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-   -   1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3841)

Voltron 01-28-2011 11:42 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;87472]You meant the time when German king kicked out by Brits to bring Venizelos in charge?

I was referring to 1820s and 1890s in that post. The time when Arvanites killed their muslim kinsmen besides Turks in Morea and when the christian Greeks massacred muslim Greeks beside Turks in Crete. Thats what i called as "madness". So, read the rest of that post.

But for the objectivity, i can say that the Greek invasion of Anatolia in 1919(mostly Arvanites, again! read this thread) was the primary event which encouraged people to create new Turkey.[/QUOTE]

What about Turkey,s madness? Btw do you see me refer to Turks as Laz, Circassian, Slav, Arnaut, etc.? They are Turks, simple. You should know better.

Onur 01-28-2011 02:11 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87474]What about Turkey,s madness? Btw do you see me refer to Turks as Laz, Circassian, Slav, Arnaut, etc.? They are Turks, simple. You should know better.[/QUOTE]

There was no madness between Turks here unlike in Greece. There was some kind of madness between Armenians and the rest of people in Anatolia but thats all. In Greece, Arnauts and Greeks killed their own kinsmen only because of religious difference and thats madness in my book.

The mentality difference between Turkey and Greece is, neither Arnauts, Pomaks, Karakachans nor Circassians in Turkey doesn't say that they are more Turks than others and they don't claim that they are descended from central Asian Turks. They know who they are and why they are here in Turkey.

Even some part of Cretan immigrants says that they are Greeks and spoke Greek only 100 years ago cuz it`s not a taboo here. Can Turkish christians do the same in Greece? Hell no. Turkish christian writer, Karakasidu tried to say that about 400.000 of one million immigrants from population exchange was only speaking Turkish and they were Turks not Greeks and you know what happened next. They thrashed her car, broke her windows, newspapers published all addresses of her properties in Greece and US to encourage people to destroy it. She also got death threats. Am i wrong?

Voltron 01-28-2011 03:28 PM

[QUOTE]There was no madness between Turks here unlike in Greece. There was some kind of madness between Armenians and the rest of people in Anatolia but thats all. In Greece, Arnauts and Greeks killed their own kinsmen only because of religious difference and thats madness in my book.[/QUOTE]

Some kind ? Systematic extermination is "some kind" of madness ? Thats all ? So its ok if you take somebody out but as long as its not one of your own kind. Right ? You probably dont mean it, your just caught up trying to defend your position.

Muslim Greeks are not my kinsmen. We dont honor them. They were weak, they compromised themselves out of pure self interests. They got their sunets and turned their backs on where they came from. They are Turks now, pure and simple.

[QUOTE]The mentality difference between Turkey and Greece is, neither Arnauts, Pomaks, Karakachans nor Circassians in Turkey doesn't say that they are more Turks than others and they don't claim that they are descended from central Asian Turks. They know who they are and why they are here in Turkey.[/QUOTE]

There is no difference in mentality. Stop lying.

[QUOTE]Even some part of Cretan immigrants says that they are Greeks and spoke Greek only 100 years ago cuz it`s not a taboo here. Can Turkish christians do the same in Greece? Hell no. Turkish christian writer, Karakasidu tried to say that about 400.000 of one million immigrants from population exchange was only speaking Turkish and they were Turks not Greeks and you know what happened next. They thrashed her car, broke her windows, newspapers published all addresses of her properties in Greece and US to encourage people to destroy it. She also got death threats. Am i wrong?[/QUOTE]

Turkish Christians ? So why did you send them over to us then Onur ? If they were " Turks ". Your really surprising me Onur.

George S. 01-28-2011 04:01 PM

Voltron yoou forget that the greeks are more resentfull against the albanians.Macedonians have proved they are cable of working with anyone provided they behave themselves in the right way.THe greeks find it hard after the BS that the greeks are ethinically pure,they find it hard to accept it in practice.Who gives a shit, the albanians have a right to express themselves in albanian.Who is greece to tell people how to express themselves unless they are nazis.

Voltron 01-28-2011 04:04 PM

George this ethnically pure accusation is really overblown. Who really says this ? Tell me.

Voltron 01-28-2011 04:20 PM

Sorry for the off topic with Onur, Just to get back on topic I asked below the following.

How many Albanians are employed in ROM's military today ? Are we to suggest there are no Macedonians due to the fact you have Albanian regiments enlisted ?

TrueMacedonian 01-28-2011 05:18 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87460]How many Albanians are employed in ROM's military today ? Are we to deduce there are no Macedonians due to the fact you have Albanian regiments enlisted ? I dont get the topic of this thread.

Mark Mazower had a listing of Slav toponyms in Peloponeese Greece. I heard it was pretty good. I dont remember the title of the book. Anybody know ?[/QUOTE]


Maybe you should go back to page 1 and read the first post.

Voltron 01-28-2011 05:47 PM

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;87502]Maybe you should go back to page 1 and read the first post.[/QUOTE]

I did, its obvious you dont know the difference between Arvanite and Albanian.
Post me sources where it shows Albanians were the majority in mainland Greece.
Again, how is this not applicable to ROM if not moreso?

Soldier of Macedon 01-28-2011 09:41 PM

Are you kidding me? What is the difference between an Albanian and an Arvanite? They are more akin to each other than the Greeks and Cypriots are. Even in 1814 the Albanians of Greece were calling themselves 'Shqiptar' (or 'Skipetar' as transliterated below):

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1748&highlight=skipetar[/url]

The names 'Albanian' and 'Arvanite' are not native to today's Albanians, the first is Latin and the second is a Greek transliteration. The Turks used the word Arnauts, as did others in the region, including the Albanians themselves.
[QUOTE="Voltron"]Turkish Christians ? So why did you send them over to us then Onur ? If they were " Turks ".[/QUOTE]
Because they were Christians, the exchange was based on religion. It seems apparent that you use the same criteria for Greek ethnicity.

George S. 01-28-2011 10:16 PM

voltron the propaganda coming out of greece is state driven & it's telling people not to compromise on anything that's what the macedonians need as they are too compromising & givin too easily.The truth is that the greeks won't admit to anything even if their life depended on it.It can only happen in greece that is to dictate to people not to speak a language i'm sure the albanians don't care what they are told & they are going to speak albanian.

Onur 01-29-2011 09:01 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87483]
Muslim Greeks are not my kinsmen. We dont honor them. They were weak, they compromised themselves out of pure self interests. They got their sunets and turned their backs on where they came from. They are Turks now, pure and simple.
[/QUOTE]
We can see the hints of your standard Greek indoctrination here.

Whats religion got to do with ethnicity? People doesn't become something else just because they changed their religion. For example, protestant or Catholic Greeks, they aren't Greek anymore since they are not orthodox? What about atheist, deist or even pagan Greeks who worship pagan gods? They aren't Greek anymore either?

Then tell me who is Greek in your book? Orthodox Turkish christians, Albanians, Vlachs, Gagauz are Greek to you just because they are orthodox??? Whats your criteria?

Voltron 01-29-2011 02:59 PM

Atheist, Deist, or Paganism have Hellenic traditions. [U][B]Islam does not[/B][/U].
Even if Pericles himself was to convert to a muslim we would no longer consider him part of our [U]ethnos[/U]. It has nothing to do with genes, blood, dna, etc.

We often get accused of claiming everything under the sun as Greek, but you wont ever here a peep out of us regarding Sinan or Mehmet the conqueror. That should say something.

Why is it that Ottoman understands what I am saying and you dont ? Its the last time I am explaining this to you.

Voltron 01-29-2011 03:08 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87521]Are you kidding me? What is the difference between an Albanian and an Arvanite? They are more akin to each other than the Greeks and Cypriots are. Even in 1814 the Albanians of Greece were calling themselves 'Shqiptar' (or 'Skipetar' as transliterated below):

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1748&highlight=skipetar[/url]

The names 'Albanian' and 'Arvanite' are not native to today's Albanians, the first is Latin and the second is a Greek transliteration. The Turks used the word Arnauts, as did others in the region, including the Albanians themselves.

Because they were Christians, the exchange was based on religion. It seems apparent that you use the same criteria for Greek ethnicity.[/QUOTE]

No SOM I am not kidding. Do you know when the Arvanites settled in Greece ? That link you posted does not shock me. Its stated in the wiki link if you would like to read it. Its not a long read. If you see something you disagree with please let me know. Its pretty balanced.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites[/url]

Arvanites (Greek: Αρβανίτες, Arvanitika: Arbėreshė or Αρbε̰ρεσ̈ε̰) are a population group in Greece who traditionally speak Arvanitika, a dialect of the Albanian language. [U]They settled in Greece during the late Middle Ages and were the dominant population element of some regions of the Peloponnese and Attica until the 19th century.[/U][1] [U]Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks[/U][2][3][4] [U]as the result of a process of assimilation, and do not consider themselves to belong to Albania or the Albanian nation[/U].[5] They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbėror (in their language); the communities in [B]northern Greece also use the term Shqiptar[/B] (the same used by Albanians of Albania), [B][U]a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians[/U][/B].[3] Arvanitika is in a state of attrition due to language shift towards Greek and large-scale internal migration to the cities and subsequent intermingling of the population during the 20th century.

Regarding the last comment, it was a rhetorical question directed to Onur.

Voltron 01-29-2011 03:11 PM

Also, who is to say there werent Greeks that spoke Albanian and thus an Arvanite ? That is also a possibility that many Greeks believe. There are a lot of grey areas in the Balkans, to try to prove racial purity is just silly.

TrueMacedonian 01-29-2011 04:00 PM

[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/BalkanWars.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/TheBalkanWars141.jpg[/IMG]

Voltron 01-29-2011 04:09 PM

They shed blood for the Hellenic cause. We honor them as our own. Even if their origins are Albanian. Find a Suliot today and tell them they are an Albanian. Then come and post about your experience.

TrueMacedonian 01-29-2011 06:33 PM

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;74563]I want to prove a point with this topic because it is important to understand what language was being spoken in the Modern Greco army,,,,and navy, so here's some more info to add to elaborate why this Parnassos article was bitching about Albanian being spoken widely throughout the Modern Greco army; (these are old posts but relevent to the topic)

[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes31.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes33.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes34.jpg[/IMG]

This book was published in 1914. Now this is what Venizelos said. This book was published in 1920!

[img]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Venizelos/Venizelos.jpg[/img]
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Venizelos346-1.jpg[/IMG]

I mean how much more can we honestly say here? Considering the facts I would have to wager that Romaika was nothing more than a foreign language for more than half the population of Modern 'greece' in the early 20th century. Where is this hellenism? Where are the hellenes?

The ufologists in A'm'AC have alot to explain here.
:alien:[/QUOTE]

What if I ask the offspring of these Albanians mentioned above? Would I get an honest answer or one full of BS like you?

Voltron 01-29-2011 06:44 PM

You still dont get it. Pls continue...

George S. 01-29-2011 07:04 PM

Voltron even though you personally admit to a few things the greek government will never admit to those things such as they owe a great debt of gratitude to the albanians & other
minorities for propping up greece all these years.It's really shocking to see all those myths busted by TM that all that is in greece is homogenous & pure when in fact it's the opposite.How can the ordinary greek citizen put up with shit & accept the BS from the government.THere should be riots in the streets etc.

Soldier of Macedon 01-30-2011 06:35 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87582]They shed blood for the Hellenic cause. We honor them as our own. Even if their origins are Albanian. Find a Suliot today and tell them they are an Albanian. Then come and post about your experience.[/QUOTE]
You're definition of Hellenic ethnicity is quite interesting. An Albanian (or whoever else, for that matter) who considered Greek a foreign tongue but happened to find himself within the borders of the newly created Greek state is a 'Hellene', yet bonafide Greek-speaking families that converted to Islam don't make the Hellenic cut. You base your definition largely on religion, which makes sense given the way the Hellenic identity has developed since its adoption by the newly created Greek state in the 19th century.

Pelister 01-30-2011 08:19 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;87542]We can see the hints of your standard Greek indoctrination here.

Whats religion got to do with ethnicity? People doesn't become something else just because they changed their religion. For example, protestant or Catholic Greeks, they aren't Greek anymore since they are not orthodox? What about atheist, deist or even pagan Greeks who worship pagan gods? They aren't Greek anymore either?

Then tell me who is Greek in your book? Orthodox Turkish christians, Albanians, Vlachs, Gagauz are Greek to you just because they are orthodox??? Whats your criteria?[/QUOTE]

Onur, you noticed something about Voltron that caught my attention. The New Greeks are very clever at writing 'Greeks' into places where in fact they don't exist. The way they do it is as you have pointed out. They categorize the term 'Greek' as loosely as possible to net as many as possible. I've noticed that the term 'Greek' takes on up to three different meanings in the one paper. It is precisely how they hide the ethnic identity of various people and write in 'Greeks' where none exist. This is how they spread their lies.

Soldier of Macedon 01-31-2011 12:37 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87572]If you see something you disagree with please let me know. Its pretty balanced.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites[/url]

Arvanites (Greek: Αρβανίτες, Arvanitika: Arbėreshė or Αρbε̰ρεσ̈ε̰) are a population group in Greece who traditionally speak Arvanitika, a dialect of the Albanian language. [U]They settled in Greece during the late Middle Ages and [B][COLOR="Red"]have since been[/COLOR][/B] the dominant population element of some regions of the Peloponnese [B][COLOR="Red"]and several across Epirus,[/COLOR][/B] Attica [COLOR="red"][B]and others[/B][/COLOR]. [/U] [U][B][COLOR="red"]Most[/COLOR][/B] Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks[/U] [U]as the result of [B][COLOR="red"]deliberate assimilation, disregard for ethnic self-identity, and a lack of care shown for ethno-linguistic minority groups by the Greek state[/COLOR][/B]. [COLOR="Red"][B]Hence[/B][/COLOR], [B][COLOR="Red"]they no longer[/COLOR][/B] consider themselves to belong to Albania or the Albanian nation[/U]. They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbėror (in their [B][COLOR="red"]Albanian[/COLOR][/B] language), [B][COLOR="red"]but even as late as the 19th century the collective reference of Shqiptar was still in use[/COLOR][/B]; [B][COLOR="Red"]and[/COLOR][/B] the communities in [B]northern Greece [B][COLOR="Red"]still[/COLOR][/B] use the term Shqiptar[/B] (the same used by Albanians of Albania), [B][U]a term [B][COLOR="Red"]which is now[/COLOR][/B] disliked by all the other Arvanites, who, [B][COLOR="red"]unfortunately[/COLOR][/B], also resent being called Albanians[/U][/B], [B][COLOR="Red"]despite their ethnic origins[/COLOR][/B].[/QUOTE]
More balanced now, couldn't be bothered fixing the grammar, who writes these joke articles? Anyway, this here below is quite cunning:
[QUOTE]Arvanitika is in a state of attrition due to language shift towards Greek and large-scale internal migration to the cities and subsequent intermingling of the population during the 20th century.[/QUOTE]
A state of attrition and language shift towards Greek? That almost makes it sounds like they are dialects of the same language or branches of the same linguistic family, which they aren't. They could have just said that Arvanitika has accumulated a large number of Greek loan words, and continues to do so, because the Greek government is too racist to allow a people to learn their native tongue. How about that for the truth? Or is there something which I have written that cannot be corroborated by facts?

TrueMacedonian 01-31-2011 12:47 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87715]Onur, you noticed something about Voltron that caught my attention. The New Greeks are very clever at writing 'Greeks' into places where in fact they don't exist. The way they do it is as you have pointed out. They categorize the term 'Greek' as loosely as possible to net as many as possible. I've noticed that the term 'Greek' takes on up to three different meanings in the one paper. It is precisely how they hide the ethnic identity of various people and write in 'Greeks' where none exist. This is how they spread their lies.[/QUOTE]

Exactly gentlemen. Recently someone brought something to my attention of the one poster in A'm'UCK's forum who has 5 different screen names and makes believe his forum has alot users who "de-coded" the Kresna Uprising with the House of Commons papers I posted on here. Unfortunately for half-a-brain he forgets to include religious affiliations as well as the one first-hand account of a Captain, a page half-a-brain even posted mind you, that mentions the chiefs of the Macedonian insurrections. All of them, including the Macedonian Brigands whose names he reveals, from Macedonia. Half-a-brain also ignores some key points of the pages he even posts. I will post these pages tomorrow.
But that is what these half-a-brains do. They post things that say "Greek" and "Bulgarian" in them, salivate, and think they scored another goal. But they ultimately, as per usual, fail to take so many things into consideration because they are that stupid. I guess like Voltron. Making up an ethnicity out of Albanians and Vlachs as he goes along. But of course if you're Orthodox in grcija you are definitely a fullblown mega "greek" :21:

Daskalot 01-31-2011 03:30 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87572]No SOM I am not kidding. Do you know when the Arvanites settled in Greece ? That link you posted does not shock me. Its stated in the wiki link if you would like to read it. Its not a long read. If you see something you disagree with please let me know. Its pretty balanced.
[/QUOTE]
Firstly the Albanians did not settle in Greece, they settled in the Morea. Greece at the time was not yet constructed.
And secondly, the link SoM gave you clearly shows what the Albanians of that time called themselves in thier own language. And these Albanians at the time where inhabiting the territory which became the first modern Greek state, ie the Morea.

Voltron 01-31-2011 05:23 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87652]You're definition of Hellenic ethnicity is quite interesting. An Albanian (or whoever else, for that matter) who considered Greek a foreign tongue but happened to find himself within the borders of the newly created Greek state is a 'Hellene', yet bonafide Greek-speaking families that converted to Islam don't make the Hellenic cut. You base your definition largely on religion, which makes sense given the way the Hellenic identity has developed since its adoption by the newly created Greek state in the 19th century.[/QUOTE]

I base my definition on the definition of [U]Ethnos[/U]. Religion is just one of the components that I had used as a reference. [B]Islam[/B] surely does not cut the grade. Whoever converted did so out of weakness, self-interests and as far as I am concerned we did a good thing in shipping them out to Turkey. They are Turks now, you can ask them yourselves. Hellenic identity was reinforced and cemented with a Christian Byzantine outlook, as you mentioned espescially after the population exchange. Byzantine heritage is a continuation of Roman and by extension Ancient Greece.

Today certain people are trying to use todays brush to paint yesterdays picture. It is not possible, since the variables and circumstances are completely different. To base anything on racial purity, espescially in the balkans is pure comedy to say the least.

Voltron 01-31-2011 05:28 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;87734]Firstly the Albanians did not settle in Greece, they settled in the Morea. Greece at the time was not yet constructed.
And secondly, the link SoM gave you clearly shows what the Albanians of that time called themselves in thier own language. And these Albanians at the time where inhabiting the territory which became the first modern Greek state, ie the Morea.[/QUOTE]

Daskalot, I also provided a link that made reference to how they referred to themselves and it did not contradict the one SOM provided. Again, you can ask them yourselves. I am willing to bet that if you were to imply to an Arvanite that they are Albanian in most cases you will find yourself picking up your teeth from the ground. They are one of the most fervent patriots in our modern history. They have a Hellenic consciousness and to me that is enough. Not to mention the half of millenia they reside in Greece. You are correct, Morea was their most common place of residence.

Voltron 01-31-2011 05:33 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87728]
A state of attrition and language shift towards Greek? That almost makes it sounds like they are dialects of the same language or branches of the same linguistic family, which they aren't. They could have just said that Arvanitika has accumulated a large number of Greek loan words, and continues to do so, because the Greek government is too racist to allow a people to learn their native tongue. How about that for the truth? Or is there something which I have written that cannot be corroborated by facts?[/QUOTE]

SOM, I give the benefit of the doubt regarding Hellinization policies in Macedonia. I read and I learn. Regarding Arvanties, I believe you are out of your element. What you stated is wrong and I am calling you on it. You would have to prove that Arvanties were forcefully Hellenized and their language obstructed to be spoken.

Voltron 01-31-2011 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=George S.;87608]Voltron even though you personally admit to a few things the greek government will never admit to those things such as they owe a great debt of gratitude to the albanians & other
minorities for propping up greece all these years.It's really shocking to see all those myths busted by TM that all that is in greece is homogenous & pure when in fact it's the opposite.How can the ordinary greek citizen put up with shit & accept the BS from the government.THere should be riots in the streets etc.[/QUOTE]

They are not Albanians George. Again, they do not identify themselves as such. As you mentioned, you do not appreciate someone telling you what you are. Dont do the same to other people. Homogenous does not mean purity.

Voltron 01-31-2011 05:41 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87715]Onur, you noticed something about Voltron that caught my attention. The New Greeks are very clever at writing 'Greeks' into places where in fact they don't exist. The way they do it is as you have pointed out. They categorize the term 'Greek' as loosely as possible to net as many as possible. I've noticed that the term 'Greek' takes on up to three different meanings in the one paper. It is precisely how they hide the ethnic identity of various people and write in 'Greeks' where none exist. This is how they spread their lies.[/QUOTE]

Elaborate on the three different meanings. Your reference to us as " New " in each of your posts is only making you look uneducated, ignorant, arrogant and just out of touch with reality. I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder mate.

DirtyCodingHabitz 01-31-2011 07:01 AM

Try quoting people in 1 post.

Soldier of Macedon 01-31-2011 08:16 AM

[QUOTE="Voltron"]I base my definition on the definition of [U]Ethnos[/U]. Religion is just one of the components that I had used as a reference.[/QUOTE]
You couldn't provide an adequate interpretation of 'ethnos' if your life depended on it. What else do you have aside from religion? Surely not language and heritage given the Vlachs, Albanians, Macedonians, etc that now pretend to be 'Greeks' after almost 200 years of non-recognition by the Greek state? You cannot justify your version of 'ethnos' in any credible way when you rely primarily (and in some cases solely) on religion and disregard other key factors.
[QUOTE]Hellenic identity was reinforced and cemented with a Christian Byzantine outlook, as you mentioned espescially after the population exchange.[/QUOTE]
It's like saying fire was reinforced with water, but, whatever.
[QUOTE]Regarding Arvanties, I believe you are out of your element. What you stated is wrong and I am calling you on it.[/QUOTE]
I am in my element, I don't have to be Greek or Albanian. And you're calling jack, this isn't a game of poker.
[QUOTE]You would have to prove that Arvanties were forcefully Hellenized and their language obstructed to be spoken.[/QUOTE]
Well, let's see. There is no doubt that at the eve of the creation of Greece in the 19th century, Albanians constituted a significant element of the population and considered Greek a foreign tongue. Can you show me how many schools, newspapers, churches and other institutions that have been allowed to use the Albanian (Arvanite or whatever) language in Greece since then? Did not at least some of the thousands of Albanians in Greece want their children to speak their native tongue? Can you cite any examples of government assistance or support?

You seem to live in a world of your own sometimes, it's time you start dealing with the xenophobic elements of your recent history.

Voltron 01-31-2011 08:50 AM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87752]You couldn't provide an adequate interpretation of 'ethnos' if your life depended on it. What else do you have aside from religion? Surely not language and heritage given the Vlachs, Albanians, Macedonians, etc that now pretend to be 'Greeks' after almost 200 years of non-recognition by the Greek state? You cannot justify your version of 'ethnos' in any credible way when you rely primarily (and in some cases solely) on religion and disregard other key factors. [/QUOTE]

Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history. When referring to the above groups its always within the topic and context of the thread in question. If you cannot understand that they were minority groups that have assimilated to the Hellenic Ethnos then I will no longer even bother. I cant bet my life on the definition of Ethnos ? OK.

[QUOTE]Well, let's see. There is no doubt that at the eve of the creation of Greece in the 19th century, Albanians constituted a significant element of the population and considered Greek a foreign tongue. Can you show me how many schools, newspapers, churches and other institutions that have been allowed to use the Albanian (Arvanite or whatever) language in Greece since then? Did not at least some of the thousands of Albanians in Greece want their children to speak their native tongue? Can you cite any examples of government assistance or support?[/QUOTE]

Its [U]Arvanites[/U] for the last time and they consisted a significant element [U]only in certain areas[/U] of Greece. Wasnt Gruevski branding Albanians as Macedonians on their passports ? Post proof of your allegations.

Pelister 01-31-2011 07:58 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87740]Elaborate on the three different meanings. Your reference to us as " New " in each of your posts is only making you look uneducated, ignorant, arrogant and just out of touch with reality. I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder mate.[/QUOTE]

I think the term 'New' as in 'New Greek' is very appropriate. I don't think its making me 'look' uneducated. My purpose here is not to look educated in any case. Rather I am here to expose your so called adopted 'heritage' for what it really is - a sham. I think there are serious problems with your identity, if we consider that contemporary 'Greeks' from the 19th century were speaking Albanian, and if we consider that the [I]Greek national dance[/I] in front of the British queen was an Albanian one. Where were the ethnic Greeks? On another note what never ceases to amaze me is the facile triumphalism you New Greeks display over the conquest of new territories, including Macedonian territory; and while you 'Others in disguise' were slaughtering Macedonians wholesale, the brutality of the invading Greek regime against the Macedonians has only been matched by the gentle, mischievious discretion of your rotten state in everything else. One thing is essential for the generation of such lies and distortions on such a massive scale, and that is naked conquest. You acquired Macedonian territory by force, and you held it by force in violation of international law, therefore the 'claims' of the invading 'Greek' to Macedonian territory will always be legally defective.

Onur 02-01-2011 08:24 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87715]The New Greeks are very clever at writing 'Greeks' into places where in fact they don't exist. The way they do it is as you have pointed out. They categorize the term 'Greek' as loosely as possible to net as many as possible. I've noticed that the term 'Greek' takes on up to three different meanings in the one paper. It is precisely how they hide the ethnic identity of various people and write in 'Greeks' where none exist. This is how they spread their lies.[/QUOTE]

Yes Pelister. I recently saw another example of this from an article. I was going to post here but created a new thread instead;

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=87843[/url]

Stojacanec 02-02-2011 12:24 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87740]Elaborate on the three different meanings. Your reference to us as " New " in each of your posts is only making you look uneducated, ignorant, arrogant and just out of touch with reality. I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder mate.[/QUOTE]

Voltron, the term "New Greece" was a common term written in documents between various government correspondence especially druing the 1920s and 1930s.

This reference made to Aegean Macedonia.

Do you agree?

Why some 80 years later that region is now being dubbed as "one and only Greek" or "Macedonia 4000 years of greek history"

Voltron 02-02-2011 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=Stojacanec;87884]Voltron, the term "New Greece" was a common term written in documents between various government correspondence especially druing the 1920s and 1930s.

This reference made to Aegean Macedonia.

Do you agree?

Why some 80 years later that region is now being dubbed as "one and only Greek" or "Macedonia 4000 years of greek history"[/QUOTE]

I dont mind if you made a reference to New Greece Stojacanec.

Why do Serbs say Kosovo Je Srbija ? Its all relevant to where we live in. Those are chest beating slogans that we often employ in the Balkans. Its a rough neighborhood we live in. We are not like our northern counterparts. We are more nationalistic and we should consider slogans like those in the same light.

Stojacanec 02-02-2011 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87890]I dont mind if you made a reference to New Greece Stojacanec.

Why do Serbs say Kosovo Je Srbija ? Its all relevant to where we live in. Those are chest beating slogans that we often employ in the Balkans. Its a rough neighborhood we live in. We are not like our northern counterparts. We are more nationalistic and we should consider slogans like those in the same light.[/QUOTE]

Those chest beating slogans don't reconcile with how the territory was percieved 80 years ago.

I'd rather call them misinformation instead.

Nationalism has evolved quite a lot in the past 80 years.

Also Kosovo was a province of Serbia therefore the Serbs weren't wrong in saying Kosovo Je Srbija.

However, you can't say that Kosova's are Serbian because as you know most weren't ethnic Serbian.

Voltron 02-02-2011 08:34 AM

[QUOTE=Stojacanec;87898]However, you can't say that Kosova's are Serbian because as you know most weren't ethnic Serbian.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The demographics changed but the Serbian feeling did not. Yes, I understand there are differences between the two comparisons and I dont necessarily disagree with you. The essence is the same though, they are a part of balkan nationalism right or wrong.

On a side note, I thought Kosovo was a Yugoslavian province and not necessarily Serbia's.

Orfej 02-02-2011 11:03 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87755][QUOTE]

Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history. When referring to the above groups its always within the topic and context of the thread in question. If you cannot understand that they were minority groups that have assimilated to the Hellenic Ethnos then I will no longer even bother. I cant bet my life on the definition of Ethnos ? OK.
[/QUOTE]

Fool, you don't get it! The problem is not that some foreign groups were assimilated in the Greek ethnos(that happens all over the world), the problem is that those groups were being regarded as `Greeks` long before they got assimilated. So we had a situation of an `ordinary Arvanite` who spoke Albanian, had an Albanian culture and traditions, had no idea of what does the term `Hellen`means etc. What criteria you used to label these people as `Hellens` is beyond me.

Voltron 02-02-2011 11:31 AM

No, you dont get it my friend. You probably didnt even read the prior pages either.

[QUOTE]Orfej;87913]
What criteria you used to label these people as `Hellens` is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

Consciousness...


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