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julie 12-02-2010 06:49 PM

Thank you for your responses protiv propoganda. And yes, I am interested very much in the preservation of all that is left of Macedonia, our name, our identity. :)

Big Bad Sven 12-02-2010 11:51 PM

Wow, just found this thread, very good thread and much respect to the poster who started this thread, Very informative.

I have to laugh at the internet shiptars who boast that western macedonia has always been populated by shiptars. Its a lie, as the documents show the shiptar pressence has increased in western macedonia because of macedonians leaving their homes and fanatical shiptar colonization of those areas.

I was speaking to dad and uncles a few days ago and they told me that back in the 60's and 70's places like Struga, Gostivar and Kicevo had an extremely small number of shiptars, and the only places that had lots of shiptars were Tetovo and Skopje...

I would say even Debar would have been more macedonian in those times but unfortunately our weak minded torbeshi brothers have fallen in love to the all mighty gheg dollar and changed sides.

Amazing that there are shrines in the mountains of gheg terrorists who killed our brave soldiers and innocent civilians in 2001, what a sick joke!

I said this in a earlier thread, but i find it absolutely offensive that our "leaders" have done fuck all to stop all of these illegally built shrines and also the horrible new shiptar mueseum in skopje, that celebrate racist terrorists - yet at the same time nothing has been done to congratulate or honour the soldiers that have died in 2001.

There have been no memorials made for these soldiers, no awards given to them, no respect shown to them, no mention of them, no nothing! Its as if they never existed!

Whats worse is that the poor civillians havent been fully compensated or helped out after the 2001 "war" and have to see terrorist scum like Ali Ahmeti sitting in cossy government jobs and living it up.

What a total fucking farce the government in macedonia is.

Looks like dickless macedonians are happy to be slaves to the minority ghegs and constantly have the shiptars rubbing it in our faces as they slowly morph our country into some sick twisted gheg fantasy land

George S. 12-03-2010 02:55 AM

Just like the greek megali idea the albanians want a greater albania.Seeing how they got kosovo well they want to take over macedonia.One newspaper jurnalist feom kosovo made a comment years ago that predictions show that by 2025 the albanians will be a majority in macedonia & they will link with kosovo.

The LION will ROAR 12-03-2010 03:27 AM

[QUOTE=George S.;80785]Just like the greek megali idea the albanians want a greater albania.Seeing how they got kosovo well they want to take over macedonia.One newspaper jurnalist feom kosovo made a comment years ago that predictions show that by 2025 the albanians will be a majority in macedonia & they will link with kosovo.[/QUOTE]

George Majority of Albanians in Macedonia do believe that they will link up with Kosovo, This is exactly what happen in Kosovo with the Serbs..
They breed like rabbits, over populate the area and build Mosques everywhere and then claim independents as Majority rule..
Same process is happening in Macedonia..
It would be easier to stop this now then later try to eradicate the Albanians or remove the Mosques..doing it later would just make us look worse.. The world would not understand the history and just look at us as the aggressors..
My Question, Is the Macedonian Government weak..? Or are they waiting for the right time..?

julie 12-03-2010 03:42 AM

LWR , the right time was at the time of the framework agreement, before the flag was enforced bratko. And yes, the government is pis weak.
We have state heritage buildings listed in South Australia. No one can build on any building without strict guidelines and building codes through the council municipalities. Seems a different kind of rules and regulations in Macedonia

protivpropaganda 12-03-2010 03:48 AM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;80738]Firstly I would like you to explain to me why is it you think I live in Cowardlandia?[/QUOTE]
Lighten up, will ya. Can't you see that I was just having fun.
BTW, when you stop being so scared and telling others to be frightened because you are then, maybe then, you wouldn't be so uptight.
Also, why do you want an explanation from me when you do not want my advice?


[QUOTE]Where are all the Macedonians? Also the Macedonians from Lipkovo, do you know where they are? They are still 'raseleni' they still live in a centre in Kumanovo with absolutley no one trying to help them. Have you heard of them, seen them, spoken to them? Have you seen how they live, what they eat? They have metal beds and a 4-5 member family live in one small room, that's the kitchen, the bathroom, the bedroom and the lounge.[/QUOTE]
The raseleni are there of their own accord. Houses were built for their return, special police protection was engaged and the EU guaranteed their safety.
They refused everything because they wanted to locate themselves somewhere else. There are also rumours that most of them sold their property to the shiptars.
Nothing in Macedonia is as it seems. Everything is very complicated.

[QUOTE]To you it may just seem like a scare tactic to me it's a scary reality. [/QUOTE]
Why do I get a feeling that you didn't get it as you yoursef are under the influence of the scare and sell scheme.
Do reread my post more carefully and if you still don't get it ask instead of attacking.

[QUOTE]As you have been in Tetovo not to long ago can you tell me how many Macedonian signs in the shops there are? Hardly few. Where are all the Macedonians from this towns, what happened to them? Have you asked yourself. It is a scary reality mate and it's is not just a tactic as you call it, they are taking everything and we should be scared ALOT but also should do something about it if it's not too late.[/QUOTE]
You are talking to a guy who, at the time of our fight for our independence, looked into the eyes of Yugoslavia's secret service agents and... Ran away. :laugh::lol::D
I don't scare that easy.

Most of the Macedonians from Tetovo sold their property for a nice profit and bought houses or apartments in Gjorche Petrov and Karpos in Skopje.


[QUOTE]As for the advice, please don't give me any coz you don't know me. I don't ever live in the darkness but I always live in reality. Maybe you should try it sometimes.[/QUOTE]
You'd be amazed what someone with the right knowledge can pick up just by reading what one says in a post.
You should be asking me for advice but you do not know me as yet.

[QUOTE]As for alot you said I agree but I don't agree that it's just a tactic, it is reality and the more we allow it the worse for us.[/QUOTE]
Your reaction has given me proof that I did the right thing by explaining the scare and sell scheme.
Now, go back and reread my post and also you are welcome to read the whole site. If any questions arise do let me know and I will be glad to answer them.

[QUOTE]Oh and one more question. Earlier you said be scared Macedonians coz you have no hands to fight but in your response to Julie you are saying it's better we didn't fight because it was a lost war. So which one is it, fight and lose or not even take a shot because it is a lost war anyway? So if we fight we are wrong if we don't wrong again.[/QUOTE]
We, as Macedonians don't start fights. WE FINNISH THEM.
Only fools fight when provoced by emotions.

indigen 12-03-2010 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;80738]Firstly I would like you to explain to me why is it you think I live in Cowardlandia?
I went through Arachinovo on the 4th of November, not even a month ago. As you have mentioned you've been too, now tell me what do the houses of the Macedonians look like? Where are all the Macedonians? Also the Macedonians from Lipkovo, do you know where they are? They are still 'raseleni' they still live in a centre in Kumanovo with absolutley no one trying to help them. Have you heard of them, seen them, spoken to them? Have you seen how they live, what they eat? They have metal beds and a 4-5 member family live in one small room, that's the kitchen, the bathroom, the bedroom and the lounge.To you it may just seem like a scare tactic to me it's a scary reality. As you have been in Tetovo not to long ago can you tell me how many Macedonian signs in the shops there are? Hardly few. Where are all the Macedonians from this towns, what happened to them? Have you asked yourself. It is a scary reality mate and it's is not just a tactic as you call it, they are taking everything and we should be scared ALOT but also should do something about it if it's not too late.
As for the advice, please don't give me any coz you don't know me. I don't ever live in the darkness but I always live in reality. Maybe you should try it sometimes.

As for alot you said I agree but I don't agree that it's just a tactic, it is reality and the more we allow it the worse for us.

Oh and one more question. Earlier you said be scared Macedonians coz you have no hands to fight but in your response to Julie you are saying it's better we didn't fight because it was a lost war. So which one is it, fight and lose or not even take a shot because it is a lost war anyway? So if we fight we are wrong if we don't wrong again.[/QUOTE]

Jankovska, you stick it to this character because I think it is very questionable whether he/she is at all related to the original PP, who was an articulate and ardent anti-Ramkovist back in 2001-3. Whilst it is possible for people to switch (flip-flop) in Macedonian politics (and we have lots of examples of that), I am at present thinking someone is playing mind games with the MTO, yet again.

indigen 12-03-2010 04:27 AM

[B]Protivpropaganda #38[/B]

[B]Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow the enforcement of the framework agreement?[/B]

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.[/COLOR]

Indigen: It is called CAPITULATION and TREASON and your apologist propaganda is reeking of a RAMKOVIST sales pitch! That means we have ourselves yet another SALESMAN for RAMKOVISM – RAMKOVIST AGENT OF PROPAGANDA! :-)

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: At that time existed a dilemma for the political party in power. Does it engage in forced drafting of all male citizens and committing genocide upon the shiptars or accepting a mediated truce.[/COLOR]

Indigen: Are you now trying to be an apologist for the BUGAROMAN and UCK COALITION “Government” that was about to fall towards the end of 2000? Why would they be committing genocide by driving out or eliminating a few hundred (or few thousand) foreign (and their local appendages) armed TERRORISTS? Is this not done by all sovereign states around the world and is it not what was required by the constitution?

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: By accepting the second option many Macedonian lives were spared and our country remained intact. [/COLOR]

Indigen: And they lost the title deeds to their country! It is easy to “save lives” when you give up what is yours without a fight. Macedonian is de-facto PARTITIONED and the PP back in 2001-3 acted as an ardent anti-Ramkovist (at least that is what I tremember him to be back then) and now appears to have switched sides and is spinning BS anti-Macedonian propaganda.

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: If the first option was chosen we would have annihilated the shiptars but would have fought with the western powers stationed in Kosovo and would have paid the ultimate price.
Which would you have chosen if it were up to you?[/COLOR]

Indigen: Pull the other one, Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist! In fact Macedonia was given a good chance to eliminate the TERRORISTS but they were inefficient in doing so. And how could a Bugaroman-UCK coalition Government be anything but inefficient in defending Macedonian national interest?

[B]Julie: Why did Macedonians allow the change in the flag?[/B]
[COLOR="Navy"]PP: We didn't allow it. It was early in our independence and the socialist scum in our society betrayed us.[/COLOR]
Indigen: Perhaps they (SDSM and Co) voted for it in August of 1992 with a clear plan to give it away (and they were ready to do so in November of the same year) but DPMNE and DP opposition stopped them from doing it then. It was clearly (all but officially) given away in April of 1993 when no flag was raised at the UN and a “Temporary Reference” was accepted for “two months” only but it could not be officially legalised in the MK parliament due to DPMNE MP numbers and opposition. The final deed had to wait further political schemes and machinations before it was enacted in late 1995.

And this cheap “socialist scum” empty slogans of yours are really outdated , worn-out and sound so out of tune that I think you should avoid using them if you want to retain what little credibility you have considering that Petar Goshev, Stojan Andov, Vasil Tupurkovski, Dzingo, Slobodan Chasule and many others were at one time or another allies of the “right-wingers” (who themselves were led by the likes of Dosta Dimovska, a Marxist professor). And ALL of them together have had one main interest in coming to power – enrich themselves, their family members and friends and enjoy lording it over the ordinary people.


[COLOR="Navy"]PP: While many accepted our flag as is there was a considerable number of idiots who didn't accept it.[/COLOR]
Indigen: I am assuming here that you are talking about the original 1992 Flag with the 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol?

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: The huge lie that it was temporary helped the cause of those that still felt that they didn't have anything in common with Macedonians but with slavs and serbs.[/COLOR]
Indigen: The above is as clear as mud to me and hard to understand what it is you are trying to say.

[B]Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow an Albanian criminal that headed terrorist groups in parliament (Ahmeti) ?[/B]

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.[/COLOR]
Indigen” Nobody can force you to sign away your title deeds to your country – WE WERE BETRAYED AND SOLD OUT!

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: At the end of the conflict of low intensity in 2001 Ahmeti was known as a righteous freedom fighter all around the world. While we were known as the repressive majority. [/COLOR]
Indigen: Blah, blah, blah....Excuses for CAPITULATION and TREASON and nothing more!

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: Again the socialist scum in our society brokered it so.[/COLOR]
Indigen: Again YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD and a stupid apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now. Did Gruevski (as government minister) not vote for the Ramkoven Dogovor, as did most of the DPMNE MPs back in 2001? Is Ivanov not a former socialist?

[B]Julie: Why do MACEDONIANS continue to negotiate our name?[/B]

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: Macedonians aren't negotiating their name. Our spineless politicians are doing it.[/COLOR]

Indigen: And why do they keep voting for them then? Why do they not protest and force them to stop?
[COLOR="Navy"]
PP: It is amazing how sterile minds can conjure up so many filthy thoughts. [/COLOR]
Indigen: It really is amazing what “sterile” minds (and opportunists bent on self-interest) can conjure up, is it not? :-)

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: After I created the site Protivpropaganda I started to overtly propagate Euroscepticism in 2002. [/COLOR]
Indigen: If I remember rightly (from Ajvar Forum days), PP was also an ardent anti-Ramkovist back then but this “PP” now, IMO, is playing the role of an APOLOGIST for the RAMKOVISTS and other VASSAL politicians and their anti-Macedonian deeds. What changed your views? And the PP site is (and has always been) decorated with Ventilator iconography to boot, which has always repulsed me ideologically.
.
[COLOR="Navy"]PP: I was looked down upon even by the Macedonian individual who was drowned in propaganda that by entering the EU all of our problems would magically disappear.[/COLOR]
Indigen: You are making a nonsensical point here because that is a logical outcome and is to be expected from an individual so affected. Why should it surprise you or anyone else that they would feel that way?

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: Again the leftist scum of our nation forced this policy into active political life where if anybody spoke against the EU was branded a traitor. Even though EU-scepticism today plays a major role in political life nobody is willing to say it out loud as of yet but give it time, it will happen.[/COLOR]

Indigen: Are, in your view, all “leftists” scum and all “rightists” (right-wing politicians/activists) angels? Do you think such simpleton generalisations hold any traction outside the knuckle-heads who sling such ridiculous slogans and their equally politically stupid followers in Mk? IMO, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a “leftist” and a “rightist” politicians in MK as they all are VASSAL looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the common man and Macedonian national sovereignty.


[B]Julie: Why do Macedonians insist on giving up everything in the 21st century just to gain entry into EU (who will give Macedonia a lovely debt to pay off Greece debt ??[/B]

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: We are not giving up anything, let alone everything. [/COLOR]
Indigen: This has to be the most RIDICULOUS statement ever!

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: We had very little on the day of our independence and built ourselves up to almost looking like a prosperous nation.[/COLOR]
Indigen: What we are looking like is A NATIONAL LAB RAT IN THE DECONSTRUCTION ROOM undergoing major surgical national modifications and coming out after each operation looking more and more nationally and ethnically disfigured. When all these national and identity IC laboratory experiments are finished, I am afraid Macedonia and Macedonians will not exist as a recognised and recognisable form (entity) for others to see.

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: The political party in power isn't all that interested in selling out since EU-scepticism is on the rise[/COLOR]
Indigen: You could have fooled me and many others! :-)

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: but again the leftist scum use this as their political propaganda platform and slur everything in our state to anybody willing to listen.[/COLOR]
Indigen: Right, are you saying that it is all the fault of SDSM and Co and DPMNE are the “patriotic” angels!? :-)


[B]OziMak: That says a lot about us as a nation.[/B]

Indigen: It is not anything genetic about our nation that prevents it from having a fighting spirit but rather it is because those that have ruled over them since 1945 have instilled and enforced a substandard (anti) national feeling in the Macedonia nation and thus fighting spirit is weak.


[B]OM: Right now anything we do to thwart their advancements jeopardises us to an unaccepted level. The moment they lose the support of the western powers is the moment for payback.
[/B]
Indigen: Another stupid VASSAL-minded illogical conclusion.


[COLOR="Navy"]PP: I personally still hold the view that the government will not change the name despite their political doublespeak[/COLOR]

Indigen: I really don't give a shit what you think but stop spreading your worthless BS because there might still be some misguided and uninformed individuals who buy into your absurdities.


[B]Jankovska: Scare tactic? When was the last time you went to Kumanovo, Skopje, don't get me started on Tetovo, Gostivar, Kicevo? You should be scared and every Macedonian should be scared. In Tetovo and Gostivar you cannot find a sign written in Macedonian. Have you passed through Arachinovo? I have no idea what world you live in.[/B]

PP: You may not know what world I live in but I know what world you live in. The name of that world is Cowardlandia.
Indigen: I wonder how you would view things if you and your family lived there in Arachinovo? Why don't you buy one of those housed from Tetovo Macedonians and lead us by example of how easy and safe it is living under UCK rule?

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: BTW, I went window shopping for furniture in Arachinovo just 2 months ago. Last week I went to Tetovo to buy used spare parts for my car and low and behold I’m still alive.[/COLOR]
Indigen: I am assuming that you must now be employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA” and you are no longer “protiv”(anything by) them but PROTIV the Macedonian activists, it would seem! :-)

[COLOR="Navy"]PP: Here's some well intentioned advice for you:
If you find yourself surrounded in darkness all you need to do is to light a candle.[/COLOR]
Indigen: Your are a beacon of shining ideological light, there is no doubt about that and your advice would be most appropriate to try if you are in enemy territory (at night) and they are looking to hunt you down.

Bratot 12-03-2010 04:32 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;80795]Jankovska, you stick it to this character because I think it is very questionable whether he/she is at all related to the original PP, who was an articulate and ardent anti-Ramkovist back in 2001-3. Whilst it is possible for people to switch (flip-flop) in Macedonian politics (and we have lots of examples of that), [B]I am at present thinking someone is playing mind games with the MTO, yet again[/B].[/QUOTE]

Lets ban him, what do you say?

And let you be the only one that write on this forum. (maybe a few others if you recognize their right to repeat after you)

It is questionable how you give conclussion out of hand without even having a clue on the person you refer in the post.

I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.

[QUOTE=indigen;80798]Indigen: It is called CAPITULATION and TREASON and [B]your apologist propaganda [/B]is reeking of a RAMKOVIST sales pitch! [B]That means we have ourselves yet another SALESMAN for RAMKOVISM – RAMKOVIST AGENT OF PROPAGANDA[/B]! :-)

Indigen: Are you now trying to be [B]an apologist for the BUGAROMAN and UCK COALITION[/B] “Government” that was about to fall towards the end of 2000? Why would they be committing genocide by driving out or eliminating a few hundred (or few thousand) foreign (and their local appendages) armed TERRORISTS? Is this not done by all sovereign states around the world and is it not what was required by the constitution?

Indigen: And they lost the title deeds to their country! It is easy to “save lives” when you give up what is yours without a fight. Macedonian is de-facto PARTITIONED and the real PP back in 2001-3 acted as an ardent anti-Ramkovist (at least that is what I tremember him to be back then) and [B]now appears to have switched sides and is spinning BS anti-Macedonian propaganda. [/B] Or maybe you are NOT the same person at all and are just some mischieous character with maliscous intent using an existing alias identity!?

Indigen: Pull the other one, [B]Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist[/B]! In fact Macedonia was given a good chance to eliminate the TERRORISTS but they were inefficient in doing so. And how could a Bugaroman-UCK coalition Government be anything but inefficient in defending Macedonian national interest?

Indigen: Perhaps they (SDSM and Co) voted for it in August of 1992 with a clear plan to give it away (and they were ready to do so in November of the same year) but DPMNE and DP opposition stopped them from doing it then. It was clearly (all but officially) given away in April of 1993 when no flag was raised at the UN and a “Temporary Reference” was accepted for “two months” only but it could not be officially legalised in the MK parliament due to DPMNE MP numbers and opposition. The final deed had to wait further political schemes and machinations before it was enacted in late 1995.

And this cheap “socialist scum” empty slogans of yours are really outdated , worn-out and sound so out of tune that I think you should avoid using them if you want to retain what little credibility you have considering that Petar Goshev, Stojan Andov, Vasil Tupurkovski, Dzingo, Slobodan Chasule and many others were at one time or another allies of the “right-wingers” (who themselves were led by the likes of Dosta Dimovska, a Marxist professor). And ALL of them together have had one main interest in coming to power – enrich themselves, their family members and friends and enjoy lording it over the ordinary people.

Indigen: I am assuming here that you are talking about the original 1992 Flag with the 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol?

Indigen: The above is as clear as mud to me and hard to understand what it is you are trying to say.

Indigen” Nobody can force you to sign away your title deeds to your country – WE WERE BETRAYED AND SOLD OUT!

Indigen: Blah, blah, blah....Excuses for CAPITULATION and TREASON and nothing more!

Indigen: Again YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD and a stupid [B]apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now[/B]. Did Gruevski (as government minister) not vote for the Ramkoven Dogovor, as did most of the DPMNE MPs back in 2001? Is Ivanov not a former socialist?

Indigen: And why do they keep voting for them then? Why do they not protest and force them to stop?

Indigen: It really is amazing what “sterile” minds (and opportunists bent on self-interest) can conjure up, is it not? :-)

Indigen: If I remember rightly (from Ajvar Forum days), PP was also an ardent anti-Ramkovist back then [B]but this “PP” now, IMO, is playing the role of an APOLOGIST for the RAMKOVISTS and other VASSAL politicians and their anti-Macedonian deeds. [/B]What changed your views? [U]And the PP site is (and has always been) decorated with Ventilator iconography to boot, which has (and will) always repulse me ideologically.[/U].

Indigen: You are making a nonsensical point here because that is a logical outcome and is to be expected from an individual so affected. Why should it surprise you or anyone else that they would feel that way?

Indigen: Are, in your view, all “leftists” scum and all “rightists” (right-wing politicians/activists) angels? Do you think such simpleton generalisations hold any traction outside the knuckle-heads who sling such ridiculous slogans and their equally politically stupid followers in Mk? IMO, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a “leftist” and a “rightist” politicians in MK as they all are VASSAL looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the common man and Macedonian national sovereignty.

Indigen: This has to be the most RIDICULOUS statement ever!

Indigen: What we are looking like is A NATIONAL LAB RAT IN THE DECONSTRUCTION ROOM undergoing major surgical national modifications and coming out after each operation looking more and more nationally and ethnically disfigured. When all these national and identity IC laboratory experiments are finished, I am afraid Macedonia and Macedonians will not exist as a recognised and recognisable form (entity) for others to see.

Indigen: You could have fooled me and many others! :-)

Indigen: Right, are you saying that it is all the fault of SDSM and Co and DPMNE are the “patriotic” angels!? :-)

Indigen: It is not anything genetic about our nation that prevents it from having a fighting spirit but rather it is because those that have ruled over them since 1945 have instilled and enforced a substandard (anti) national feeling in the Macedonia nation and thus fighting spirit is weak.

Indigen: Another [B]stupid VASSAL-minded[/B] illogical conclusion.

Indigen:[B] I really don't give a shit what you think but stop spreading your worthless BS because there might still be some misguided and uninformed individuals who buy into your absurdities.[/B]
Indigen: [B]I wonder how you would view things if you and your family lived there in Arachinovo?[/B] Why don't you buy one of those housed from Tetovo Macedonians and lead us by example of how easy and safe it is living under UCK rule?

Indigen:[B] I am assuming that you must now be employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA”[/B] and you are no longer “protiv”(anything by) them but PROTIV the Macedonian activists, it would seem! :-)

Indigen: Your are a beacon of shining ideological light, there is no doubt about that and your advice would be most appropriate to try if you are in enemy territory (at night) and they are looking to hunt you down.[/QUOTE]

indigen 12-03-2010 05:21 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;80799]Lets ban him, what do you say?

And let you be the only one that write on this forum. (maybe a few others if you recognize their right to repeat after you)[/QUOTE]
It is not for me to decide but if I was working on collecting people of a similar ideological persuasion to attain a goal, I certainly would be giving less opportunities to my ideological enemies to be using my resources to spread their propaganda. That would include Grks, Bulgars, Serbs, Ghegs and any of their apologists for starters.

[QUOTE]It is questionable how you give conclussion out of hand without even having a clue on the person you refer in the post.[/QUOTE]
Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was an anti-Ramkovist.

[quote]I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.[/QUOTE]

Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)

How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically?

Bratot 12-03-2010 06:40 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;80804]
Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was a strong anti-Ramkovist, and if I were to look hard (which I will not at this stage) in my archives, [B]I might be able to find a few posts of the old PP because they were quite illuminating and patriotic[/B]. [/QUOTE]

Well you may show some basic respect if that is the case and be glad that he is again with us.

[QUOTE]Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)[/QUOTE]

I just happen to know him better than your forum diaries.

[QUOTE]How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically? [/QUOTE]

Since you based your insinuations on assumption only, implying he got his views changed.
You didn't even gave him a opportunity to declare again his opinion stricktly on that, but you jumped on him pretty convincible.

I think, no, wait, I'm pretty sure you are really going to get it more often from now on.

Onur 12-03-2010 07:51 AM

[FONT="Verdana"][QUOTE=Big Bad Sven;80770]
I have to laugh at the internet shiptars who boast that western macedonia has always been populated by shiptars. Its a lie, as the documents show the shiptar pressence has increased in western macedonia because of macedonians leaving their homes and fanatical shiptar colonization of those areas.

I was speaking to dad and uncles a few days ago and they told me that back in the 60's and 70's places like Struga, Gostivar and Kicevo had an extremely small number of shiptars, and the only places that had lots of shiptars were Tetovo and Skopje...

I would say even Debar would have been more macedonian in those times but unfortunately our weak minded torbeshi brothers have fallen in love to the all mighty gheg dollar and changed sides.
[/QUOTE]


I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

[B]I posted population statistics in this thread b4;[/B]
[QUOTE=Onur;67804]
[IMG]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg[/IMG]

According to the survey done by Turkish government after these immigrants came to Turkey; %47 of them said that their mothertongue is Turkish, about %19 reports as Albanian, %34 Macedonian. So, we can say that only %19 of them was Albanian but %34 of them was Torbesh people. This %19 also fits with the cencus results since if 135.000 Albanians would be expelled to Turkey in that period, there was no way in hell you could double your population in Macedonia at the same period of time. Also we can clearly see the major decline of Turkish population for the same period.[/QUOTE]

In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.[/FONT]

protivpropaganda 12-03-2010 09:39 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;80804]
Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was a strong anti-Ramkovist, and if I were to look hard (which I will not at this stage) in my archives, [B]I might be able to find a few posts of the old PP because they were quite illuminating and patriotic[/B].

I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)

How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically?[/QUOTE]

So, I have a fan on this forum. Who would've thought. Actually I haven't met somebody who openly is willing to acknowledge my existence and the things I have done in the period of our fight for independence. But I do meet people who would educate me on how to protect myself from propaganda by using the knowledge they have begotten from my own site. Such people would persistently explain to me the problems of our society while quoting my posts I have written or the speeches I have given using my exact sentences and copying my word formation to the letter.
I guess everybody is smarter then me, everybody knows what is best for my people except me, everybody else is doing constant analysis of my society except me.
Maybe our politicians are right about one thing. Grab all the credit you can because no one will give it to you, grab all you can while you are in power because no one will be gratefull to you if you only work for the benefit of our people.
I have done what I did without seeking any acknowledgement for the effort, nor will I seek anything for my present and future efforts to create a prosperous and happy Macedonia. But I will not stand idly by while some ignorant fool who is still living the komiti and vojvodi years calls me a ramkovist apologist.

Fan or not your lack of knowledge of the situation we find ourselves in Macedonia and the conditions thereoff is disgracefull. Your willingness to attack your own if they do not fit into your miniscule and outdated worldview only shows the lack of respect for your compatriots, your ignorance of the social and societal in Macedonia leaves a lot to be desired and your patriotic behaviour is most questionable since all you do is bark at the moon without a clue as to what is really needed to be done for improving our present position nor do you have an idea as to which ailments should be cured first. Actually you do not even have the right diagnosis of what ails our society. You would remove our extremities in order to cure our cold.
I'm fed up with such patriots as you who sensesly holler war only to cover up their yellow bellies. Your rants and your skewed sense of what is a patriot of one's own people is detrimental to our cause as a people since you do not work for unity but you do continually disunite if things do not go only your way.
You can't see the bigger picture because you constantly focus only on one dot and with that you are convinced that it is you that can see, all else is blind. It is people like you who would gladly sacrifice others in order to satisfy your hunger for recognition... You are a prime example of an egalitarian collectivist or to be more precise a socialistically indoctrinated creature who is always acting through emotions instead of through reason.
I know, all to well, that the hardest thing that anyone can accomplish on this planet is to wake up somebody who is pretending to sleep but I do not give up easily when it comes to my Macedonians. So wake up and start reading me more carefully this time. You became a better patriot in the Ajvar years from reading my posts and my site. It is time for an upgrade. Things have changed dramatically from then as much as they have remained the same. It is much more complicated today then your silly and ignorant show of forcefull machoism which, if enacted, will lead only to destruction of what has already been achieved.
It is one thing to succefully propagate anticommunism since it only needs agitation in order to peek the aggressive emotions of the targeted. Today agitation alone doesn't cut it nor just having the will to help. Today we must face the social engineering head on with our own psychological operations. In order to have any success this must be done in an organised fashion which complicates things even more since we are a very disorganised bunch and I will not mention that besides people with courage and knowledge money is needed in order to have any kind of effect.



You wanted the old Protivpropaganda... You got him.

To the rest I will remain on an intellectual level befitting a person who wishes to communicate with other people of simmiliar leanings.

Prolet 12-03-2010 01:36 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;80825][FONT="Verdana"]


I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

[B]I posted population statistics in this thread b4;[/B]


In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Onur, There are many Torbeshi in Debar and basically they are the ones who are keeping our ethnicity alive there, i know that Centar Zhupa is a Turkish Municipality and Turkish is the official language there, i've read reports from the Mayor and he said alot of the people from the diaspora are keeping it alive and are investing alot in that municipality, they have alot of projects there and i think things are moving in the right direction. Debar is very close to Centar Zhupa and these cities are very small you're looking at 4-5 thousand people, unfortunately its very difficult to live with the Albanian minorities who constantly push this government for more things when for example the Turkish Minority around that region has never made any problems at all.

The Albanians always want to be in the front line and only care for themselves, they openly push for their language to be promoted everywhere, have their flag raised while all our other ethnic minorities dont do this. Now that head of the Islamic Community Council Sulejman Efendi Redzepi openly called for Macedonia to be cantonised and become similar to Switzerland this will fuel deep division in our region and tensions will rise will rise for sure not only with our people but with all the minorities in Macedonia aswell. In the Old Bazaar in Skopje which was built by the Ottoman Turks and it has been in our culture for 600 years, you have Albanians trying to take over parts of it and build their own monuments like the rebuilding of the old Ottoman Mosque which is a sacred site there and archeologists still havnt discovered whats under there, the Albanians are rebuilding it for themselves without a building permit. I can imagine how the Ethnic Ottoman Turks feel about it since they've done so much more and basically all the historical monuments they've built over the past 6 centuries are slowly being taken over by Albanian Nationalists, the mosques are already been taken over and now IVZ which is manipulated by the Albanians wants to take Ottoman Build projects for themselves, they even put Albanian flags on them.

fyrOM 12-03-2010 01:49 PM

[B]Indigen[/B] you give me too much credit.

In your Post038 you credit me with certain statements. Bar the last one…[I]I personally still hold the view that the government will not change the name despite their political doublespeak[/I]…I didn’t say them.

I might not have bothered replying if they were good statements but…

fyrOM 12-03-2010 02:15 PM

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;80735]
The shiptar isn't as strong as we are weak at the moment but if push comes to shove we will rise to the occasion as we did in 2001. They do seem like an unstoppable force for now...Right now anything we do to thwart their advancements jepardises us to an unaccepted level. The moment they lose the support of the western powers is the moment for payback.

Armed conflict with the shiptars is inevitable. The best we can do is to correctly choose the right time to genocide their disgusting islamic butts. This time we wont accept mediation of peace until the last shiptar has fled our country.:[/QUOTE]

If you really think waiting for he right moment is the answer then you have totally missed the point and all is lost.

The Albanians are a willing pawn I the west’s attempt to destroy what’s left of Macedonia…I don’t think the west expected us to still be around. The Albanians will never loose the support of the west so long as there is a Macedonia…even if the name and identity were changed I don’t think the support would end until RoM is busted up and incapable of ever becoming a threat again.

Legally stopping them at every turn is an option the government could try…you think.

George S. 12-03-2010 02:48 PM

What can be done now to solve the albanian crisis short of wiping them out.??

Niko777 12-03-2010 03:05 PM

[QUOTE]Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census. [/QUOTE]

This is the F***in problem! Where is the Macedonian government? The government should be paying or at least [U]encouraging [/U]the Macedonian Muslims (Torbeshi) to marry Albanian women and assimilate them in Macedonian families! Instead, the government isn't doing shit and the reversal is happening! Look what Greece did, they paid Greeks and the prosfygas to marry Macedonian women, and it worked, thousands of Macedonians have been assimilated into the Greek identity this way! For crying out loud, this is why we have a Macedonian Republic, to look after the interests of the Macedonians!

protivpropaganda 12-03-2010 08:15 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;80852]If you really think waiting for he right moment is the answer then you have totally missed the point and all is lost.[/QUOTE]
Ozi,
I would love to be proven wrong on this point but the fact remains that we have a much bigger problem that forces us to always play it safe rather then to deal with this problem straight on. You forgot to put SDSM and those that support that party into the calculation of your formula.

[QUOTE]The Albanians are a willing pawn I the west’s attempt to destroy what’s left of Macedonia…I don’t think the west expected us to still be around. The Albanians will never loose the support of the west so long as there is a Macedonia…even if the name and identity were changed I don’t think the support would end until RoM is busted up and incapable of ever becoming a threat again.[/QUOTE]
I agree that we have surprised everybody with our resilience and commitment to exist but I fail to see to whom are we such a threat except to our neghbouring states.
In any case, if the west wished to dismantle Macedonia they would have done it already. There are several factors that play a key role in our defiant existence and the major one is that they aren't sure how Macedonians would react to a dismantling of our state. Why radicalise a group when it is already in an apathetic and defetistic mood? They even keep the shiptars in check in order to keep us in this mood.
If we start behaving according to our great heritage and not like tsigani then we would lower the cognitive dissonance that we are provoking. All we need to do is wake up and smell the coffee. If we want to be treated like Macedonians then we should behave like Macedonians. This, ofcourse, doesn't mean that we should start conquering again. What it means is that if we are an ancient people of greatness then we should start behaving accordingly. We claim greatness but we behave in a very lowly fashion like beggars.
As soon we give off proof as such the support for the shiptars will be no more.

[QUOTE]Legally stopping them at every turn is an option the government could try…you think.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you but do take into account the fact that all they are trying to do is to provoce us into a conflict situation.
They brake the law. Law enforcement steps in to uphold the law. They attack law enforcement with civil unrest and start crying to the west that they are being repressed. Our neighbouring states help the destabilisation by confirming the repression and... We are in trouble again.
Legality is one thing. Presenting oneself as constanly being repressed is another and the shiptars are masters at crying to everyone that they are being repressed even though they repress the other minorities in such an uncivilised way.
This may seem as a no win situation but it isn't since it holds a solution beneficial to us. First we create support for ourselves as a democratic country and stabilise our economy then we can put them in their rightfull place. Even though there are numerous problems things are begining to move in the right direction. Today most of the psychological operations (propaganda) in Macedonia is aimed at stopping these processes.
This is very complex and it can't be thoroughly explained in one post but I think that one can get a general picture as what is needed to be done.

Serres Macedonia 12-04-2010 12:09 AM

Guys the Albaniazation of the Balkans is an issue truly underestimated! The spread of Albanians to all corners of the Balkans is bewildering. In 2005 I toured most of Europe and I made special effort to tour all of Macedonia (Aegean, Pirin and Vardar). I was aware of the Albanians living in Macedonia and Serbia but I was astounded the amount of Albanians living in Aegean Macedonia. I visited Aegean Macedoniain 1988 and the amount of Albanians living there at that time was almost zero. The Albanians are like a cancer in the region. While Macedonians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs argue about old ethnic rivalries the Albanians are growing in population and in power. At the rate they are currently multiplying I would say that there is a real chance GREATER ALBANIA will incorporate Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia (Greece) and a good part of Serbia in the next 10 - 20 years!

Vangelovski 12-04-2010 01:05 AM

Protivpropaganda,

You have made a number of claims about the situation in Macedonia, including making the statement that the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia' is nothing more than scaremongering.

From what you have posted, it is quite clear that you have based this assessment on a number of false and unsubstantiated assumptions. Further, it appears that it is you that is actually promoting a number of scaremongering claims about Macedonian freedom and whether it can and/or should be exercised.

In relation to the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia', the point to be made is not that Macedonian individuals are being 'Albanianised' (though some Macedonian Muslims have been and this is a serious issue), but that the Macedonian state (i.e., its laws and institutions) are being 'Albanianised'. The proof of this is quite clear - the Framework Agreement and its implementation to date.

Secondly, sovereignty lies with the body of citizens. In this case, it is the Macedonian people. With sovereignty also comes responsibility. You cannot claim that the Macedonian people (i.e., the body of citizens) are an innocent party in the Framework Agreement capitulation and that the reponsibility for capitulation lies soley with the government of the day or international power politics (whatever that is). Further, a citizens responsibility entails defending the sovereignty of the body of citizens. This may be a new concept to you, but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen. At the end of the day the body of citizens are ultimately responsible for their own freedom and affairs. If the body of citizens do not wish to defend their freedom (i.e., sovereignty), then they don't really deserve it.

protivpropaganda 12-04-2010 04:31 PM

Oh well, I guess you are just another person who thinks that he knows more about social engineering then me. Do you really think that by outdoing me you would become a much cooler dude?
I am not a threat to any Macedonian but it is an error in judgement if one cosiders me a pacifist.

[QUOTE][B]This may be a new concept to you[/B], but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen.[/QUOTE]
You really didn't need to attempt to belittle me. Your post was intelectual enough without this childish attempt.
Well, what is done is done. So, as I see it, I can either give you a second chance, in a somewhat christian sense, to prove yourself as an intellectuall or I can show you the error of your ways in a eye for an eye vendictive form of behaviour.
Since you are a Macedonian only choosing one of the choices would show to be detrimental to Macedonian unity I so subscribe to. Since nothing is simple or black and white concerning Macedonian behaviour, I will choose e mixture of both.
First I will prove to you that you are bringing a knife to a gun fight... Or better yet to an artillery barrage. Then you can choose either to cooperate or continue to be a fool.
Oh... And... BTW, your terminology isn't correct. By using the word citizen instead of the word individual you are defacing and devaluating the individual by branding him with an strictly orginised society. Citizens have someone who orders them what to do, when and where. The individual, on the other hand, through reason and his morality does what is right.
Actually, you are using leftist, or should I say statist, terminology. The difference isn't large but it does exist.


[QUOTE=Vangelovski;80902]Protivpropaganda,
You have made a number of claims about the situation in Macedonia, including making the statement that the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia' is nothing more than scaremongering.[/QUOTE]
Actually someone else made the statement you are reffering to, you just picked up on it and used it.
Scare tactics or scare and sell as it is called is a scheme most widely used in marketing because of its sophisticated form of persuasion, but I guess you knew that already, right? When used in psyops it is called scare tactics.
Scaremongering is a laymans term denoting passive aggressive behaviour but I guess you knew this already, didn't you? I can tell, really I can.

[QUOTE]From what you have posted, it is quite clear that you have based this assessment on a number of false and unsubstantiated assumptions. Further, it appears that it is you that is actually promoting a number of scaremongering claims about Macedonian freedom and whether it can and/or should be exercised.[/QUOTE]
Do you know what Boza is? We have a saying about the clarity of Boza. Do you know it? That is how clear your assesment of my assement is.
I guess that you came to such a conclusion through your vast knowledge of psychology, sociology and socio-psychology or maybe you came to your conclusion while consulting your over two decades of analysis and study of our society. Maybe your experience from your work done in our society did the trick.

[QUOTE]In relation to the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia', the point to be made is not that Macedonian individuals are being 'Albanianised' (though some Macedonian Muslims have been and this is a serious issue), but that the Macedonian state (i.e., its laws and institutions) are being 'Albanianised'. The proof of this is quite clear - the Framework Agreement and its implementation to date.[/QUOTE]
OK, no argument here it is what it is but your point is...?

[QUOTE]Secondly, sovereignty lies with the body of citizens. In this case, it is the Macedonian people. With sovereignty also comes responsibility. You cannot claim that the Macedonian people (i.e., the body of citizens) are an innocent party in the Framework Agreement capitulation and that the reponsibility for capitulation lies soley with the government of the day or international power politics (whatever that is). Further, a citizens responsibility entails defending the sovereignty of the body of citizens. This may be a new concept to you, but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen. At the end of the day the body of citizens are ultimately responsible for their own freedom and affairs. If the body of citizens do not wish to defend their freedom (i.e., sovereignty), then they don't really deserve it.[/QUOTE]
From which socialist author did you get this? I will not discuss philosophy with you because it will be a waste of my time. Do you really believe everything you read?
The west used their millitary power to assert their interests and politics on us (power politics). Through threats and bribes and a whole bunch of scare tactics apathised and defetised the Macedonian individual to a point where he didn't care anymore. The success achieved in defetising the Macedonian individual was helped by a certain political party and the media. All they had to do is threaten the other politicians and the deal was shut.

To claim that the Macedonian people are as guilty as our "elite" is a show of sillyness, not to mention extreme ignorance that comes from watching, uncritically, too much Macedonian news reports and talk shows.
The Macedonians rose to the occasion in a fashion that spurs out pride to be a Macedonian. Not all Macedonians fled to local beach resorts, as propaganda would have you believe, just those who were members of SDSM and some of those that had the money to do so. There were a lot of them, more then needed, who volunteered for the fight but were turned down, yours trully included.
The fierceness with which they fought was another wonder and a very good reason to be proud to be a Macedonian.

We are a nation without leaders who are living out the consequences of our long struggle for independence. We are so in need of leaders that we proclaim presidents of political parties as leaders regardless. Those that are proclaimed as leaders in a short time acquire a behaviour as rulers while our people are drowning in a Hobbesian jungle under a very heavy burdeon of the devide and conquer scheme.

If you say your people also carry the guilt then by your leftist egalitarean and collectivistic ideology you carry the burdeon of guilt also.
Are you guilty for the signing of the Framework agreement?

Oh... and... BTW, it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual. This is the original to your statist derivative.


P.S.
If the members of this forum do not wish to have me around then all they have to do is ask the administrator to ban me from the forum.
All I'm doing here is defending myself from people who think they are patriots if they belittle anyone they percieve as a threat to their imagined, not proven, intellectuality.

Ban me if you do not want me here. Otherwise do try to cooperate, I'm all for it.

Risto the Great 12-04-2010 05:21 PM

Welcome protivpropaganda.
I am sure we all agree that (referring to the title of this thread) there is a serious Albanianisation of Macedonia going on. I guess we could all debate why this is happening but I think most would agree the USA had something to do with it in recent times.
[QUOTE=protivpropaganda]
There are several factors that play a key role in our defiant existence and the major one is that they aren't sure how Macedonians would react to a dismantling of our state. Why radicalise a group when it is already in an apathetic and defetistic mood? They even keep the shiptars in check in order to keep us in this mood.
If we start behaving according to our great heritage and not like tsigani then we would lower the cognitive dissonance that we are provoking. All we need to do is wake up and smell the coffee. If we want to be treated like Macedonians then we should behave like Macedonians. This, ofcourse, doesn't mean that we should start conquering again. What it means is that if we are an ancient people of greatness then we should start behaving accordingly. We claim greatness but we behave in a very lowly fashion like beggars.[/QUOTE]
I cannot see how this message deviates from Vangelovski's message. Though you do appear to despise the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia more.

Given your reference to our great heritage, how do you logically progress from a statement about "Macedonians behaving accordingly"? I look forward to your response because you have made it clear that the "individuals" are not to blame in Macedonia.
[QUOTE=protivpropaganda] it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys[/QUOTE]From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.

Serdarot 12-04-2010 05:32 PM

kaj si be PP :)

to be baned as a sign of welcome is kind of normal here :P

btw...

mnogu mi e interesno da gledam so koj se "zakacivte" odma, odnosno koi kucinja i kucki odma sakat da te pomocat, demek da si ja obelezat teritorijata :D

ama ne znat deka si imat rabota so shinter ;)

uzivaj na forumot, i se citame / gledame

pozdrav


at indigen: brat, lugjeto se menuvaat, nekoi i se prodavaat, ama mislam deka ovaj star volk ne menva kozhata, tuku samo ima smenato nacinot na lovenje...

poso i ofcite (shiptarite) gi menvat taktikite i izvorite na koi pijat voda, taka treba povremeno i da se menva taktikata so koja ke gi kolis

lovis de...

apeal to all of you:

STOP with fundamentalist Christian bs!

some of you spit on the Muslims, and i asure you, we have much more true friends between the Muslims, than between our "Orthodox Brothers"!

PP, i ti isto brat, ne se razbacavaj so anti-islamski sranja, mnogu losa propaganda e to za nas Makedoncite, poso i del od nas se Muslimani ;)

Risto the Great 12-04-2010 05:42 PM

[QUOTE=Serdarot;80945]to be baned as a sign of welcome is kind of normal here :P[/QUOTE]
What a stupid statement Serdarot.
I think we have banned 2 Macedonians in 2 years (for good reason too). If you are not a Macedonian, you might have something to worry about.

Serdarot 12-04-2010 06:00 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;80948]What a stupid statement Serdarot.
I think we have banned 2 Macedonians in 2 years (for good reason too). If you are not a Macedonian, you might have something to worry about.[/QUOTE]

keep it cool , Risto :)

it is forgiven, that i was banned here...

and if it was good or bad or no reason, is questionable, but as i mentioned, it is forgiven...

i can also say: what a stupid decision it was, to ban a Serdar...

let stay on "keep it cool" , Unity we Need, not some smalltalk...

Vangelovski 12-04-2010 09:18 PM

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Oh well, I guess you are just another person who thinks that he knows more about social engineering then me. Do you really think that by outdoing me you would become a much cooler dude?
I am not a threat to any Macedonian but it is an error in judgement if one cosiders me a pacifist.

You really didn't need to attempt to belittle me. Your post was intelectual enough without this childish attempt.
Well, what is done is done. So, as I see it, I can either give you a second chance, in a somewhat christian sense, to prove yourself as an intellectuall or I can show you the error of your ways in a eye for an eye vendictive form of behaviour.
Since you are a Macedonian only choosing one of the choices would show to be detrimental to Macedonian unity I so subscribe to. Since nothing is simple or black and white concerning Macedonian behaviour, I will choose e mixture of both.
First I will prove to you that you are bringing a knife to a gun fight... Or better yet to an artillery barrage. Then you can choose either to cooperate or continue to be a fool.
Oh... And... BTW, your terminology isn't correct. By using the word citizen instead of the word individual you are defacing and devaluating the individual by branding him with an strictly orginised society. Citizens have someone who orders them what to do, when and where. The individual, on the other hand, through reason and his morality does what is right.
Actually, you are using leftist, or should I say statist, terminology. The difference isn't large but it does exist. [/quote]
PP,

I don’t post to measure my “intellectual” ability. I post to make a point. As for your artillery barrage of “intellectualism”, I’m unimpressed. Perhaps that passes as “intellectualism” in your circles, but that is considered irrelevant horn-blowing in the rest of the world. Your association of the concept of ‘citizenship’ with socialism is probably because you are not very well read. You might want to think about where the concept of citizenship was developed, under what socio-political circumstances and what it actually means as opposed to what you think it means.

We could talk about individuals, but an individual is not necessarily a citizen of the state and therefore has no political rights or responsibilities in relation to other citizens.
[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Actually someone else made the statement you are reffering to, you just picked up on it and used it.
Scare tactics or scare and sell as it is called is a scheme most widely used in marketing because of its sophisticated form of persuasion, but I guess you knew that already, right? When used in psyops it is called scare tactics.
Scaremongering is a laymans term denoting passive aggressive behaviour but I guess you knew this already, didn't you? I can tell, really I can.


Do you know what Boza is? We have a saying about the clarity of Boza. Do you know it? That is how clear your assesment of my assement is.

I guess that you came to such a conclusion through your vast knowledge of psychology, sociology and socio-psychology or maybe you came to your conclusion while consulting your over two decades of analysis and study of our society. Maybe your experience from your work done in our society did the trick. [/quote] Your definition of scaremongering is basically YOURS. There is another, more commonly understood definition of the word which is used in a political context and not a marketing context. Besides, what exactly is your point? Or was this your artillery barrage of “intellectualism”?

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]From which socialist author did you get this? I will not discuss philosophy with you because it will be a waste of my time. Do you really believe everything you read?
The west used their millitary power to assert their interests and politics on us (power politics). Through threats and bribes and a whole bunch of scare tactics apathised and defetised the Macedonian individual to a point where he didn't care anymore. The success achieved in defetising the Macedonian individual was helped by a certain political party and the media. All they had to do is threaten the other politicians and the deal was shut.

To claim that the Macedonian people are as guilty as our "elite" is a show of sillyness, not to mention extreme ignorance that comes from watching, uncritically, too much Macedonian news reports and talk shows.
The Macedonians rose to the occasion in a fashion that spurs out pride to be a Macedonian. Not all Macedonians fled to local beach resorts, as propaganda would have you believe, just those who were members of SDSM and some of those that had the money to do so. There were a lot of them, more then needed, who volunteered for the fight but were turned down, yours trully included.
The fierceness with which they fought was another wonder and a very good reason to be proud to be a Macedonian.[/quote] PP, I never denied the role of foreign governments and our own vassal politicians. However, each and every citizen is responsible for their own personal and collective freedom. Certainly some Macedonians actively resisted the Framework Agreement, but it was a short-lived resistance. It is the responsibility of all Macedonians to continue this resistance.

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]If you say your people also carry the guilt then by your leftist egalitarean and collectivistic ideology you carry the burdeon of guilt also.
Are you guilty for the signing of the Framework agreement?[/quote] You need to read outside of your socialist book collection and understand what FREEDOM, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, REPUBLICANISM and CITIZENSHIP actually are and how they relate to each other.

Each and every Macedonian, including myself, holds moral responsibility towards reversing the Framework Agreement.

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Oh... and... BTW, it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual. This is the original to your statist derivative.[/quote] Actually, what you seem to be conveying is an anarchist idea, but maybe I’m not understanding you. If you do not accept the body of citizens as the basis of political organisation, and seek individualism instead, why is it that you need a leader?

I don't think we are too far removed from each other in relation to our views on Macedonia, but lets just wait and see.

Niko777 12-05-2010 11:16 AM

[COLOR="Red"][B][U]SKENDERBEU SQUARE - SKOPJE'S NEW SQUARE[/U][/B][/COLOR]

This project was approved by the Macedonian government:
Size: 24,000 square meters (a lot bigger than Macedonia Square)
Cost: 1 million euros
Location: 5 minute walk north-east from Macedonia square

According to the media, this [U]will[/U] be the new meeting place for the city because of its large size. This is a disgrace, the Albanian and American flags will be flown, the Albanian-language state university will have a building on the square, and let's not forget that statue of Skenderbeg. (Maybe I wouldn't have had such a big problem with the Skenderbeg statue IF THEY HAD written his name his name in MACEDONIAN, and placed a CROSS beside his name to highlight his Christian roots). Also, the square is open to future ideas like adding more statues of Albanian heroes (UCK?).

Here is the official video of the visualization. [U]Watch it carefully[/U].


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxgGGZ4fsF4&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Sheshi Skenderbeu 3d[/url]


Izet Medziti - Mayor of Skopje municipality Cair advertising the idea for the new square:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=navdds3CTuw]YouTube - IZET MEXHITI - Spoti Skenderbeu[/url]

fyrOM 12-05-2010 01:07 PM

The last post just left me deflated…why are we even bothering…who are you going to fight ant propaganda when its all state sponsored. What’s going to happen if anyone resists…the police arrest them…if they resist further…the army fights them to ensure the Albanians create the duplicity of all function of a society and government and creating a country within a country.

I really like your statement waiting for the right moment to put thing right…does that mean when they have fully established everything.

A useless pathetic people. They don’t even use the law when it is in their hands let alone later when it wont be.

If a person is too stupid to know what’s right just have a look at what the rest of the world is doing. What do other countries do…
One state flag for all including minorities
One state language
One state education system

Does only Macedonia have minorities and it is this new thing we need to figure out what to do with.
Does Australia Germany UK USA ect not have minorities. Do we see foreign state flags flying on government buildings. Does anyone have an idea why not.

fyrOM 12-05-2010 01:32 PM

Za dzabe se.

It looks like we in the diaspoa will keep talking to ourselves like a fart in the wind.

I understand that sometimes its necessary to take one step back to take two steps forward…the great plan…but it is now clear the great plan is to ease the country and the people into destruction…its easier to take a sleeping pill and not wake up. I would like to know how much everyone in government is being paid for his…I’m curious to know how much or collective identity is worth.

Prolet you seem to know a lot of inside stuff…any idea…maybe protivpropaganda can help you do the sums.

julie 12-05-2010 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;81101]The last post just left me deflated…why are we even bothering…who are you going to fight ant propaganda when its all state sponsored. What’s going to happen if anyone resists…the police arrest them…if they resist further…the army fights them to ensure the Albanians create the duplicity of all function of a society and government and creating a country within a country.

I really like your statement waiting for the right moment to put thing right…does that mean when they have fully established everything.

A useless pathetic people. They don’t even use the law when it is in their hands let alone later when it wont be.

If a person is too stupid to know what’s right just have a look at what the rest of the world is doing. What do other countries do…
One state flag for all including minorities
One state language
One state education system

Does only Macedonia have minorities and it is this new thing we need to figure out what to do with.
Does Australia Germany UK USA ect not have minorities. Do we see foreign state flags flying on government buildings. Does anyone have an idea why not.[/QUOTE]


Love it OziMak, excellent anology.Australia should do the same,
The government has approved it, and the people will sit and wait until its too late.
Pathetic, absolutely disgusting.
Am sick and tired of the wait, in a minute, the time is not right.
The time is right when government approves this rubbish
Australia does not have 200 minority groups flags flying on parliament house everywhere , nor the representatives in government.
Sick. Totally, fully garbage.
Just wait, wait until they are totally screwed, its utterly pathetic and abdominable. I cant palate this

Risto the Great 12-05-2010 03:21 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;81102]I understand that sometimes its necessary to take one step back to take two steps forward…the great plan…but it is now clear the great plan is to ease the country and the people into destruction…its easier to take a sleeping pill and not wake up. I would like to know how much everyone in government is being paid for his…I’m curious to know how much or collective identity is worth.[/QUOTE]

It is the war you have when you are not having a war.
Any reminder or symbol of this oppressive assortment (and agenda) of tactics needs to be eliminated.

Mastika 12-05-2010 04:46 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;81098]

According to the media, this [U]will[/U] be the new meeting place for the city because of its large size. This is a disgrace, the Albanian and American flags will be flown, the Albanian-language state university will have a building on the square, and let's not forget that statue of Skenderbeg. (Maybe I wouldn't have had such a big problem with the Skenderbeg statue IF THEY HAD written his name his name in MACEDONIAN, and placed a CROSS beside his name to highlight his Christian roots). Also, the square is open to future ideas like adding more statues of Albanian heroes (UCK?).[/QUOTE]

You are right 100%. It is disgraceful to have something like this built dedicated to someone who wasnt even from Macedonia and has had nothing to with the Macedonian people. And what is the American flag going to be there for?! Not to mention a few other unnecessary flags (Albanian/EU/Nato). It is a disgrace and makes me truly wonder what is happening to the motherland.

Risto the Great 12-05-2010 05:11 PM

[QUOTE=Mastika;81126]You are right 100%. It is disgraceful to have something like this built dedicated to someone who wasnt even from Macedonia and has had nothing to with the Macedonian people. And what is the American flag going to be there for?! Not to mention a few other unnecessary flags (Albanian/EU/Nato). It is a disgrace and makes me truly wonder what is happening to the motherland.[/QUOTE]

Might have to be called Nadaland soon.

Big Bad Sven 12-05-2010 09:07 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;81098][COLOR="Red"][B][U]SKENDERBEU SQUARE - SKOPJE'S NEW SQUARE[/U][/B][/COLOR]

This project was approved by the Macedonian government:
Size: 24,000 square meters (a lot bigger than Macedonia Square)
Cost: 1 million euros
Location: 5 minute walk north-east from Macedonia square

According to the media, this [U]will[/U] be the new meeting place for the city because of its large size. This is a disgrace, the Albanian and American flags will be flown, the Albanian-language state university will have a building on the square, and let's not forget that statue of Skenderbeg. (Maybe I wouldn't have had such a big problem with the Skenderbeg statue IF THEY HAD written his name his name in MACEDONIAN, and placed a CROSS beside his name to highlight his Christian roots). Also, the square is open to future ideas like adding more statues of Albanian heroes (UCK?).

Here is the official video of the visualization. [U]Watch it carefully[/U].


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxgGGZ4fsF4&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Sheshi Skenderbeu 3d[/url]


Izet Medziti - Mayor of Skopje municipality Cair advertising the idea for the new square:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=navdds3CTuw]YouTube - IZET MEXHITI - Spoti Skenderbeu[/url][/QUOTE]

Wow man, i have gotten pretty cynical lately because of the poor state of macedonia and macedonians and thought nothing could effect or offend me, but this actually feels like a huge kick in the balls to me.

What the hell is going on in macedonia? How can the government approve of this? They are basically SUPPORTING the albanization of our CAPITAL with our peoples money and tools/labour......

And the ironic thing is that we watched footage of macedonians whinging about the statue of alexander the great in skopje, but not a peep about the 1 MILLION EUROS used to turn skopje into the albanian disney land for shiptar nationalism!

Macedonia truely is living in some sort of backwards reality....

Big Bad Sven 12-05-2010 09:20 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;80825][FONT="Verdana"]


I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

[B]I posted population statistics in this thread b4;[/B]


In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Yes you make a very good point Onur, Tito expelled that large figure of torbeshi(macedonians) and turks(who have proven that they are very loyal to macedonians and maceonia).

Yet ironically Tito didnt touch a hair of the shiptars, who believe it or not where still fighting the yugoslavs after WW2 ended. I hear stories that Tito allowed more shiptars to come to macedonia when the plan of albania joining yugoslavia was in its middle stages........

Strange that Tito expelled almost all of the italians and germans (both nazi's) in croatia and slovenia but did fuck all to the albanian nazi's in macedonia.... however the true irony is that many macedonians think of tito as a "great man" even though he was the key to starting the albanianization of macedonia...

Its a real shame as to what is happening to the loyal turks of macedonia, they along with other good muslim people like the roma and bosniaks are being albanicized with the book of islam and the money of Suadi's and Egyptions. Its funny because i see a lot of similiaraties as to what is happening to the turks in terms of their religion and what happend to the macedonians because of their religion.....

The turks are being albanicized by the book of islam thanks to albanian mufti's who only speak in albanian and are nationalistic, just how macedonians a 100 years ago where srbonized/hellenized/bulgarorized thanks to grk/serb/bulgar priests and the good book of christ :)

Hence why im not so much a fan of religion these days :)

I think its pathetic that the macedonian government does nothing to help the poor turks, but if it makes you feel any better the macedonian government has never done anything to help poor macedonians who face shiptar terrorism so dont take it personally mate...

Дени 12-06-2010 06:28 AM

Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.

Vangelovski 12-06-2010 07:24 AM

[quote=Дени;81367]Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.[/quote]

I noticed that, but there aren't any Ghegs or Tosks in some of the areas it covers.

Дени 12-06-2010 09:08 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;81389]I noticed that, but there aren't any Ghegs or Tosks in some of the areas it covers.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not in any great numbers, but there are certainly Albanian speakers nevertheless.

Niko777 12-06-2010 10:53 AM

[QUOTE]Just a note that the map in the schoolbook is not that of Greater Albania but of the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk dialects.[/QUOTE]

The borders of the dialects was designed to fit those of a greater Albania. For example, according to the map there are many Albanian speakers [U]east[/U] of Bitola. This is not true.


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