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Дени 12-06-2010 05:22 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;81448]The borders of the dialects was designed to fit those of a greater Albania. For example, according to the map there are many Albanian speakers [U]east[/U] of Bitola. This is not true.[/QUOTE]

It's the other way around: Greater Albania was designed to include areas where Albanians live, albeit a little exaggerated.

Risto the Great 12-06-2010 05:44 PM

What do you mean by "a little" Deni?

Ottoman 12-06-2010 05:50 PM

Lol the same thing happens in Turkey too.

Дени 12-07-2010 04:52 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;81497]What do you mean by "a little" Deni?[/QUOTE]

Exactly that. Instead of only claiming majority Albanian areas, they also claim areas which may have very few Albanians, or the entire administrative area of which a smaller majority Albanian area is a part. The latter is especially true of Albanian chauvinists in Macedonia who advocate cantonization.

indigen 12-07-2010 04:58 AM

[QUOTE=Дени;81572]Exactly that. Instead of only claiming majority Albanian areas, [B]they also claim areas which may have very few Albanians, or the entire administrative area of which a smaller majority Albanian area is a part.[/B] The latter is especially true of Albanian chauvinists in Macedonia who advocate cantonization.[/QUOTE]

There is the TRUTH, as befits an MTO poster! But the plan for a mixed canton is obviously strategic forward planning whereby once an area is proclaimed as such the Ghegs and Tosks will have a claim to it and can proceed to expand into those areas over time (next few decades), feeling safe in the knowledge that, based on current statistics, they can win the demographics war.

protivpropaganda 12-07-2010 01:37 PM

Sorry for the delay on my reply but I had just too much going on (work) to do anything else.
[QUOTE]I don't think we are too far removed from each other in relation to our views on Macedonia, but lets just wait and see.[/QUOTE]
This changes almost everything.
Instead of a pissing contest which leads nowhere now we can try to find a common ground.

Taking into account the terminology you use by which you say it differently and yet you mean almost the same thing I'll bet my monthly salary that you have finnished either politicology or some higher education meant for employment in governmental administrative work since you quote Rawls as if it were the Bible (social contract theory is a good thing gone rotten). Also your views on individualism are scewed in ways only institutional education can scew it on college campuses where leftist proffesors thrive.
I'm an advocate against big government.
Do read the articleѕ Слобода to better understand.
[url]http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/protivpropaganda/fajlovi/politickitemilink.htm[/url]

[QUOTE]You need to read outside of your socialist book collection and understand what FREEDOM, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, REPUBLICANISM and CITIZENSHIP actually are and how they relate to each other.
Each and every Macedonian, including myself, holds moral responsibility towards reversing the Framework Agreement.[/QUOTE]

Now, what you advocate for Macedonia is old news since we have already formed a republic under liberal democracy and civil government (citizenship). The freedom part is somewhat vague but all in all on paper it seems like a Rawlian paradise.
Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.
Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.
The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.
Although the number of the latter is on a steady rise, as of yet aren't numerous enough to make a difference. Also the social proof in our society is against excelling in one's own life above the rest.
Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant.




P.S.
Let's not make the understanding of Macedonian society a pissing contest since I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.

Frank 12-07-2010 05:39 PM

Good analysis protivpropaganda

Vangelovski 12-07-2010 05:48 PM

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]Taking into account the terminology you use by which you say it differently and yet you mean almost the same thing I'll bet my monthly salary that you have finnished either politicology or some higher education meant for employment in governmental administrative work since you quote Rawls as if it were the Bible (social contract theory is a good thing gone rotten). Also your views on individualism are scewed in ways only institutional education can scew it on college campuses where leftist proffesors thrive.[/quote]

I never quote Rawls. I think what you call an "individual" and what I call a "citizen" are very similar. When I talk of a citizen I mean a FREE person who has a political relationship with other FREE people. Every person has natural rights AND responsibilities, as citizens of a particular state, they have additional rights and responsibilities. And I agree, the freedom of the individual is paramount.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]I'm an advocate against big government.[/quote] So am I.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]Now, what you advocate for Macedonia is old news since we have already formed a republic under liberal democracy and civil government (citizenship). The freedom part is somewhat vague but all in all on paper it seems like a Rawlian paradise.[/quote] Macedonia is neither a republic nor a liberal democracy and yes, the freedom part is vague.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.[/quote] I think this applies equally to the Macedonians as well as Albanians, but that is a generalisation.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.[/quote] This is the scaremongering I was talking about. The Macedonian government, or rather, the Macedonian people are not powerless to improve the situation, rather, they lack the will to do so for reasons you correctly raise below.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.[/quote] If I understand your idea of 'individualism' and 'social contract theory', then partially agreed.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant. [/quote] Agreed.

[quote=protivpropaganda;81627]I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.[/quote] You make too many assumptions about the people you're debating with.

Niko777 12-08-2010 11:43 PM

[B][U][COLOR="Red"]VILLAGES TURNING INTO CITIES: The Albanian settlements in Macedonia[/COLOR][/U][/B]

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But has anyone ever seen 5-floor apartment buildings in a village before? While Macedonian villages are on a decline, becoming deserted old age homes for the elderly and ghost towns, Albanian villages in Macedonia are booming with new construction. Albanian men are working abroad, mostly in Germany and Switzerland, and sending money home to their families. Macedonians who work abroad stay abroad and do not return. When leaving Macedonia, they sell their land to the Albanians, who will quickly make use of it and build a mansion.

Have you ever seen a 5 floor apartment building in a village before? How long will it be before these "villages" receive "city status"?

[U]selo Labunista, Struga: [/U]

Population in 1905: 600 Macedonian [U]Christians[/U]
Population in 2002: 400 Macedonian [U]Muslims[/U], [U]4,300 Albanian Muslims[/U], 1,000 Turkish Muslims, others, for a total population of [B]6,000[/B].

Historically a Macedonian village, but in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in. Just take a look at the houses, almost all of them in the picture have been built in the last 5 years - they still do not even have a facade!

[IMG]http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/14178764.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15368446.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15367122.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/17204144.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36071883.jpg[/IMG]

[U]Selo Bogovinje, Tetovo:[/U]

Population in 1929: [U]1,200 Macedonians[/U]
Population in 2002: [U][B]6,300[/B] Albanian Muslims! No Macedonians![/U]

What kind of "village" has 6,300 people? If this was in Eastern Macedonia, it would have been granted city status a long time ago.

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Bogovinje_01.JPG/800px-Bogovinje_01.JPG[/IMG]




I displayed two predominant Albanian villages with a population of 6,000+. There are also others, like selo Kamenjane near Tetovo with a population of 5,000+ Albanians. Soon they will reach 10,000 and officially become cities of their own. Now let me ask, how many ethnically Macedonian villages are there with a population of 6,000? or 5,000? or 4,000? None. And if there are any Macedonian villages that come close to a couple of thousand, trends show that they are shrinking in size, not growing. The number of luxury mansions being built by Albanians in western Macedonia is also unbelievable, all paid with euros and built with inspiration and experience from working in Germany and Switzerland.

It hurts me the most when you consider how close the whole village environment/theme is in our Macedonian culture and history, yet at the same time Macedonians today are totally abandoning the village when they should be developing and growing - if the Albanians can do it, why can't the Macedonians? Is it lazyness? Lack of hope? Greed for a better life in some western country?

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 12:29 AM

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;81627]The only way to stop the abuse of our system is to have as many strong individuals loving freedom among the Macedonians as humanly possible. It is only through individualism that social contract theory can be possible to exist succesfully. Unfortunately, the number of those that are heavily dependant upon the word of our politicians heavily outways the members of our society that want freedom (with responsibility) and the uncurtailed persuit of their happiness.
Although the number of the latter is on a steady rise, as of yet aren't numerous enough to make a difference. Also the social proof in our society is against excelling in one's own life above the rest.
Have in mind that only strong individuals hold the ability to be defiant. They are the ones who insist on upholding the rule of law by any means neccesary since they can objectively see the benefits of it. People who are like sheep or have slave mentality and serf behaviour aren't defiant.[/QUOTE]You have defined 2 groups: Strong defiant types AND slave/serf non-defiant types. You have associated the strong/defiant types with those who are committed to upholding the rule of the law. The Ohrid Agreement is the rule of the law. I fail to see the correlation of being strong/defiant whilst being compliant in this regard. Notwithstanding this, I agree there are 2 types and there are far less strong/defiant types than slave/serf types. Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia.

Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. We wish to know how we can convert this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. Your thoughts are most welcome.


[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;81627]P.S. Let's not make the understanding of Macedonian society a pissing contest since I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.[/QUOTE]
I think what you are really saying is "if we are gonna have a pissing contest, I will win". But that is fine, we want to learn from all Macedonians.

Bratot 12-09-2010 03:48 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;81987] Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia.

Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. [B]We wish to know how we can convert [/B]this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. .[/QUOTE]

Acknowledging a group and addressing to the group is not a case of synonimia.

Communicology as science isn't about calling a spade a spade, something that you omit to realize when asking for the answer how to convert the particular group.

There are inteligent and ignorant students, but if you are their teacher, you will not despise the second cathegory and call them stupid but you will find your way into teaching them by motivating and inspiring them, instead of being sardonic and offensive.

We go in circles all this time and I'm beginning to wonder what is actually more difficult at this moment, getting your sensibility on this issue or converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology.

George S. 12-09-2010 04:08 AM

if you go to other countries like germany i think or switzerland they won't let you to buy houses or land.You can only lease a house but yo can't buy it.Otherwise people like albanians will take over.What is macedonia doing nothing.The albanians know that they will win gradually.

Mastika 12-09-2010 05:01 AM

Niko, Labunista is still a Macedonian Muslim village. It is incorrect to say that "in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in." The Torbeshi due to their own reasons have been writing themseleves as Albanians, Turks, Bosniaks, Muslims etc. 100 years ago in 1905 it was a mixed Macedonian Christian/Muslim village, this is still the case, however with a ratio much more favourable to the Muslims (c. 95%).

You are right in the message that you are trying to send however. There are a few more 90%+ Albanian villages in Macedonia with around 5,000 inhabitants; Velesta, Aracinovo, Celopek, Studenicani, Dobri Dol, Chegrane, Zajas and Mala Recica. The numbers in all instances are probably exaggerated however, yet it is disturbing to see such a disproportionate increase in numbers.

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 05:17 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;82011]Acknowledging a group and addressing to the group is not a case of synonimia.

Communicology as science isn't about calling a spade a spade, something that you omit to realize when asking for the answer how to convert the particular group.[/QUOTE]Seriously, think about the above two paragraphs. What do you really want to say? In fact, put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them what they think you mean.

[QUOTE=Bratot;82011]There are inteligent and ignorant students, but if you are their teacher, you will not despise the second cathegory and call them stupid but you will find your way into teaching them by motivating and inspiring them, instead of being sardonic and offensive.

We go in circles all this time and I'm beginning to wonder what is actually more difficult at this moment, getting your sensibility on this issue or converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember calling them stupid. Why would I when Protivpropaganda identifies them as the majority? That would be suicide. Why are you putting words in my mouth Bratot?

You finished your paragraph with the key issue of "converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology". Which was my question.

makedonin 12-09-2010 06:25 AM

I wanted to drop a line here about reaching groups and teaching people.
In any activity there are many so called best practices which can be used as guide lines. Here is what the most successful propagator have said about his best practices he employed when he was spreading one of the worlds religions:

[QUOTE] 19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone,[B] to win as many as possible[/B]. 20 To the Jews [B]I became like a Jew, to win the Jews[/B]. To those under the law [B]I became like one under the law[/B] (though I myself am not under the law), [B]so as to win those under the law[/B]. 21 To those not having the law [B]I became like one not having the law[/B] (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), [B]so as to win those not having the law[/B]. 22 To the weak [B]I became weak, to win the weak[/B].

[B][U]I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means[/U] I might save some.[/B] 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%209:19-23&version=NIV"]1 Corinthians 9:19-23[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

Maybe it will give some answers to how someone ought to teach and propagate certain Ideologies!

I don't think anyone can dispute the success of Pauls mission for spreading the new Christian religion!

What is his strategy?

[B]I call it "infiltration from inside"![/B]

protivpropaganda 12-09-2010 07:05 AM

[QUOTE=Frank;81640]Good analysis protivpropaganda[/QUOTE]
Thank you Frank, I appreciate it.
I was beggining to wonder if my english is bad or people just refuse to understand me.



[QUOTE]
Vangelovski,
I never quote Rawls. [/QUOTE]
You may not know it but you do. No biggie, mate. Apsolutely no problem at all. Sometimes I do to but on a different level.

[QUOTE]I think what you call an "individual" and what I call a "citizen" are very similar. When I talk of a citizen I mean a FREE person who has a political relationship with other FREE people. Every person has natural rights AND responsibilities, as citizens of a particular state, they have additional rights and responsibilities. And I agree, the freedom of the individual is paramount.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about freedom (with responsibilities) which means that if a person is free he has all the rights and the cooperation among individuals is a voluntary one for advancing the interests of the individual or the collective (the bigger picture).
You on the other hand talk about additional rights and responsibilities and tighten the scope of the individual by assigning him political relationships which by my meanings is understood without question.
Do read up on the difference between freedom and permission since you obviuosly didn't read the link I provided.

Actually even this is no biggie, mate. Both options are on the table and are equally good if there aren't problems that tend to leviate towards one option which in this case we have such a problem.
The problem that exists in Macedonia tends to lean toward my solution as to make your solution at all possible.

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
I'm an advocate against big government.[/QUOTE]

So am I.[/QUOTE]
Sorry mate but you are an advocate of big government. What you propose is only possible if a big government exists and deals out permissions. This sort of government in order to function properly for the individual (citizen) must be responsible in the presence of strong individuals or else. If strong individuals are a microscopic entity in a society then we have a situation like the one we have in Macedonia.

[QUOTE]Macedonia is neither a republic nor a liberal democracy and yes, the freedom part is vague.[/QUOTE]
You haven't read the Macedonian constitution, have you?

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.[/QUOTE]

I think this applies equally to the Macedonians as well as Albanians, but that is a generalisation.[/QUOTE]
No, this is an analysis with a satirical twist. It isn't a generalisation since it clearly defines a mental state that produces a negative behaviour which is evident in most if not all of the citizens in Macedonia.
Macedonians screw the system in order to attain for themselves illbegotten material gains and that is all, pure greed without looking at the consequences. The shiptars do the same but a certain large number of them do it with an ill intended agenda.

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now. [/QUOTE]
This is the scaremongering I was talking about. The Macedonian government, or rather, the Macedonian people are not powerless to improve the situation, rather, they lack the will to do so for reasons you correctly raise below.[/QUOTE]
Scaremongering you say?
Well... Hmmm... Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines scaremongering as:
[B]- one inclined to raise or excite alarms especially needlessly [/B]
Here is the link:
[url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scaremongering[/url]

Do concentrate on the word "one" that denotes individual action and not an organised activity aimed at a target society to instill apathy in a psyops conflict.
If you had read the link I provided then you wouldn't insist on using the term. Let's not have anymore of that please.
BTW, this isn't scaremongering but information since I do give a correct form of action to counter the effects.

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you. [/QUOTE]
You make too many assumptions about the people you're debating with.[/QUOTE]
Allow me to state again an undisputable fact that my vast education gives me the ability to read psychological profiles of people from what they say, how they say it, how they react to provocation or just write what they feel is important.
Also I didn't make an assumption of anything but offered you my help if you need it... You know... As a friend and a compatriot.
If you refuse my offer all you have to do is say so.

Bratot 12-09-2010 07:06 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;82020]Seriously, think about the above two paragraphs. What do you really want to say? In fact, put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them what they think you mean. [/QUOTE]

Since you intentionally twisted our real objections with saying:
[QUOTE]Risto said:
Some on this forum [U]find it very difficult to accept the existence [/U]of slaves/serfs in Macedonia[/QUOTE]

There wasn't problem to accept that such group exist, the problem was how you chosed to address them.

[QUOTE]I don't remember calling them stupid. Why would I when Protivpropaganda identifies them as the majority? That would be suicide. Why are you putting words in my mouth Bratot?[/QUOTE]

It's called analogy ( [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy"]read more [/URL]) and why don't you put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them if they really buy your 'naivete'.


[QUOTE]You finished your paragraph with the key issue of "converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology". Which was my question.[/QUOTE]

Why bothering to ask if you don't accept the critique and advice?

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 07:47 AM

PP,

I think you have reverted back to your "intellectualism" which is beginning to fail you miserably. You were doing much better when you stopped trying to prove yourself.

1. Don't pretend to understand Rawls. Besides, my views have been formed with reference to much more relevant and intellectually superior minds than Rawls.

2. Your understanding of an individual versus a citizen is fundamentally flawed. An individual [B][I]does not necessarily have a political relationship[/I][/B] with other individuals. As an Australian, I do not have a [B][I]political relationship [/I][/B]with an American. As individuals, we can cooperate on political issues and we both have inalienable natural rights and corresponding responsibilities, however, we are citizens of two very different [B][I]political communities [/I][/B]and if I were to go to the United States, [I][B]I would not enjoy the same rights or be obligated to accept the same responsibilities[/B][/I] as an American. This is important, because [I][B]there are certain rights and responsibilities that individuals do not have vis-a-vis each other, whereas citizens do[/B][/I]. However, In other words, an Individual is not necessarily a citizen, but a citizen (should be)/is an individual. I'm beginning to think that you do not consider the political community (and therefore the state with its institutions and representative government) as necessary.

3. Your vague, but unsubstantiated assumption that I advocate "big government" is quite telling. Perhaps you have a vastly different opinion of what a "big government" is? This is a subjective issue and there are no right or wrong answers. Perhaps as an "individualist" (anarchist?) you view any government as big government?

4. I'm quite familiar with the Macedonian constitution. Are you familiar with what a republic is? Are you familiar with liberal democracy? Can you see the difference between [B]claiming [/B]to be a republic and a liberal democracy and actually living up to that claim?

5. Webster's dictionary is not an authority on political concepts. Being the self-declared "intellectual" that you are, shouldn't you know that certain terms have different meanings in different fields of study? Do you know that political dictionaries exist and contain definitions of terms used in political science? Do you know that hundreds of scholars in the field of political science have debated the concept of 'scaremongering' and not one of them would agree with YOUR definition?

6. Your "vast education" is not an "undisputable fact", and is yet to be demonstrated. You are, however, begining to sound like a self-inflated "Prof. D-r" from the University of SS. Kiril and Metodi...or is it FON?

7. You are still making unsubstantiated assumptions about those with whom you are debating.

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 08:10 AM

[quote=Bratot;82031]It's called analogy ( [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy"]read more [/URL]) and why don't you put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them if they really buy your 'naivete'.[/quote]

Bratot,

Are you saying that when someone calls you a name its an insult and when your friend "Prof. D-r" does it, its an analogy?

protivpropaganda 12-09-2010 09:09 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;81987]You have defined 2 groups: Strong defiant types AND slave/serf non-defiant types. You have associated the strong/defiant types with those who are committed to upholding the rule of the law. The Ohrid Agreement is the rule of the law. I fail to see the correlation of being strong/defiant whilst being compliant in this regard. Notwithstanding this, I agree there are 2 types and there are far less strong/defiant types than slave/serf types. Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia. [/QUOTE]
This is the second time that you have misquoted me. The first is:
I wrote:
[I]it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual.[/I]

You quoted:
[QUOTE][QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys [/QUOTE]
From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.[/QUOTE]
Without the second part the sentence loses its intended meaning. Since I meant that there exist a will or the lack of it and it can be manipulated in one way or the other.

The second time is the same. Only partial quotes which change the meaning.
I did not say that Macedonians were slaves or serfs rather I stated that a slave mentality and a serf behaviour exist. Most Macedonians behave and think of themselves as such or to say it more precisely they are led to think in such a way. Macedonians aren't slaves nor are they serf at the moment per se but the majority does have such a world view and do behave accordingly to it. I should also mention the saying:
[B]A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.[/B]
This statement give a very clear picture of why current propaganda reinforces such attitudes and behaviours in Macedonia.

As for the witty rule of law comment I thank you for showing the error in my writing. Strong individuals will uphold the rule of law and will change any law that is inherently against their interests.
There, much better, isn't it?

[QUOTE]Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. We wish to know how we can convert this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. Your thoughts are most welcome.[/QUOTE]
I came here as a well intentioned Macedonian patriot with experience to discuss Macedonian matters with other patriots and maybe, just maybe, find ways to counter the psyops which our nation is under in an organised fashion. I have written about one of the end results but haven't mentioned the means by which it should be achevied. It is highly noticable if one read my posts carefully and with an open mind.
I haven't written that many posts and if you had read them then you would have noticed that I didn't start anything, I didn't provoce anybody nor did I offend anybody but was provoced and was offended.

[QUOTE]I think what you are really saying is "if we are gonna have a pissing contest, I will win". But that is fine, we want to learn from all Macedonians.[/QUOTE]
You took away from me the right to rant that I will inevitably win and this isn't very Macedonian of you, but I like it. :lol::clown:
What I was actually saying was that I live in Macedonia. I experience first hand what you all read in the newspapers. I also do analysis of the things going on and have been doing them since the late 1980s.
Also, as evidence that I wasn't going for the kill was that I offered help with information if one needed it.
I didn't come here as an enemy but was percieved as one through no fault of my own. As soon as the pissing contests are over I will go about doing what I came to do and that is to contemplate solutions and learn a little more about my diaspora, its likes, dislikes and hopes for the sole reason as to implement them into the strategies of the future counter psyops to be held which will be beneficial to our interests.

Bratot 12-09-2010 09:16 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82040]Bratot,

Are you saying that when someone calls you a name its an insult and when your friend "Prof. D-r" does it, its an analogy?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say, so why don't you explain your point in Macedonian?

Niko777 12-09-2010 09:18 AM

[QUOTE]Niko, Labunista is still a Macedonian Muslim village. It is incorrect to say that "in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in." The Torbeshi due to their own reasons have been writing themseleves as Albanians, Turks, Bosniaks, Muslims etc. 100 years ago in 1905 it was a mixed Macedonian Christian/Muslim village, this is still the case, however with a ratio much more favourable to the Muslims (c. 95%).[/QUOTE]

I know there is a presence of Macedonian Muslims with different identities, however we need to admit there is a presence of Albanians in this village, and [U]like most other villages in the Struga region, they did come in the last decades buying land in non-Albanian villages. [/U] Albanian nationalism is on the rise in Labunistsa, and the Albanian language is being spoken, so that is why I doubt that they are all Torbeshi.

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 09:33 AM

[quote=Bratot;82046]I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say, so why don't you explain your point in Macedonian?[/quote]

Bratot,

You're English has improved markedly in this post. I'll try my best in Macedonian.

Прашањето ми беше: со Вашиот одговор на Ристо, дали сакавте да кажите дека нарекување имиња е навреда кога тоа е насочено кон Вас, но истото е аналогија кога е направен од страна на вашиот пријател "Проф. д-р" Противпропаганда?

Bratot 12-09-2010 09:42 AM

[quote=vangelovski;82049]bratot,

you're english has improved markedly in this post. I'll try my best in macedonian.

Прашањето ми беше: со Вашиот одговор на Ристо, дали сакавте да кажите дека нарекување имиња е навреда кога тоа е насочено кон Вас, но истото е аналогија кога е направен од страна на вашиот пријател "Проф. д-р" Противпропаганда?[/quote]

Мојот пријател, кој за волја на вистината навистина е д-р, ти го даде одговорот во неговата реплика до Ристо.

Затоа би Ве замолил г-дине Вангеловски да се воздржите од понатамошни игри на зборови и инфантилни обиди за релативизирање на Вашиот навредувачки и понижувачки однос.

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=Bratot;82031]There wasn't problem to accept that such group exist, the problem was how you chosed to address them.[/QUOTE]Are the slave/serf mentality types the majority in Macedonia or not? This is protivpropaganda's assertion. Let us be sure about how you see this first.

I am far from naive, in fact I am quite sure my frustration with the lack of will in Macedonia for change in Macedonia is abundantly clear. What protivpropaganda has said merely confirms my belief that little hope exists with people committed to a servitude mentality. Especially whilst they whine about their plight.

[QUOTE=Bratot;82031]Why bothering to ask if you don't accept the critique and advice?[/QUOTE]
The advice is to not call them names. I get it. But when you rope in protivpropaganda to come here, he can call the majority of Macedonians slave/serf mentalities without any consequence?

To be honest, I am much more disgusted with the name calling and hatred of ethnic Albanians. They are people who deserve to live free lives as well. If the Macedonians have no desire to live free lives, then logic dictates what happens next. If the slave/serf mentality is as prevalent as protivpropaganda suggests, there would be no chance. But I think there is still hope.

Bratot 12-09-2010 04:15 PM

Before we continue I think it's better if you read his [URL="http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837&page=10"]reply one page back[/URL], because you aren't able to see the difference yet or deliberately you're tryng to mix apples and oranges to cover up your failing.

I have a good reason to believe it's the second one.

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 04:47 PM

Bratot, I will certainly continue my discussions with protivpropaganda. It looks like it will be interesting, but I fear our thought processes are not too different and we will soon have little to discuss. However, it is better if you tell me whether you believe the slave/serf mentality types are the majority in Macedonia or not. Once we clarify this point, you and I can continue this discussion in a logical fashion.

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 05:39 PM

Actually, let me clarify. Having re-read some of protivpropaganda's earlier posts on this thread, I cannot say we are terribly in agreement on a number of issues.

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 05:58 PM

[quote=bratot;82052]Мојот пријател, кој за волја на вистината навистина е д-р, ти го даде одговорот во неговата реплика до Ристо.

Затоа би Ве замолил г-дине Вангеловски да се воздржите од понатамошни игри на зборови и инфантилни обиди за релативизирање на Вашиот навредувачки и понижувачки однос.[/quote]

Братот,

Јас Ви поставив прашање околу Вашиот коментар, а не мислењето на "Професорот".

Верувам дека "Проф. Д-р" Противпропаганда навистина е "Д-р" (во Македонски кругови), бидејќи го познавам "стандардот" на неговото образование. Неговиот обид да не убеди дека е накаков "експерт" е тактика карактеристична од Македонските кадри кога нема да успеат да го докажет она со нивните мисли и аргументи.

Bratot 12-09-2010 06:20 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;82090]Bratot, I will certainly continue my discussions with protivpropaganda. It looks like it will be interesting, but I fear our thought processes are not too different and we will soon have little to discuss. However, it is better if you tell me whether you believe the slave/serf mentality types are the majority in Macedonia or not. Once we clarify this point, you and I can continue this discussion in a logical fashion.[/QUOTE]

I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 06:24 PM

[quote=Bratot;82114]I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.[/quote]

Bratot,

Seeing as you now acknowledge the existence of a slave mentality, how would you describe this concept?

Risto the Great 12-09-2010 06:36 PM

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82045]This is the second time that you have misquoted me. The first is:
I wrote:
[I]it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, [B]if he wishes to remain an individual.[/B][/I]

You quoted:
[QUOTE=Risto the Great]From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.[/QUOTE]
Without the second part the sentence loses its intended meaning. Since I meant that there exist a will or the lack of it and it can be manipulated in one way or the other.[/QUOTE]

If he no longer is an individual, he is no longer free. I can't read anything more into your statement and still think I agree with you on this.

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82045]The second time is the same. Only partial quotes which change the meaning.
I did not say that Macedonians were slaves or serfs rather I stated that a slave mentality and a serf behaviour exist. Most Macedonians behave and think of themselves as such or to say it more precisely they are led to think in such a way. Macedonians aren't slaves nor are they serf at the moment per se but the majority does have such a world view and do behave accordingly to it. I should also mention the saying:
[B]A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.[/B]
This statement give a very clear picture of why current propaganda reinforces such attitudes and behaviours in Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
If they were slaves or serfs, they would probably have rings through their noses and be led around on chains. If you look at almost all of my posts on this issue I describe a kind of mentality. This mentality is the majority in Macedonia according to you. And I fully agree with you on the following statement:
[B]A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.[/B]
I think a little more anger might be a good thing for the "individuals" of Macedonia.


[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82045]As for the witty rule of law comment I thank you for showing the error in my writing. Strong individuals will uphold the rule of law and will change any law that is inherently against their interests.
There, much better, isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Infinitely better.


[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82045]I came here as a well intentioned Macedonian patriot with experience to discuss Macedonian matters with other patriots and maybe, just maybe, find ways to counter the psyops which our nation is under in an organised fashion. I have written about one of the end results but haven't mentioned the means by which it should be achevied. It is highly noticable if one read my posts carefully and with an open mind.
I haven't written that many posts and if you had read them then you would have noticed that I didn't start anything, I didn't provoce anybody nor did I offend anybody but was provoced and was offended. [/QUOTE]I will be honest and say I missed some of your earlier posts. You certainly took on a different persona when challenged though. One of your earlier posts touched on the means of achieving a solution which included the following:
[QUOTE]
First we create support for ourselves as a democratic country and stabilise our economy then we can put them in their rightfull place. Even though there are numerous problems things are begining to move in the right direction. Today most of the psychological operations (propaganda) in Macedonia is aimed at stopping these processes.
This is very complex and it can't be thoroughly explained in one post but I think that one can get a general picture as what is needed to be done.[/QUOTE]
Stabilising the economy makes sense. But Macedonia recently took out an IMF loan which is absolutely the antithesis of progress in this regard in my opinion. You have outlined a government (and opposition) and bureaucracy that still remains committed to psychological endeavours aimed at diminishing the individual's will to demand rights as humans much less Macedonians. Everyone seems to be willing to blame everyone except themselves. I have been to Macedonia a fair few times in the last few years and think I am well aware of the apathy, resentment and "individuality" there.


[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82045]You took away from me the right to rant that I will inevitably win and this isn't very Macedonian of you, but I like it. :lol::clown:
What I was actually saying was that I live in Macedonia. I experience first hand what you all read in the newspapers. I also do analysis of the things going on and have been doing them since the late 1980s.
Also, as evidence that I wasn't going for the kill was that I offered help with information if one needed it.
I didn't come here as an enemy but was percieved as one through no fault of my own. As soon as the pissing contests are over I will go about doing what I came to do and that is to contemplate solutions and learn a little more about my diaspora, its likes, dislikes and hopes for the sole reason as to implement them into the strategies of the future counter psyops to be held which will be beneficial to our interests.[/QUOTE]
I must be Macedonian, I won't let you win easily. In fact I want to remind you that Macedonians in the Diaspora have fought longer and harder to be Macedonians than Macedonians in Macedonia. I am happy to discuss this later when our bladders are full(er).

How will we change the minds of the individuals in Macedonia protivpropaganda? What will it take to make them aware of the sinister machinations that exist in the tiers of Government, the bureaucracy, the army, the education system, the police, the health system and lastly (in order of priority) the ethnic Albanians?

Bratot 12-09-2010 06:39 PM

[quote=vangelovski;82106]Братот,

Јас Ви поставив прашање околу Вашиот коментар, а не мислењето на "Професорот".

Верувам дека "Проф. Д-р" Противпропаганда навистина е "Д-р" (во Македонски кругови), бидејќи го познавам "стандардот" на неговото образование. Неговиот обид да не убеди дека е накаков "експерт" е тактика карактеристична од Македонските кадри кога нема да успеат да го докажет она со нивните мисли и аргументи.[/quote]

Ти постави [b]непостоечка аналогија[/b], соодветно на тоа ти одговорив да го погледнеш уште еднаш мислењето на Противпропаганда пред да продолжиш со имагинарни тези.

Наместо тоа, ти повторно се впушташ во ниски дискфалификации што додуше повеќе збори за твојот карактер и твојата потреба за деградирање на луѓето со кои не можеш да се носиш.

Тоа е типична методологија на Службите која гледам е карактеристична и преку Океанот, дефокусирање на поентата со ад-хоминем аргументи.

julie 12-09-2010 06:41 PM

How do we achieve "enlightenment" on the Macedonians with the slave mentality.
being educators and using internet is a only very small part of this.
To effect a shift in social consciousness, there needs to be an awakening for enlightenment to occur.
The awakening will not occur by being derogatory, I agree with that , it is in effect reverse psychology whereby the "victim" will seize an opportunity to discredit the person that is trying to assist the cause.
It becomes a negative process whereby the "victim" starts the rants of further self torture by accusing the person trying to help them out of their situation by labelling. A prime example of what i am trying to say here is, the diaspora, is trying to achieve a shift in the mental consciousness of the individual in a society that has only known servitude, and the majority, blame the diaspora for "spitting" at them.

Bratot, what other forum members are discouraged with is this. Hence the impatience.

I understand what you are getting at, but for their to be a change effected, must happen sooner rather than later. The diaspora is discouraged, as the writing is on the wall, and time is of the utmost essence here.
How do we empower RoM, without constantly being belittled in the diaspora. We are all here for the same reason, it wears thin, and is very draining to be constantly attacked by the very people we are trying to help
We need action. Not inaction. Waiting for a shift in the individual in a society which has only known servitude is going to be a very long wait

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 11:22 PM

[quote=Bratot;82120]Ти постави [B]непостоечка аналогија[/B], соодветно на тоа ти одговорив да го погледнеш уште еднаш мислењето на Противпропаганда пред да продолжиш со имагинарни тези.

Наместо тоа, ти повторно се впушташ во ниски дискфалификации што додуше повеќе збори за твојот карактер и твојата потреба за деградирање на луѓето со кои не можеш да се носиш.

Тоа е типична методологија на Службите која гледам е карактеристична и преку Океанот, дефокусирање на поентата со ад-хоминем аргументи.[/quote]

Bratot,


Now you're just confusing yourself.

"Prof. D-r" Protivpropaganda stated (correctly) that there are Macedonians with a slave mentality. RtG merely re-stated that PP identified the majority of Macedonians as having a slave mentality. YOU directly responded to this by claiming it was an “analogy”. So my question again: Is it only an “analogy” (i.e., correctly identifying the slave mentality) when your friend does it? Is it an insult when someone else correctly identifies YOU as suffering from the slave mentality?

As for diverting attention from the substance of the arguments, that is exactly what YOU have been doing this entire time with your childish complaints about name calling.

Vangelovski 12-09-2010 11:23 PM

[quote=Bratot;82114]I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.[/quote]

Bratot,

Seeing as you now acknowledge the existence of a slave mentality, how would you describe this concept?

Mastika 12-10-2010 01:27 AM

[QUOTE=Niko777;82047]I know there is a presence of Macedonian Muslims with different identities, however we need to admit there is a presence of Albanians in this village, and [U]like most other villages in the Struga region, they did come in the last decades buying land in non-Albanian villages. [/U] Albanian nationalism is on the rise in Labunistsa, and the Albanian language is being spoken, so that is why I doubt that they are all Torbeshi.[/QUOTE]

True, however, compared to other regions in Macedonia such as Polog and the Kicevo region, the amount of Albanians buying former Macedonian land has been limited. The only village in the Struga region which was formerly Macedonian and now Albanian, and that change occured over 60 years ago.

I would say in Labunista a seperate "Torbesh" identity is on the rise if anything, ie. an ethnic identity which is different from Macedonian. Ramiz Merko did try to set up Albanian language classes from Grades 1-3 Labunist, claiming that there were "4,300 Albanians" who were not learning Albanian, however, to the best of my knowledge, the villagers staunchly rejected this idea.

Bratot 12-10-2010 03:33 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;82170]Bratot,


Now you're just confusing yourself.

"Prof. D-r" Protivpropaganda stated (correctly) that there are Macedonians with a slave mentality. RtG merely re-stated that PP identified the majority of Macedonians as having a slave mentality. YOU directly responded to this by claiming it was an “analogy”. So my question again: [B]Is it only an “analogy” (i.e., correctly identifying the slave mentality)[/B] when your friend does it? [U]Is it an insult when someone else correctly identifies YOU as suffering from the slave mentality?[/U]

As for diverting attention from the substance of the arguments, that is exactly what YOU have been doing this entire time with your childish complaints about name calling.[/QUOTE]


This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.

And that's where my analogy fit for, so don't act like Mother Theresa on this thread and don't play the dumb because I'm sure you understand for what reason I made my objections.

Now you are trying to argue that PP has done the same labelling and to relativize my objection.
It could work for you if that was really the case, but you are insinuating again and trying to pul out a shit back from the toilet.


Do you think you could sell a product line for excessively fat population in America by addressing to them in the commercial:

[B]"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"[/B]

Would this approach promote something healthier for your target group or they will just focus on your of offensive terminology?

Vangelovski 12-10-2010 03:50 AM

[quote=Bratot;82208]This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.

And that's where my analogy fit for, so don't act like Mother Theresa on this thread and don't play the dumb because I'm sure you understand for what reason I made my objections.

Now you are trying to argue that PP has done the same labelling and to relativize my objection.
It could work for you if that was really the case, but you are insinuating again and trying to pul out a shit back from the toilet.


Do you think you could sell a product line for excessively fat population in America by addressing to them in the commercial:

[B]"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"[/B]

Would this approach promote something healthier for your target group or they will just focus on your of offensive terminology?[/quote]

Bratot,

I'm not going to quote where PP identified the slave mentality because anyone with half a peanut in there head has already read it in THIS thread.

In fact, just put PP back on, he was making much more sense.

indigen 12-10-2010 03:50 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;82208]This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.
[/QUOTE]

You and your new reinforcement have polluted a perfectly good and required (information) thread with off-topic discussion and maybe the MTO Admin could get it cleaned up and move the off-topic stuff to an appropriately labelled topic in order to leave the original to serve the purpose Niko intended it to do. This is not the first time this has occurred under your diversionary tactics, Bratot.


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