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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

makedonin 12-10-2010 04:01 AM

Damn it, I can't refrain my bad typing habit!

I see this slave argument used repeatedly! It is kinda ironic for me!

I wondered where does this slave mentality comes from?

Maybe they are just obedient Christians, cause God have spoken to them to be good slaves:

[QUOTE] [B][U]Slaves, obey your earthly masters[/U] with respect and fear[/B], and with sincerity of heart, [B][U]just as you would obey Christ[/U][/B]. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, [B]but as slaves of Christ[/B], [B][U]doing the will of God from your heart[/U][/B]. [B]Serve wholeheartedly, [U]as if you were serving the Lord, not people[/U][/B], because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:5-8&version=NIV"]Ephesians 6:5-8[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

Macedonians were for fife hundred years good slaves, I guess all are now into heaven. So why are we asking modern Macedonians to go to hell?

Let them obey their masters and peacefully go to heaven! This life is dwindling away anyways, so it is the word of God!

Maybe we all have to become good Christian and make Heaven Macedonian colony!

I hope you get the irony, if not think harder in retrospective!

Vangelovski 12-10-2010 04:37 AM

Makedonin,

Why do you keep trying to apply your uninformed and illogical "understanding" of the Bible when your lack of Biblical knowledge has been demonstrated time and again? Do you know what kind of a slave that was reffering to? Do you know how that differs to what we are referring to in the 'slave mentality'?

Your inability to understand the Bible stems from you reading a text completely out of context from the era in which it was written. The examples provided in the Bible need to be understood within the culture it was written in. A 'slave' in New Testament times was something completely different to what we understand to be a 'slave' now and completely different to what is understood as the 'slave mentality'. Just because the word 'slave' appears before you, that does not automatically mean that it holds the same definition in the same context as when it appears in all other places.

makedonin 12-10-2010 05:05 AM

Hey Vangel, did I touch your nerve? You slave!
[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82214]
Why do you keep trying to apply your uninformed and illogical "understanding" of the Bible when your lack of Biblical knowledge has been demonstrated time and again?
[/QUOTE]
Demonstrated you say? Don't be funny. All it was demonstrated is that the book is a mass and illogical it self!

By the way, you don't have to be biblical scholar to understand what is said above!

That is why you are so touchy about it, isn't it?

It is OK to be, it is really upsetting.

But you can calm down, it ain't the word of God, so you don't have to be afraid about it.
[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82214]
Do you know what kind of a slave that was reffering to?
[/QUOTE]

It is obvious what kind of a slave it is reffering to! Someone who have "earthly masters" and or their masters are also "people" not god or something!

No context will help you out of that!
[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82214]
Do you know how that differs to what we are referring to in the 'slave mentality'?
[/QUOTE]
So what is the difference between the slaves reffered into the passage and the slavery in Ottoman times!

Nothing substantial.

Also I don't see any difference in the "slave mentality" of both!

Both have to follow and obey earthly masters! They are not free in one way or the other!

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82214] A 'slave' in New Testament times was something completely different to what we understand to be a 'slave' now and completely different to what is understood as the 'slave mentality'. Just because the word 'slave' appears before you, that does not automatically mean that it holds the same definition in the same context as when it appears in all other places.[/QUOTE]

We all know what slave is, you can try to polish that all you will, it won't change.

Slave is a Slave and there is no substantial change that have taken place into it!

Here is great definition by the Book it self:

[QUOTE][B]Teach slaves [U]to be subject to their masters in everything[/U] [/B], [B][U]to try to please them[/U][/B], not to talk back to them,
[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:9&version=NIV"]Titus 2:9[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

You see what slaves are, a spade is a spade, and what they are expected to do for the Sake of the Gospel?

No context will help you out of that!

So, what is the next advise we get from the great Book?

[QUOTE][B]Each person [U]should remain in the situation[/U] they were in when God called them.[/B]
[B]Were you a slave[/B] when you were called? [B]Don’t let it trouble you[/B]—[B][U]although if you can gain your freedom[/U], [U]do so[/U]*[/B].
[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Corinthians%207:20-21&version=NIV"]I Corinthians 7:20-21[/URL]
* don't gain your freedom, stay a slave!
[/QUOTE]

So, Macedonians in Ottoman times have been slaves, but those who have changed it have broken the "word of God" cause they changed slavery for freedom, but they were instructed otherwise. So the freedom fighters are now in hell.

Wow, what a great revealing logic the great book have given us.


Fair well Vangel, I will drop you some irritating things once in a while, and cause few cognitive dissonance's for you.

That is a promise!

Bratot 12-10-2010 05:34 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;82211]You and your new reinforcement have polluted a perfectly good and required (information) thread with off-topic discussion and maybe the MTO Admin could get it cleaned up and move the off-topic stuff to an appropriately labelled topic in order to leave the original to serve the purpose Niko intended it to do. This is not the first time this has occurred under your diversionary tactics, Bratot.[/QUOTE]

You forgot to mention I work for UDBA :21:

It was you that attacked Protivpropaganda and run away after and let RtG and Vangelovski save your poor arse as they always do.

Vangelovski 12-10-2010 05:43 AM

Makedonin,

You are a clown. You indeed do need to understand the cultural, social and economic context in which any text, not just the Bible, has been written, otherwise, you just end up looking like a...well, you.

In Biblical times, people sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. The modern equivalent would be working to pay off your mortgage. It was a voluntary financial arrangement that ended once the debt was paid.

What exactly does that have in common with the 'slave mentality' or even involuntary slavery as we know it in modern days?

makedonin 12-10-2010 06:07 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82228]
In Biblical times, people sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. The modern equivalent would be working to pay off your mortgage. It was a voluntary financial arrangement that ended once the debt was paid.[/QUOTE]

That is only a dodge! Although that is partially true, slaves could have been bought for money! They could have been forced to labor only for food!

You could have been born slave as well, and the master would have been nice to you and give you food for that.

Look at here:
[QUOTE]But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if slaves are born in his household, they may eat his food.
[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2022:11&version=NIV"]Leviticus 22:11[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

It was not like they were pets and all was milk and honey for the slaves:
[QUOTE]
“[B]Anyone [U]who beats[/U] their male or female slave [U]with a rod[/U] [/B] must be punished[B] [U]if the slave dies as a direct result[/U][/B], but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, [B][U]since the slave is their property[/U][/B].
[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NIV"]Exodus 21:20-21[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

What is the difference with the concept of today?

Slave is a property of the one who bought him, he can be beaten up with a rod, could have been beaten to death!

Nice concept, wouldn't you say?

indigen 12-10-2010 06:17 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;82224]You forgot to mention I work for UDBA :21:

It was you that attacked Protivpropaganda and run away after and let RtG and Vangelovski save your poor arse as they always do.[/QUOTE]

I did not attack anyone but [B]passionately challenged[/B] his RAMKOVIST APOLOGIST position in a point for point reply and it has been left unanswered by PP. Start a new thread and name it PP and his apprentice if you like and claim whatever you want.

Do you also claim that we were not sold out by the politicians in 2001 and do you think one needs a "Dr" title from a Yugo (or anywhere else) institution in order to know that we were sold out?

Would this fellow below agree with that proposition (that we were not sold out in 2001) who, if I am not mistaken, is from Macedonia (Prilep) and has served some time in Idrizovo for his political activities during YU era?


[QUOTE]Тема: И уште еднаш : Карпалак заборавен

ABC
16-08-07, 00:00
Oд тие што не почитуваа блентави наредби да одат во комбиња како туристи на фронт не загина ниеден. По Карпалак се свести Македончето а тоа го знаеше секој Албанец и затоа побрзаа да издејствуваат потпишување[COLOR="Red"][B] на с-рамковен договор со помош на оној кој играше тенис додека Македонците гинеа под негова врховна команда.[/B][/COLOR]

Од тој момент на Карпалак немаше -[B]запри сега, не пукај без да дадеме наредба, немаше одење по патики на фронт[/B], од тој момент имаше прво пукај па викај стој,ореми се максимално па оди на фронт со сите расположиви средства кој лежеа неискористени по магацините.Токму Карпалак [B]беше пресвртница [COLOR="Red"]во фингираниот конфликт[/COLOR] [/B]и токму по Карпалак сите се затрчаа да ја запрат војната која беше на повидок ама во вистинска смисла на зборот.Во тој случај можеби некој друг ќе го извлечеше подебелиот крај зошто Македонците немаа алтернатива како што имаа Албанците.

ABC
16-08-07, 04:26
Видов јас од Прилеп и од други места низ Македонија каква мобилизација имаше пред и после Карпалак,а сигурно кодошите им кажаа и на оние од UCK дека нема повеќе заебанција па побрзаа да иницираат с-рамковен.

ABC
16-08-07, 05:17
Не би рекол баш толку дека сме наивни отколку реални,по Карпалак некако како наивните да ја согледаа реалноста па им фалеше само малку,онака потемелно,да го зачистат својот двор.

ABC
16-08-07, 14:20
И? Го зачистија ли? Размисли пред да одговориш. За да не ти реплицирам после, еве сега ќе ти реплицирам на можните одговори.

1. ДА - Ако зачистиле дворот, кој беше на власт 4 години? Истиот смет?
2. НЕ - Тогаш не ти држи вода горе споменатото..

Ќе го зачистат сега доколку се пројави потреба под само еден единствен услов.

1.Гаранции од власта за непречена примена на воена сила во одбрана на сопствената земја со посебна напомена дека нема да има предавства на бранителите во Хаг и слични преседани.

ABC
16-08-07, 17:11
Хрватите имаа една Олуја пред извесно време како што тие ја нарекоа и сега се малку порајат.Инаку измислените форми како етничко чистење се веќе видена работа на која се помалку и се придава значаење како што можевме да видиме од Косовскиот најсвеж пример.


brainbug
17-08-07, 11:57
Denot na godisnicata od "oluja" se veli taka vo Makedonija, Srbija i Crna Gora.. vo Hrvatska se slavi denot na pobedata i osloboduvanjeto. Bev i vidov kako go slavat i kako go dozivuvaat navistina preekrasno, navistina vpecatok deka nekoj se izboril i si go pocituva izborenoto, navistina sustinska lekcija kakov pristap da se ima nasproti svojata drzava.

So ogled na denot i ne bese tesko da se izvlecat iskreni mislenja i stavovi na sekojdnevniot Hrvat op odnos na izminatite 16-17 godini. ABC greska si.. ne se malku porajat, TRAJNO se rajat, koga im gi renovirale kukite na srbite imale nekoja zabrana da prodavaat 10 godini, tie godini pominaa i sega srbive prodavaat ko ludi! povratnici najcesto bile dedovci i babi vrateni da si lapnat 3 ili 4 pati pogolema penzija otkolku sto bi zemale vo srbija.

Sto ke pravis nie sansata si ja imavme ne ja iskoristivme duri i ja izgubivme vojnata. Ramkovniot dogovor go dozivuvamkako totalna kapitulacija na Makedoncite , a veke pisuvav, na Vas e dali ke smetate deka ja izgubivme poradi politickiot, vojniot vrv ili pak onie "hrabri" momcinja sto se krieja od mobilizacija i ne samo krienjeto i neodzivanjeto, tokmu toa sto go rece rymz si gi okupiraa masite pokraj kej i jadea g...a za toa kolku ne vredi da se vojuva za RM :( normalno posle toj muabet ke se evociraa i po nekoj spomen za vremeto dodeka gi braneja srpskite mostovi.
aj pak se iznervirav ne mi se pisuva ponatamu vo momentov :(

[url]http://forum.kajgana.com/showthread.php?15262-%D0%98-%D1%83%D1%88%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88-%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BA-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD[/url][/QUOTE]

For fair use only.

Vangelovski 12-10-2010 06:20 AM

[quote=makedonin;82240]That is only a dodge! Although that is partially true, slaves could have been bought for money! They could have been forced to labor only for food!

You could have been born slave as well, and the master would have been nice to you and give you food for that.

Look at here:


It was not like they were pets and all was milk and honey for the slaves:


What is the difference with the concept of today?

Slave is a property of the one who bought him, he can be beaten up with a rod!

Nice concept, wouldn't you say?[/quote]

Makedonin,

I think you need to look into 'exegesis' before you can make any sense.

[QUOTE]Exegesis includes a wide range of critical disciplines: textual criticism is the investigation into the history and origins of the text, but exegesis may include the study of the historical and cultural backgrounds for the author, the text, and the original audience. Other analysis includes classification of the type of literary genres present in the text, and an analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself.[/QUOTE]

Once you have gained a basic understanding of exegesis, or read the work of someone who does, then you may actually start making some sense. At the moment, you're not doing yourself any justice.

makedonin 12-10-2010 06:24 AM

What ever Vangel, what ever! I see, you don't have any argument about it.

I leave you be for now! I will toy with you later sometime....

Vangelovski 12-10-2010 06:27 AM

[quote=makedonin;82248]What ever Vangel, what ever! I see, you don't have any argument about it.[/quote]

You need to make sense before anyone can respond intelligently. Using your uninformed views to interpret a text written 3000 years ago does not make for intelligent discussion. What exactly am I mean't to respond to?

If anyone wants to read your dribble on religion, and the informed posts by a number of other members, they can go to the Hellenic Religion thread. Getting back to the topic of this one, maybe you would like to give us your views on the Albanianisation of Macedonia?


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