arq88 you are creating a country within a country i know for a fact that the albanians in albania would not want you as they got rid of you after world war ii so you became a problem for macedonia just as you did in kosovo & serbia..It's not a matter for percentages you don't respect us why should we respect you.Why should we be made to abide by some stupid one sided framework agreement.??
I you want to speak your language go to albania & speak it like atrue shiptar.Not in a foreign land of which you have no connection.

Pro mkd how am i wrong.It was in the papers that albanians at the aiport told an old macedonian woman(Grandmother) i think over 90 years old. she would need to learn albanian as they speak only albanian at the aiport.She said to them she only speaks macedonian & is too old to learn albanian.If this sort of thing is not serious enough promkd get a life you might realise that
the albanians are screwing us at the airport & you are unwittingly supporting them.Pro mk wake up.That is clearly one incident of many,many tourists from australia have been told they should learn albanian at the e skopje airport.If that is not insulting i don't know what is.??

arqe88

[QUOTE]unless you brave Macedonians want to start a war and get rid of the albanians, lol. Never going to happen though[/QUOTE]

You are very brave over a keyboard! Macedonians don't need to start a war to get rid of gjupci like you! And what makes you think we haven't already anticipated your "Greater Albania" plan? You underestimate the Macedonians, we have endured and survived many wars, many conquerors, many subversants....and we're still around...keep deluding yourself about you Albanianness........don't forget to look over your shoulder for a Macedonian with no tolerance for fools like you. :nuke:

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;119856]Any language aside from Macedonian and English should be prohibited at Macedonian airports. If you want to listen to Albanian when you get off the plane, then land in Tirana.[/QUOTE]

I'm not picking on you SoM, in fact I FULLY agree with you, it's just your post is a perfect example of the sort of point I'm trying to make.

[B][COLOR="Navy"]It's All a Matter of Perspective[/COLOR][/B]

Throughout this thread we can come across examples of Albanian 'advancement' in various fields which many have commented "this should not be allowed to happen, it doesn't happen in other countries" and "the government is so piss-weak to not stand up to such provocations/or allow such actions" or words to this effect. Are our words valid or invalid, or is validity a matter of perspective?

If you assume that the Republic of Macedonia is a sovereign state (ie an intact state) and the "home of the Macedonians" with some minorities in it then our statements seem very valid.

Even if we take a slightly different view and make a distinction between Republic of Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians - kind of like Fred Smith the person, and Fred Smith Pty Ltd the company, being two separate identities despite having almost the same name our statements still seem valid based on the fact that since Fred Smith the person owns 75% of the shares the two are virtually the same and what Fred Smith the person says is in effect what Fred Smith Pty Ltd says and thus has to happen.

Judging by the posts in this thread I think most people on the MTO, and probably most Macedonians world wide, see things from the perspective of the two above examples and hence the dismay at some of the events that have happened. Some events are so contrary to the two above views that one could easily say are not just wrong but down right criminal and yet they happen without any challenge by the government giving everyone the appearance that those 'criminal' actions seem to have the government's blessing. The facts on the ground do not fit our perspective. Why could this be the case? Are the facts wrong or could it be our perspective is wrong because we are not told all the facts?

Let's just look at some examples to illustrate this dilemma.

Monuments are erected to the fallen Albanian fighters in the 2001 conflict while monuments to the Macedonian fighters are repeatedly desecrated without anyone being punished.

A school is to be renamed after an Albanian (not ethnic Albanian Macedonian) Prime Minister, while another is renamed after a fallen ethnic Albanian fighter of the 2001 conflict.

Council are consolidated and boundaries are redrawn such that previously majority ethnic Macedonian areas are merged with predominantly ethnic Albanian areas resulting in a near 50% split or ethnic Macedonians becoming the minority.

33% of government workers are ethnic Albanian. Even if we accept the strongly disputed '25%' it still means a hugely disproportionate amount in the ethnic Albanian's favour without any apparent justification or explanation.

The usage of the Albanian language in all signage including government departments and websites, official document (eg ID card, driver's licence and even passport) and the requirement that in majority ethnic Albanian areas any language (ie Macedonian or Albanian) may be used. An example of which were council forms being printed only in Albanian in one area making it difficult non-Albanian speaking people to fill them out.

These are some facts. How do we reconcile these facts with our two perspectives from above? Most people posting have said these thing are just wrong/illegal and because of a piss-weak government they have happened not because they are allowed to happen but because the government have not bothered/too scared to challenge them. Is this the correct view to explain the examples above (and more) or is our perspective wrong? This line of thinking is what lead me to write Post1498 [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837&page=150[/url] "Has Macedonia already been sold?"

If we consider a different perspective for a moment as being right we find that ALL of the above facts fit, leading me to the conclusion that this different perspective is more than likely correct - Macedonia (or at least a good part of it) has already been 'sold' and the people have not been told for probably 10 years so as to avoid spontaneous/organised outrage and (armed?) conflict post 2001 while the effective structures for an eventual handover have been incrementally introduce and built up to 'acclimatise' the people (especially the ethnic Macedonians) to the new situation so as not to be a 'shock' to them and a recoiled backlash to happen. After reading the comment left by the (ethnic Albanian?) person in Niko777's Post1555 I am that much more convinced that this is the true reality and only not told to the Macedonian public.

I don't (know) necessarily see a 'Greater Albania' (a possibility at a further stage solely dependent on the Albanians (I mean in Albania) choosing or not to accept the Macedonian Albanians) but at least a federation of two half of a Republic of Macedonia (if the name remains) running mostly independent while sharing equally common big resources like the Skopje airport and other infrastructure.

If this view is correct then only a massive revolt will reverse the slide or we will keep bitching one inch at a time (wasting our time) until it's all completed and then we can be left with only our self-righteous indignation.

Who is there to challenge the government and engage them to demand explanations and actions to remedy the situation. The media are only meekly tacitly reporting 'someone pissed in the corner on the carpet' without calling for/demanding explanations from any relevant minister let alone following up on their demands for explanations/remedies eg the insane relative of an ethnic Albanian minister being allowed to enter the Macedonian Army at the behest of the Minister of Defence (an ethnic Albanian) despite firstly not being eligible on the age criteria but also FAILING the PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS 3!!!!! TIMES. Do you think we will ever hear of this again? - probably not until he shoots somebody because he had an argument with them - the psychologist board call him a "ticking time-bomb". Not even the "Milenko Show" is following up on anything even though he likes to present himself as some kind of 'champion of rights' reporter going to the EU at the conference of "Media in Macedonia" to protest. It makes his antics about the 'name issue' a joke when half the country will be lost. No NGO or any political party is showing any interest in any issues with the ethnic Albanians because I suspect they are all in the know and treacherously keeping the public blind. It very much looks like the 'old Macedonian curse' - traitors in the ranks have sold Macedonia and the Macedonian people once again let alone any hope of getting the "Sun Flag" back as many MTO members and others are calling for.

[QUOTE]only if the population was under 15%. Macedonian government is now preparing for power handover, unless you brave Macedonians want to start a war and get rid of the albanians, lol. Never going to happen though[/QUOTE]

For the love of God it is as if what the Macedonians demand and expect is not resonable and in perfectly in the frame of International norms we need more of this crap either Albanians will show they respect the State they live in and understand they have obligations to it not just to make demands.

On Kosovo and the Albanian Dispora it will take time they will get it they cant expect to threaten our State and think they can walk on water

these albanians that think that war is the answer to everything don't worry a civil war will wipe you out that is when the common macedonian man has had enough of your bs & takes up arms.You're so bad even the albanians from albania threw you out in 2nd world war.Don't wory just be happy of where you are the more you push it the sooner the civil war will come.You have never seen an ordinarry macedonian fight it's blood & guts routine.It will make rambo lok like a wimp.It will be 1 person fighting 10,10 fighting 100,and so on.It will be too late to apoligise then it will be outright decimation.

[QUOTE=arqe88;119858]only if the population was under 15%. Macedonian government is now preparing for power handover, unless you brave Macedonians want to start a war and get rid of the albanians, lol. Never going to happen though[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Americans secured what you have now (just like in Kosovo), it certainly wasn't achieved by peanuts with a peasant mentality like yourself. You can kid yourself all you like, but if it wasn't for western intervention you would be nowhere. Don't ever forget that. In any case, I would much rather this issue be sorted out with logic, reason, and fair play. You know, like when you're in Albania the official language is Albanian, when you're in Macedonia the official language is Macedonian, etc. I don't wish for war and suffering in Macedonia, but if it boiled down to another 'conflict', I would support all those who support Macedonia as a [B]Macedonian[/B] state, irrespective of their ethnicity - even if they were ethnic Albanians.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;119871]Actually, the Americans secured what you have now (just like in Kosovo), it certainly wasn't achieved by peanuts with a peasant mentality like yourself. You can kid yourself all you like, but if it wasn't for western intervention you would be nowehere. Don't ever forget that.[/QUOTE]

This is a particularly valid point that is lost on the shiptar population in general.
Geo-politics seldom sits motionless, rather it's a fluid, dynamic and malleable beast that can embrace former foe or turn against yesterdays ally.

The West has clearly used both the shiptar and Macedonian sides to achieve a defined political agenda.

Just as the West strangled aid to Macedonia (and serbia) while supporting the shiptar movement(s) in Macedonia (and kosovo), the West can quickly turn the status quo on it's head in a heartbeat.

The Achilles heal for the shiptari (mainly in kosovo and Macedonia) is their Islamic faith and the entire Western world will always view them with suspicion and mistrust.

The alignment of the stars that benefitted the shiptar agenda in Macedonia in 2001 may never materialise again.

Macedonian politicians must ensure that what the shiptari failed to gain with acts of terrorism in 2001 aren't handed to them on a silver platter.

[QUOTE=ProMKD;119819]Anyways, zrinski, you will notice that most of what you see in Skopje and Macedonia is not nearly as 'serious' as what you read in this topic. What is discussed here is in-depth, and what you see as a tourist is almost certainly not going to agree with what you read here. [/QUOTE]
Sorry. Macedonia is being run by the ethnic Albanian majority. Macedonians are no longer in control of their own State. If you are not prepared to admit this, you should read the framework agreement. Stop kidding yourself, you had more say about your destiny when you were part of yugoslavia ... and that was shithouse.

Although its obvious that the United States intervened in the 2001 conflict by arming and training at least certain elements of the NLA and threatening the Macedonian Government, while also extending financial rewards for it to disengage from the conflict, Macedonian responsibility for the outcomes of 2001 should not be overlooked.

There was no will among the vast majority of Macedonians to fight a war, even in self-defence. Nor has there been since "independence". Anyone who thinks that there is, should look no further than the Interim Accord. The vast majority of the Macedonian people are so timid, that they are afraid to take a minuscule risk (which would not even involved armed conflict) in exchange for historical gains.

The point is, the Macedonians lost that war before it even began and American intervention was not really necessary for the Albanians to formalise what they had already achieved on the ground. Anyone that has done their homework will know that the key provisions of the Framework Agreement had already been agreed to between Gligorov and the then Albanian political leaders as early as 1993. It was DPMNE that temporarily delayed the adoption of that draft constitution. Once the Albanians got tired of waiting for the 1993 draft constitution to be adopted, they launched the 2001 war to make their point.

The war itself was nothing more than a demonstration by the Albanians of their determination to take what they wanted and ended any self-delusion among Macedonians who 'talked the talk' but melted away at the first signs of trouble. I can think of few other nations who have done the same throughout history.

In the final analysis, it should not be any great shock to any of us. Macedonians never really wanted their independence. They fell out of Yugoslavia and reluctantly voted in favour of independence because Gligorov phrased the referendum question to allow for union in a future Yugoslav federation. Two years later, Macedonia lost its independence when it delegated some of its sovereign powers over to Greece.