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Soldier of Macedon 02-02-2011 07:57 PM

First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.

Pelister 02-03-2011 01:28 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87933]First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.[/QUOTE]

Your spot on SoM> The looseness and the vagueness of the term 'Hellenic' is problematic enough. But then these New Greeks add the term 'Greek' to it, 'Greek' by 'religion' (although Christians had no choice), 'Greek' by 'nationality' (again, most never had a choice, they were invaded), and 'Greek' by 'sentiment' and 'consciousness'. The region is swinning in abstraction deliberately created by these New Greeks to write themselves in where they don't exist. There are many Greek historians who like to point out the 'consciousness' of this village or that village, even though there has never been a single piece of evidence proving the so called 'consciousness' of a Macedonian as being 'Greek'. Even the ones that fought with the invading Cretans were actually bought with money, and this has been proven. Nick Anastasovski in his book, [I]'The Contest for Macedonian Identity[/I]' has proven how much of a misconception it has been to use a particular Christian jurisdiction (and its school) as a measuring tool of the inhabitants so called 'Greekness'. (Voltron you would do well to read it). Neither the jurisdiction of the Church nor the presence of a school in a neighouring language affected the village at the most basic level of unit - the family. The language remained Macedonian, and so did their customs.

Voltron 02-03-2011 06:22 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87933]First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.[/QUOTE]

SOM, like I said before religion is just one of the aspects that I mentioned. It was in reference to the population exchange with Turkey.
Greeks are Greek Orthodox Christians as well as others no doubt in the Byzantine / Ottoman Empire.

In regards to " consciousness " that was in reference to how the [B][U]Arvanites themselves claim to be[/U], [/B]not me or you. Who are we to deny what they feel ? The road to self-determiniation is a two way street. It does not apply to one but not for another.

Regarding Macedonians and Turks that is another issue not related to this converstation regarding Arvanites. Im not being rude about it but want to avoid going off in a complete tangent.

Voltron 02-03-2011 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87949]Your spot on SoM> The looseness and the vagueness of the term 'Hellenic' is problematic enough. But then these New Greeks add the term 'Greek' to it, 'Greek' by 'religion' (although Christians had no choice), 'Greek' by 'nationality' (again, most never had a choice, they were invaded), and 'Greek' by 'sentiment' and 'consciousness'. The region is swinning in abstraction deliberately created by these New Greeks to write themselves in where they don't exist. There are many Greek historians who like to point out the 'consciousness' of this village or that village, even though there has never been a single piece of evidence proving the so called 'consciousness' of a Macedonian as being 'Greek'. Even the ones that fought with the invading Cretans were actually bought with money, and this has been proven. Nick Anastasovski in his book, [I]'The Contest for Macedonian Identity[/I]' has proven how much of a misconception it has been to use a particular Christian jurisdiction (and its school) as a measuring tool of the inhabitants so called 'Greekness'. (Voltron you would do well to read it). Neither the jurisdiction of the Church nor the presence of a school in a neighouring language affected the village at the most basic level of unit - the family. The language remained Macedonian, and so did their customs.[/QUOTE]

Its problematic for you because it causes a short circuit in your thinking process. It does not compute and probably never will. You have a different outlook very similar to how todays Albanians view themselves. It is based on today's perception of what it means to be someone and does not take into consideration evolution of people, cultures and time. You make everything sound like its based on blood, dna, racial purity and who knows what else. Look further into your past and maybe it will start to make sense to you. Only a couple millenia has passed by, surely your not expecting everything to remain stagnant ?

To claim we dont exist or are a fabrication of westerners is utterly ridiculous. I dont take it seriously and hope you will grow out of it sometime soon.

julie 02-03-2011 08:35 AM

Voltron, what is my ethnicity ?

Voltron 02-03-2011 08:37 AM

[QUOTE=julie;87986]Voltron, what is my ethnicity ?[/QUOTE]

Macedonian plain and simple Julie. Dont let these "sometimes" heated exchanges bother you.
Everybody is entitled to feel what they want and this is no exception.

Orfej 02-03-2011 09:58 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87969]
In regards to " consciousness " that was in reference to how the [B][U]Arvanites themselves claim to be[/U], [/B]not me or you. Who are we to deny what they feel ? The road to self-determiniation is a two way street. It does not apply to one but not for another.
[/QUOTE]

So we started playing on the "consciousness" card! Aside the well known fact that there were no groups on the Balkans who had an ethnic consciousness before the 18/19 century i will tell you the bigger problem that you face when you use "consciousness" as an argument.

The problem is that to claim that you are a Greek you need to base that claim on something. The definition of ethnicity is clear:
[QUOTE]An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, [B]through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[/B][1][2] [3][/QUOTE]

Except for the common religion, which is common for every Orthodox Christian( including the Macedonians,Bulgarians,Serbs,Romanians etc) i don't see any other criteria that the Arvanites fulfill to be considered as Greeks! In fact the Arvanites may claim that they are aliens(:alien:) even though they don't speak like aliens, don't look like aliens, don't dress like aliens, don't share the same history with the aliens and those claims will have the same credibility as the claims that they are Greeks.

Voltron 02-03-2011 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=Orfej;88000]So we started playing on the "consciousness" card! Aside the well known fact that there were no groups on the Balkans who had an ethnic consciousness before the 18/19 century i will tell you the bigger problem that you face when you use "consciousness" as an argument.

The problem is that to claim that you are a Greek you need to base that claim on something. The definition of ethnicity is clear:


Except for the common religion, which is common for every Orthodox Christian( including the Macedonians,Bulgarians,Serbs,Romanians etc) i don't see any other criteria that the Arvanites fulfill to be considered as Greeks! In fact the Arvanites may claim that they are aliens(:alien:) even though they don't speak like aliens, don't look like aliens, don't dress like aliens, don't share the same history with the aliens and those claims will have the same credibility as the claims that they are Greeks.[/QUOTE]

So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ? Am I understanding you correctly ? How many years back can you trace your family Orfej ? Can you pass that mark ? Today, Arvanites define themselves as Greeks, key word being [U][B]Today[/B][/U]. Now if you want to sit here and split hairs then knock yourself out.

They [B]self-identify[/B] themselves as Greeks, shed their blood for the Hellenic cause, speak Greek, belong to G.O.C and live in the same area with us Greeks. What else do you want ? We treat them as our own and they dont deserve anything less than that.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2011 08:25 PM

[QUOTE="Voltron"]So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ?[/QUOTE]
Greece hasn't existed for 700 years. Re-word your argument to make sense and reflect reality.

Onur 02-03-2011 08:31 PM

[FONT="Verdana"][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87652]You're definition of Hellenic ethnicity is quite interesting. An Albanian (or whoever else, for that matter) who considered Greek a foreign tongue but happened to find himself within the borders of the newly created Greek state is a 'Hellene', yet bonafide Greek-speaking families that converted to Islam don't make the Hellenic cut. You base your definition largely on religion, which makes sense given the way the Hellenic identity has developed since its adoption by the newly created Greek state in the 19th century.[/QUOTE]

SOM, let me give you the one and only exception for that policy of Greeks;

[QUOTE][B]Human Rights Watch document: Greece - The Turks of Western Thrace
[/B]
The government`s refusal to accept the minority`s Turkish identity has ranged from banning civic organizations bearing the adjective "Turkish" in their titles to prosecuting individuals who publicly identified the minority as "Turkish". Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" to describe the Turkish minority. In November 1987, the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which the Union of Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace and the Union of Turkish Youth of Komotini were dissolved. The court held that the word "Turkish" referred to citizens of Turkey and could not be used to describe citizens of Greece, and that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Muslims endangered public order. More recently, in August 1996, Mr. Rasim Hid, a teacher at a minority primary school, was transferred by the state-appointed secretary general of the region from the city of Xanthi to a mountain region of Rodopi for using the term "Turkish school" in a teachers meeting. In June 1997, twelve ethnic Turkish teachers were given a suspended sentence of eight months, pending appeal, because they signed a union document that included the term, "Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace". They had been indicted under Articles 188(participating in an association the aims of which are contrary to criminal provisions) and 192(inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other) of the Greek Penal Code.

[url]http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greec991.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

So, this means that the Greeks who accepted muslim religion cannot be considered as Greeks anymore and they should be Turks only as Voltron says but according to Greek court, Greek politicians and their Greek policy, all the muslim people in Thrace are definitely the children of Hellenes and they cannot be Turks!!! If they express themselves as Turks, it`s considered as a crime of which needs to be severely punished!!!

See the irony here?[/FONT]


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