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Soldier of Macedon 02-02-2011 07:57 PM

First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.

Pelister 02-03-2011 01:28 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87933]First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.[/QUOTE]

Your spot on SoM> The looseness and the vagueness of the term 'Hellenic' is problematic enough. But then these New Greeks add the term 'Greek' to it, 'Greek' by 'religion' (although Christians had no choice), 'Greek' by 'nationality' (again, most never had a choice, they were invaded), and 'Greek' by 'sentiment' and 'consciousness'. The region is swinning in abstraction deliberately created by these New Greeks to write themselves in where they don't exist. There are many Greek historians who like to point out the 'consciousness' of this village or that village, even though there has never been a single piece of evidence proving the so called 'consciousness' of a Macedonian as being 'Greek'. Even the ones that fought with the invading Cretans were actually bought with money, and this has been proven. Nick Anastasovski in his book, [I]'The Contest for Macedonian Identity[/I]' has proven how much of a misconception it has been to use a particular Christian jurisdiction (and its school) as a measuring tool of the inhabitants so called 'Greekness'. (Voltron you would do well to read it). Neither the jurisdiction of the Church nor the presence of a school in a neighouring language affected the village at the most basic level of unit - the family. The language remained Macedonian, and so did their customs.

Voltron 02-03-2011 06:22 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87933]First you refer to their religion and now it's their consciousness! Tell me how a family that has only ever spoken Macedonian or Turkish can 'develop' a Greek consciousness? By being Christians? That is all you have, and it is blatantly pathetic and weak. Look for real ethnic Greeks, and not those conjured by the racist policies of your church and government.[/QUOTE]

SOM, like I said before religion is just one of the aspects that I mentioned. It was in reference to the population exchange with Turkey.
Greeks are Greek Orthodox Christians as well as others no doubt in the Byzantine / Ottoman Empire.

In regards to " consciousness " that was in reference to how the [B][U]Arvanites themselves claim to be[/U], [/B]not me or you. Who are we to deny what they feel ? The road to self-determiniation is a two way street. It does not apply to one but not for another.

Regarding Macedonians and Turks that is another issue not related to this converstation regarding Arvanites. Im not being rude about it but want to avoid going off in a complete tangent.

Voltron 02-03-2011 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87949]Your spot on SoM> The looseness and the vagueness of the term 'Hellenic' is problematic enough. But then these New Greeks add the term 'Greek' to it, 'Greek' by 'religion' (although Christians had no choice), 'Greek' by 'nationality' (again, most never had a choice, they were invaded), and 'Greek' by 'sentiment' and 'consciousness'. The region is swinning in abstraction deliberately created by these New Greeks to write themselves in where they don't exist. There are many Greek historians who like to point out the 'consciousness' of this village or that village, even though there has never been a single piece of evidence proving the so called 'consciousness' of a Macedonian as being 'Greek'. Even the ones that fought with the invading Cretans were actually bought with money, and this has been proven. Nick Anastasovski in his book, [I]'The Contest for Macedonian Identity[/I]' has proven how much of a misconception it has been to use a particular Christian jurisdiction (and its school) as a measuring tool of the inhabitants so called 'Greekness'. (Voltron you would do well to read it). Neither the jurisdiction of the Church nor the presence of a school in a neighouring language affected the village at the most basic level of unit - the family. The language remained Macedonian, and so did their customs.[/QUOTE]

Its problematic for you because it causes a short circuit in your thinking process. It does not compute and probably never will. You have a different outlook very similar to how todays Albanians view themselves. It is based on today's perception of what it means to be someone and does not take into consideration evolution of people, cultures and time. You make everything sound like its based on blood, dna, racial purity and who knows what else. Look further into your past and maybe it will start to make sense to you. Only a couple millenia has passed by, surely your not expecting everything to remain stagnant ?

To claim we dont exist or are a fabrication of westerners is utterly ridiculous. I dont take it seriously and hope you will grow out of it sometime soon.

julie 02-03-2011 08:35 AM

Voltron, what is my ethnicity ?

Voltron 02-03-2011 08:37 AM

[QUOTE=julie;87986]Voltron, what is my ethnicity ?[/QUOTE]

Macedonian plain and simple Julie. Dont let these "sometimes" heated exchanges bother you.
Everybody is entitled to feel what they want and this is no exception.

Orfej 02-03-2011 09:58 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87969]
In regards to " consciousness " that was in reference to how the [B][U]Arvanites themselves claim to be[/U], [/B]not me or you. Who are we to deny what they feel ? The road to self-determiniation is a two way street. It does not apply to one but not for another.
[/QUOTE]

So we started playing on the "consciousness" card! Aside the well known fact that there were no groups on the Balkans who had an ethnic consciousness before the 18/19 century i will tell you the bigger problem that you face when you use "consciousness" as an argument.

The problem is that to claim that you are a Greek you need to base that claim on something. The definition of ethnicity is clear:
[QUOTE]An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, [B]through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[/B][1][2] [3][/QUOTE]

Except for the common religion, which is common for every Orthodox Christian( including the Macedonians,Bulgarians,Serbs,Romanians etc) i don't see any other criteria that the Arvanites fulfill to be considered as Greeks! In fact the Arvanites may claim that they are aliens(:alien:) even though they don't speak like aliens, don't look like aliens, don't dress like aliens, don't share the same history with the aliens and those claims will have the same credibility as the claims that they are Greeks.

Voltron 02-03-2011 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=Orfej;88000]So we started playing on the "consciousness" card! Aside the well known fact that there were no groups on the Balkans who had an ethnic consciousness before the 18/19 century i will tell you the bigger problem that you face when you use "consciousness" as an argument.

The problem is that to claim that you are a Greek you need to base that claim on something. The definition of ethnicity is clear:


Except for the common religion, which is common for every Orthodox Christian( including the Macedonians,Bulgarians,Serbs,Romanians etc) i don't see any other criteria that the Arvanites fulfill to be considered as Greeks! In fact the Arvanites may claim that they are aliens(:alien:) even though they don't speak like aliens, don't look like aliens, don't dress like aliens, don't share the same history with the aliens and those claims will have the same credibility as the claims that they are Greeks.[/QUOTE]

So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ? Am I understanding you correctly ? How many years back can you trace your family Orfej ? Can you pass that mark ? Today, Arvanites define themselves as Greeks, key word being [U][B]Today[/B][/U]. Now if you want to sit here and split hairs then knock yourself out.

They [B]self-identify[/B] themselves as Greeks, shed their blood for the Hellenic cause, speak Greek, belong to G.O.C and live in the same area with us Greeks. What else do you want ? We treat them as our own and they dont deserve anything less than that.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2011 08:25 PM

[QUOTE="Voltron"]So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ?[/QUOTE]
Greece hasn't existed for 700 years. Re-word your argument to make sense and reflect reality.

Onur 02-03-2011 08:31 PM

[FONT="Verdana"][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87652]You're definition of Hellenic ethnicity is quite interesting. An Albanian (or whoever else, for that matter) who considered Greek a foreign tongue but happened to find himself within the borders of the newly created Greek state is a 'Hellene', yet bonafide Greek-speaking families that converted to Islam don't make the Hellenic cut. You base your definition largely on religion, which makes sense given the way the Hellenic identity has developed since its adoption by the newly created Greek state in the 19th century.[/QUOTE]

SOM, let me give you the one and only exception for that policy of Greeks;

[QUOTE][B]Human Rights Watch document: Greece - The Turks of Western Thrace
[/B]
The government`s refusal to accept the minority`s Turkish identity has ranged from banning civic organizations bearing the adjective "Turkish" in their titles to prosecuting individuals who publicly identified the minority as "Turkish". Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" to describe the Turkish minority. In November 1987, the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which the Union of Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace and the Union of Turkish Youth of Komotini were dissolved. The court held that the word "Turkish" referred to citizens of Turkey and could not be used to describe citizens of Greece, and that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Muslims endangered public order. More recently, in August 1996, Mr. Rasim Hid, a teacher at a minority primary school, was transferred by the state-appointed secretary general of the region from the city of Xanthi to a mountain region of Rodopi for using the term "Turkish school" in a teachers meeting. In June 1997, twelve ethnic Turkish teachers were given a suspended sentence of eight months, pending appeal, because they signed a union document that included the term, "Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace". They had been indicted under Articles 188(participating in an association the aims of which are contrary to criminal provisions) and 192(inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other) of the Greek Penal Code.

[url]http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greec991.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

So, this means that the Greeks who accepted muslim religion cannot be considered as Greeks anymore and they should be Turks only as Voltron says but according to Greek court, Greek politicians and their Greek policy, all the muslim people in Thrace are definitely the children of Hellenes and they cannot be Turks!!! If they express themselves as Turks, it`s considered as a crime of which needs to be severely punished!!!

See the irony here?[/FONT]

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2011 11:48 PM

Onur, everybody but the ignorant can see this. That was a good example. Perhaps Voltron will now respond by saying they are within Greek borders so they are an exception, lol. The truth is, get two or three of these type of Greeks together to discuss this issue and they won't agree amongst themselves. I have seen other Greeks here argue with yourself about the Turkish minority in Greece, claiming them to be Greeks. Voltron still needs to reconcile the perceptions in Greece with those he was apparently brought up with in the USA.
[QUOTE="Voltron"]Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history.[/QUOTE]
It's apparent you aren't able to digest anything that strays away from that deluded narrative you've built up in your own mind. I have never denied the existence of ethnic Greeks, I just won't refer to people of other ethnicities as ethnic Greeks.
[QUOTE]Its [U]Arvanites[/U] for the last time and they consisted a significant element [U]only in certain areas[/U] of Greece.[/QUOTE]
Don't play word games, these Albanians were found in several areas across Greece, the fact that you are trying to minimise the significance of their existence is telling, and quite in line with your bizzare interpretation of 'ethnos'.
[QUOTE]Wasnt Gruevski branding Albanians as Macedonians on their passports ? Post proof of your allegations.[/QUOTE]
Not all ethnic Macedonians are Macedonian citizens, and not all Macedonian citizens are ethnic Macedonians. The same applies for Greece. What you refer to in the above quote relates to citizenship, not ethnicity.
[QUOTE]Everybody is entitled to feel what they want and this is no exception.[/QUOTE]
A deliberately ambiguous example, which can also include Africans and Chinese walking the streets of Athens, claiming to 'feel' Greek.
[QUOTE]They self-identify themselves as Greeks[/QUOTE]
Why? They self-identified as Albanians during the war of independence?
[QUOTE].....shed their blood for the Hellenic cause.[/QUOTE]
Name a couple of Albanians who fought for the "Hellenic" cause during the 1820s/1830's, and how you came to this conclusion when there was no Hellas, and when the people that lived there themselves didn't call it as such?

osiris 02-04-2011 12:41 AM

they shed their blood for the christian religion, hellenism is what you modern arvanitoclachs grew up on thanks to the western phillhellenes and the fascist lunatic metaxas. your immediate ancestors on the other hand couldnt even imagine what hellenism was about. you are a pathetic and greedy bunch of wannabe historical big shots trying to forget your humble origins and latching on to the glory of hellas macedonia and rome. wake up to yourselves and get a life.

Voltron 02-04-2011 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;88027][FONT="Verdana"]
So, this means that the Greeks who accepted muslim religion cannot be considered as Greeks anymore and they should be Turks only as Voltron says but according to Greek court, Greek politicians and their Greek policy, all the muslim people in Thrace are definitely the children of Hellenes and they cannot be Turks!!! If they express themselves as Turks, it`s considered as a crime of which needs to be severely punished!!!

See the irony here?[/FONT][/QUOTE]

I am not a spokesperson for the Hellenic Republic Onur. So my personal distaste for Islam has nothing to do with the facts on the ground, or how Greece perceives the "minority" situation in Thrace. I would also like to point out that our Macedonian members here are not up to date with the Laussane treaty and how it applies to both our countries. You baiting them on it is really immature.

Are there Muslim Greeks ? Of course there is. Are there Pomaks in the region ? Of course there is. Are there Turks in the region ? Again, Of course there is. So why the hell should we entrap ourselves into saying they are all Turks ? This is a Turkification policy that has not stopped and even today Turkey is bribing these people into defining themselves as " Turks ". You know Goddamn well that Pomaks are not Turks yet your government does everything in its power to make them out as Turks to instill a defacto "Turkish" minority in Thrace. May I remind you that the basis of the agreement between our two countries is based on a " Muslim Minority ". Why Turkey is trying with teeth and nails to renegade on this agreement is only obvious.

How is it that the " Turkish" minority in Thrace is stable and growing in Greece and the " Rum " minority is all but non-existant in Turkey ? I wonder who kept their part of the bargain. You playing holier than though is really pathetic sometimes. You should be ashamed for even trying to bring this up.

I would like to reiterate that my view as to how I portray Muslim "Greeks" is based on my distaste for your religion. No reconciliation is necessary. Greece has to protect itself from phantom minorities springing up and it is following its part of the bargain, aside from the fact that Turkey is not. No Irony here, just the facts.

Good job in the derailment by the way.

Voltron 02-04-2011 04:29 AM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;88052]
I have never denied the existence of ethnic Greeks, I just won't refer to people of other ethnicities as ethnic Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough

[QUOTE]Don't play word games, these Albanians were found in several areas across Greece, the fact that you are trying to minimise the significance of their existence is telling, and quite in line with your bizzare interpretation of 'ethnos'.[/QUOTE]

No need for me to try and minimize anything since I do not try to tell them they are Albanians when they themselves do not self-identify as such. Which to me perfectly brings it inline with "ethnos". I dont find it bizarre at all.

[QUOTE]Not all ethnic Macedonians are Macedonian citizens, and not all Macedonian citizens are ethnic Macedonians. The same applies for Greece. What you refer to in the above quote relates to citizenship, not ethnicity.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I wasnt sure about Gruevski's intention about the passports. I just remember Albanians complaining about it. No arguement there.

[QUOTE]A deliberately ambiguous example, which can also include Africans and Chinese walking the streets of Athens, claiming to 'feel' Greek.[/QUOTE]

Of course if you isolate this statement on its own its ambiguous. It was said during a dialogue and within a wider context.

[QUOTE]Why? They self-identified as Albanians during the war of independence?[/QUOTE]

Who ?

[QUOTE]Name a couple of Albanians who fought for the "Hellenic" cause during the 1820s/1830's, and how you came to this conclusion when there was no Hellas, and when the people that lived there themselves didn't call it as such?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris[/url]

[B]In 1821, Botsaris made common cause with the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire[/B]. He and other Souliot captains, including Kitsos Tzavelas, Notis Botsaris, Lampros Veikos, and Giotis Danglis only enlisted fellow Souliot kin in to their bands.[1] At the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence, he distinguished himself by his courage, tenacity and skill as a partisan leader in the fighting in western Greece, and was conspicuous in the defence of Missolonghi during the first siege of the city (1822–1823).

Orfej 02-04-2011 09:40 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88006] So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ? Am I understanding you correctly ? [/QUOTE]

No you don't understand me correctly! I don't argue that an Arvinite can't become a Greek through assimilation. He can, if he adopts Greek as his mother tongue, adopts Greek culture, traditions, way of living etc. But with it he stops being an Arvanite.
The point is that Arvanites and Greeks are different groups and you can't be an Arvanite and a Greek at the same time, just like you can't be a French and a German at the same time. The Arvanites are steadily being assimilated(their number is constantly shrinking) and at some point they will be extinct. Again it will not mean that the Arvanites are Greeks, it will only mean that they as a group melted into the Greek ethnos.

The same goes for Vlach, Macedonian and Turkish speakers( the last i think are totally extinct by now) in Greece. They are not Greeks and the terms u use like Slavophone Greeks or Vlachophone Greeks are redicilious.

Imagine, if we recognize all these groups as Greeks then which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks?

[QUOTE=Voltron;88006]
How many years back can you trace your family Orfej ?[/QUOTE]

Not many, but i know one thing for certain. My family spoke the language i speak and lived where i live for as long as they can remember. That's something which a lot of Greeks can't say.


[QUOTE=Voltron;88006]
They [B]self-identify[/B] themselves as Greeks, shed their blood for the Hellenic cause, speak Greek, belong to G.O.C and live in the same area with us Greeks. What else do you want ? We treat them as our own and they dont deserve anything less than that. [/QUOTE]

If they speak Greek as a mother tongue then they are not Arvanites anymore. Is it that hard for you to understand?! An Arvanite speaks a form of the Albanian language and not Greek.

Voltron 02-04-2011 10:03 AM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Orfej;88081]No you don't understand me correctly! I don't argue that an Arvinite can't become a Greek through assimilation. He can, if he adopts Greek as his mother tongue, adopts Greek culture, traditions, way of living etc. But with it he stops being an Arvanite.
The point is that Arvanites and Greeks are different groups and you can't be an Arvanite and a Greek at the same time, just like you can't be a French and a German at the same time. The Arvanites are steadily being assimilated(their number is constantly shrinking) and at some point they will be extinct. Again it will not mean that the Arvanites are Greeks, it will only mean that they as a group melted into the Greek ethnos. [/QUOTE]

I dont think we are really saying something different from each other.
Il leave it at that.

[QUOTE]The same goes for Vlach, Macedonian and Turkish speakers( the last i think are totally extinct by now) in Greece. They are not Greeks and the terms u use like Slavophone Greeks or Vlachophone Greeks are redicilious. [/QUOTE]

Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ? This is where everthing starts to get messy and arguements go on back and forth for an eternity. That is why I dont hold any racial value in the Balkans. It can change by just changing a few factors.

[QUOTE]Imagine, if we recognize all these groups as Greeks then which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks? [/QUOTE]

Greek.

[QUOTE]Not many, but i know one thing for certain. My family spoke the language i speak and lived where i live for as long as they can remember. That's something which a lot of Greeks can't say. [/QUOTE]

Now on this one you are way off the mark. You are wrong on this and you dont know my language to make such an opinion.

[QUOTE]If they speak Greek as a mother tongue then they are not Arvanites anymore. Is it that hard for you to understand?! An Arvanite speaks a form of the Albanian language and not Greek.[/QUOTE]

Well, they speak Greek as a mother tongue now so I guess that answers your question. Thats why I emphasized on the word " Today ". Not a few hundred years ago.

Onur 02-04-2011 11:19 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88085]
Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ?[/QUOTE]

If your mothertongue is English, then you are already partly assimilated and your children will most likely be fully assimilated. By the time of 3-4th generation, those children wont even remember that his ancestors was Greeks, just like the situation of Arvanites, Vlachs or Turkish christians in Greece.

I know that this is the case with many Greek diaspora members. Most of them are already partly assimilated in US, Australia etc. They are aware of this fact and they think that as much as they preserve anti-turkish, anti-Macedonia stance, they can remain as Greeks and continue to feel as a Greek. This behavior became pretty much the only thing which attaches you in to your own small Greek world and this hateful stance defines your Greek identity now.


Ofc this is a pathological situation and it`s not healthy as well as being wrong. It would be much better for you and your community to have proper Greek names like "Yorgo, Stavros" instead of "Jack, Pierre" and teach Greek to your children instead of foreign tongue but you have names like "Jack" and you speak english, french and you pretend to be the biggest Greek in the world by hating from Turks, Albanians, Macedonians.

Orfej 02-04-2011 12:10 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88085] [QUOTE]

I dont think we are really saying something different from each other.
Il leave it at that.
[/QUOTE]

We were saying something different, but i won't repeat myself and start explaining again.

[QUOTE=Voltron;88085]
Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ? This is where everthing starts to get messy and arguements go on back and forth for an eternity. That is why I dont hold any racial value in the Balkans. It can change by just changing a few factors.
[/QUOTE]

You are contradicting yourself. When i asked you:
[QUOTE]which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks? [/QUOTE]

You answered:
[QUOTE]Greek.[/QUOTE]

So how can a person who's native language is Macedonian be a Greek, knowing that the mother tongue of the Greeks is Greek? It just doesn't make sense!

If we follow your reasoning then we must include the Macedonian language( besides the Greek) as a mother tongue of the Greeks. If we consider the Vlach speakers, Turk speakers(karamanlides) and Albanian speakers(Arvanites) as Greeks then we must put all these languages as mother tongues of the Greeks. So besides Greek, a mother tongue of the Greeks can also be Macedonian,Albanian,Turkish or Vlach. You Greeks would have five different mother tongues!!:thumbup1: Add to this five different cultures( similar but still different), different homelands and surely different origin of these groups, what's the thing that unites you? [SIZE="3"]It's religion[/SIZE]!!
Of course almost all the Christians on the Balkans share that same religion, so it comes up that almost all Christians on the Balkans can pass as Greeks.

[QUOTE=Voltron;88085]
Now on this one you are way off the mark. You are wrong on this and you dont know my language to make such an opinion. [/QUOTE]

I'm not wrong. There are tons of Greek speakers today who recall that their not so remote ancestors were Vlach,Macedonian,Turkish or Albanian speakers.


[QUOTE=Voltron;88085]
Well, they speak Greek as a mother tongue now so I guess that answers your question. Thats why I emphasized on the word " Today ". Not a few hundred years ago. [/QUOTE]

The records say that there are still around 50 000 people who's mother tongue is Arvantika, so they are not fully assimilated. The ones who got assimilated become Greeks.

Voltron 02-04-2011 12:48 PM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Orfej;88092][QUOTE=Voltron;88085]

So how can a person who's native language is Macedonian be a Greek, knowing that the mother tongue of the Greeks is Greek? It just doesn't make sense! [/QUOTE]

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.

[QUOTE]If we follow your reasoning then we must include the Macedonian language( besides the Greek) as a mother tongue of the Greeks. If we consider the Vlach speakers, Turk speakers(karamanlides) and Albanian speakers(Arvanites) as Greeks then we must put all these languages as mother tongues of the Greeks. So besides Greek, a mother tongue of the Greeks can also be Macedonian,Albanian,Turkish or Vlach. You Greeks would have five different mother tongues!!:thumbup1: Add to this five different cultures( similar but still different), different homelands and surely different origin of these groups, what's the thing that unites you? [SIZE="3"]It's religion[/SIZE]!!
Of course almost all the Christians on the Balkans share that same religion, so it comes up that almost all Christians on the Balkans can pass as Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Orfej, I understand what your trying to say, but thats not what I meant. Lets just agree on assimilation. I was referring to assimilation of Arvanites into the Greek ethnos. You may still regard them as a seperate group and thats ok. Again, most important is to ask these people themselves if they are not Greek. Not me.

[QUOTE]I'm not wrong. There are tons of Greek speakers today who recall that their not so remote ancestors were Vlach,Macedonian,Turkish or Albanian speakers. [/QUOTE]

Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.


[QUOTE]The records say that there are still around 50 000 people who's mother tongue is Arvantika, so they are not fully assimilated. The ones who got assimilated become Greeks.[/QUOTE]

50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more.

Voltron 02-04-2011 01:42 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;88090]If your mothertongue is English, then you are already partly assimilated and your children will most likely be fully assimilated. By the time of 3-4th generation, those children wont even remember that his ancestors was Greeks, just like the situation of Arvanites, Vlachs or Turkish christians in Greece.

I know that this is the case with many Greek diaspora members. Most of them are already partly assimilated in US, Australia etc. They are aware of this fact and they think that as much as they preserve anti-turkish, anti-Macedonia stance, they can remain as Greeks and continue to feel as a Greek. This behavior became pretty much the only thing which attaches you in to your own small Greek world and this hateful stance defines your Greek identity now.


Ofc this is a pathological situation and it`s not healthy as well as being wrong. It would be much better for you and your community to have proper Greek names like "Yorgo, Stavros" instead of "Jack, Pierre" and teach Greek to your children instead of foreign tongue but you have names like "Jack" and you speak english, french and you pretend to be the biggest Greek in the world by hating from Turks, Albanians, Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

Exactly Onur, that is one of the reasons why I moved to Greece. Minor detail you left out, 3 or 4th generation Greeks that are Jack or Pierre most likely couldnt care less about Turks or Macedonians altogether. This I know from experience. Again you start to make sense than fail miserably.

makedonche 02-04-2011 07:31 PM

Volton

[QUOTE]Exactly Onur, that is one of the reasons why I moved to Greece. Minor detail you left out, 3 or 4th generation Greeks that are Jack or Pierre [U][B]most likely couldnt care less about Turks or Macedonians altogether.[/B][/U] This I know from experience. Again you start to make sense than fail miserably.[/QUOTE]

Do you think they would be remotely interested in the truth?

Soldier of Macedon 02-06-2011 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88067]Of course if you isolate this statement on its own its ambiguous. It was said during a dialogue and within a wider context.[/QUOTE]
What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.
[QUOTE]Who ?[/QUOTE]
Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).
[QUOTE][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris[/url]

[B]In 1821, Botsaris made common cause with the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire[/B].[/QUOTE]
What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?

Voltron 02-06-2011 02:40 PM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;88217]What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.

Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).[/QUOTE]

SOM, Im not trying to waste your time. We have a small difference of interpretation. My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

[QUOTE]What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?[/QUOTE]

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.

Soldier of Macedon 02-06-2011 05:12 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88225]My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.[/QUOTE]
There was neither an Albania or a Greece back then, but there were people who spoke Albanian and Greek as native tongues. The former are more significant and famous for your independence than the latter - by a long shot.
[QUOTE]End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.[/QUOTE]
No, the idea of fighting for 'the Hellenic cause' came later. This is not what the Albanians, Vlachs or even Greeks fought for during the 1820's, which was basically a Christian state in the Balkans independent from Muslim rule.

Orfej 02-07-2011 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094] [QUOTE][QUOTE=Orfej;88092]

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.[/QUOTE]

Yes, we agree on that! But we also should agree that there is a difference between regarding an assimilated Arvanite as a Greek and regarding an unassimilated Arvanite as a Greek. You see when an Arvanite speaks Albanian, dances and dresses like an Albanian etc. then he is not assimilated and is not a Greek.


[QUOTE=Voltron;88094]
Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry but I don’t recall any other Christian ethnicity on the Balkans that assimilated so many groups in the past 200 years like the Greeks had. Maybe you can help me and tell me which?

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094]
50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more .[/QUOTE]

It’s funny how all Greeks respect the feelings of the Arvanites and the `Slavophone Greeks`, but they don’t respect the feelings of the Macedonians to be called as they want! Do you disagree with the Greek majority and the Greek state about their shameless actions to change the name of a neighboring state? Can you elaborate?

George S. 02-07-2011 06:03 PM

Not just assimmilation it's forced Assimilation where you don't have choice in the matter.The macedonian people were forbidden to speak or identify as macedonian. & other matters.

Daskalot 02-08-2011 09:04 AM

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

Risto the Great 02-09-2011 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;88400]Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?[/QUOTE]

Ahhhh, now we are getting somewhere.

Pelister 02-09-2011 09:43 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87970]
[B]To claim we dont exist or are a fabrication of westerners is utterly ridiculous.[/B] I dont take it seriously and hope you will grow out of it sometime soon.[/QUOTE]

This isn't about 'blood' or DNA, its about the New Greeks (people such as yourself) assuming a sham heritage and 'claiming' territory on the basis that your the true representatives of the ancient Greeks, when in fact you are not. It is ofcourse also about the New Greeks assuming regions were once 'Greek', in order that they might have a claim in the first place, but that is just a facile and weak attempt to conquer new territory. The New Greeks have never been able to accept people the way they found them. As a state its institutions, its government could never reflect the actual state of things on the ground. If you accepted people the way they were and actually allowed a free choice - there is no way you would hold one part of Macedonian territory right now. The ONLY way the invading 'Greeks' got it was by force, and the only way they held it was by force. That makes your 'title' legally defective. What you fail to properly acknowledge is just how historically defective it is too. The point I made about the way the New Greeks throw around loose categories of identity such as 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' is to write yourselves into new territory, where Greeks never existed. You by passed that point. It didn't seem to register with you.

Pelister 02-09-2011 09:46 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;88400]Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

The New Greek has assumed a sham heritge. Its [I]historical[/I] claim to territory in the region, including Macedonian territory, is not legitimate. Its not valid. Neither is its legal claim a valid one.

Voltron 02-10-2011 05:47 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;88559]This isn't about 'blood' or DNA, its about the New Greeks (people such as yourself) assuming a sham heritage and 'claiming' territory on the basis that your the true representatives of the ancient Greeks, when in fact you are not. It is ofcourse also about the New Greeks assuming regions were once 'Greek', in order that they might have a claim in the first place, but that is just a facile and weak attempt to conquer new territory. The New Greeks have never been able to accept people the way they found them. As a state its institutions, its government could never reflect the actual state of things on the ground. If you accepted people the way they were and actually allowed a free choice - there is no way you would hold one part of Macedonian territory right now. The ONLY way the invading 'Greeks' got it was by force, and the only way they held it was by force. That makes your 'title' legally defective. What you fail to properly acknowledge is just how historically defective it is too. The point I made about the way the New Greeks throw around loose categories of identity such as 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' is to write yourselves into new territory, where Greeks never existed. You by passed that point. It didn't seem to register with you.[/QUOTE]

Let me guess. We are a fabricated ethnos but you on the other hand are direct descendents from ancient Macedonians. Correct ?

Voltron 02-10-2011 05:56 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;88400]Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?[/QUOTE]

Im confused ? Do you disagree with this definitions of the word " Assimilation " ? Surely you are not implying that Arvanties should have a direct bloodline connecting to Pericles himself are you ?

[B]•the state of being assimilated; people of different backgrounds come to see themselves as part of a larger national family [/B]
[B]•the social process of absorbing one cultural group into harmony with another [/B]

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

makgerman 02-10-2011 07:33 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88601]Let me guess. We are a fabricated ethnos but you on the other hand are direct descendents from ancient Macedonians. Correct ?[/QUOTE]


You are correct.

The only thing it is a vice-versa statement made by just about every Modern Greek.

Such modern Greeks include the ones from Asia Minor, Vlachs, Arvanti who have settled in Macedonia not long ago and claim to be pure whereas our great-great-great^n grandfathers are new settlers who don't have the right to declare themselves and their offsprings as Macedonians

Voltron 02-10-2011 07:51 AM

[QUOTE=makgerman;88617]You are correct.

The only thing it is a vice-versa statement made by just about every Modern Greek.

Such modern Greeks include the ones from Asia Minor, Vlachs, Arvanti who have settled in Macedonia not long ago and claim to be pure whereas our great-great-great^n grandfathers are new settlers who don't have the right to declare themselves and their offsprings as Macedonians[/QUOTE]

MakGerman, are you serious ?

makgerman 02-10-2011 08:10 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88619]MakGerman, are you serious ?[/QUOTE]

Just as serious as you are Vol.

Go on your fellow Modern Greek forums and claim that we have every right to call ourselves Macedonians. What sort of response do you think you'll receive?

Voltron 02-10-2011 08:18 AM

[QUOTE=makgerman;88622]Just as serious as you are Vol.

Go on your fellow Modern Greek forums and claim that we have every right to call ourselves Macedonians. What sort of response do you think you'll receive?[/QUOTE]

Makgerman, why would I go on a Greek forum. Im not understanding you at all. You cannot say to Greeks they are fabricated while insisting you are different. If we are fabricated then you can be sure that the same applies to you. If you look at historical events in the past, espescially regarding the middle ages you will see that Macedonia was the front line for invaders to pass through in order to arrive to Greece.
Do you think they left Macedonia unharmed ? Be realistic.

The LION will ROAR 02-10-2011 08:28 AM

Modern Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks” and here is why! Those who today call themselves “Greeks” did not exist as “Greeks” before the Greek state was artificially created by the Philhellenes in the early 1800’s. In fact it is more accurate to call these people “Albanians’, “Vlachs”, “Latins”, “Turks”, “Macedonians” and so on than to call them “Greeks, descendents of the ancient Greeks”.

Unlike the Macedonians who were a nation before they had a country, there was no “Greek nation” before there was a Greek state. In other words, the Greek nation was artificially constructed to fit the country that was created for it by the Philhellenes. The people that made up the so-called “Greek nation” were assimilated Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Macedonians and others who happened to live in that region. Therefore it is more accurate to say that the “Modern Greeks” are the descendents of the 19th century Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and 20th century Macedonians than it is to say that they are the descendents of the ancient Greeks from 2,600 years ago!

Voltron 02-10-2011 08:50 AM

[QUOTE=The LION will ROAR;88626]Modern Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks” and here is why! Those who today call themselves “Greeks” did not exist as “Greeks” before the Greek state was artificially created by the Philhellenes in the early 1800’s. In fact it is more accurate to call these people “Albanians’, “Vlachs”, “Latins”, “Turks”, “Macedonians” and so on than to call them “Greeks, descendents of the ancient Greeks”.

Unlike the Macedonians who were a nation before they had a country, there was no “Greek nation” before there was a Greek state. In other words, the Greek nation was artificially constructed to fit the country that was created for it by the Philhellenes. The people that made up the so-called “Greek nation” were assimilated Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Macedonians and others who happened to live in that region. Therefore it is more accurate to say that the “Modern Greeks” are the descendents of the 19th century Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and 20th century Macedonians than it is to say that they are the descendents of the ancient Greeks from 2,600 years ago![/QUOTE]

TLWR, your post is a perfect example of what propaganda can do. It is a textbook response in its finest quality. First we have the reference to creation of Greece by Philhellenes. Then we have the reference to minority groups that have lived in Greece with Greeks for years. Just because they have assimilated all of a sudden we all are like that. Then of course we have a reference to the Macedonian Nation before there was Greece. These are textbook hallmark responses that have become a mantra for some people. If you want to truth TLWR, you have to look past that and open up your mind. Not to what you would like to hear because some Greeks have offended you in the past.

TrueMacedonian 02-10-2011 01:53 PM

Back on to the original topic on hand:

[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Macmillan.jpg[/IMG]
page 352
[IMG]http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Macmillan352.jpg[/IMG]

Venizelos is a great statesman. His largely Albanian government, with the largely Albanian Army and Navy, and his dumping of Baptised Turks and other non-grk ethnicities in Macedonia in order to "ethnically make Macedonia Greek" in his words, are works of art like Micheangelo or Da Vinci. I applaud his efforts :14: Another source that entertains the sad reality of hellenism. Albanian spoken in the grk army. Wow. But should we all be surprised?

Voltron 02-10-2011 02:42 PM

Im willing to bet Albanian is also spoken in Macedonia's armed forces, or am I wrong ?


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