Epirot is good at cenying & running away from the truth despite what he says about albanian respect for us macedonians.It has really diminished completely or there never was any in the first place." On an individual level, this would equate to one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes."This is totally true macedonia has given the albanians far more freedom & priveleges than they desrve.They have been spoiled rotten.Our so called politicians are to blame for giving yhem far too many priveleges that they forgot about their fellow citizens.What about a homeland for the macedonians or is that too much to ask.What happened to the notion Macedonia for the macedonians as stated by william gladstone in the Britsh Parliament more than 100 years ago.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133606]Epirot,

No one has any problems with civil equality, but that is not what is happening in Macedonia. Under the Framework Agreement, Albanians have been provided with special privileges, not rights. For example, under the Framework Agreement's Badinter principle (which is now a constitutional provision), Albanian parliamentarians are able to veto parliamentary decisions. .[/QUOTE]

That's your perception! Under the Framework Agreement, Albanians earned some more rights (which previously have been denied) in conform with civil equality. Had the Albanians been privileged from that Agreement, they would already have their own parliament, security forces, budget, etc like the Serbs have in B & H. You keep complaining about that Framework, but you seem to forget that due to it was provided Macedonia's sovereignty. I firmly stand to my previous statement that no decision (of national interest) has been blocked by the Albanian veto.

[QUOTE]This is not civil equality. This is a racist ideology of Albanian superiority and a claim to the Macedonian state.[/QUOTE]

That has nothing to do with a racist ideology nor superiority. The problem stand that a certain Macedonians oppose the very fact that Macedonia should be perceived as a national-state of all ethnicities living there. Even the Constitution of 1971 did not postulate Macedonia as national-state of Macedonia, but of all its constituent ethnicitities (like Albanians, Turks, etc). The constitution of 1991 (which affirmed Macedonia as a national-state of Macedonia by excluding others) was condemned with failure because it went against the nature of Macedonia (being a multi-ethnic country).

Albanians do not exceed their rights provided by the constitution of 2001. Macedonian parliament is still dominated by the Macedonians (of 120 seats, Albanians have 29 that is 34%). Macedonian government is still prevalently Macedonian. The same goes even for army and police forces.

P.S: This is my answer even to Risto...

Epirot your albanian side has said if the slavo macedonian govt albanians refer to macedonians as slavodoesn't make a swift decision to join nato & eu.Then the albanians will make it for themThat was athreat on national television.The albanian s are for the name change regardless & have let it be known they are acting for their own interest rather than the slavo macedonian one.
So can you show me where albanians are supporting macedonians.Also after the 2001 war the albanians have thretened macedonians that they would be back at the slightest provocation.Do you think they are going to sit back & wait all this time for macedonia to be accepted into nato or eu.The albanians only care for themselves & only need to support for the sake ofitself interest.
You mentioned other rights of interst might be your own budgetary, your own military etc what other rights could you possibly want that you don't have.I rember there was one of asking for your own passports.So epirote you don't beleive the macedonians should have a homeland called macedonia & you will stand in it's way.Also as alabanians do you think your behaviour & actions are exemplarrary of a minority.

[QUOTE=Epirot;133590]The credibility of the article is questionable since it has been written by a Serbian propagandist, Carl Savich.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, isn't it interesting how you question the credibility of articles showing the crimes committed by the Albanian SS Skenderbergs, yet at the same time you have used invalid articles to claim that the Aegean Macedonians followed the Nazi ideology. Hypocrisy at its best.

You may have your own opinion of Carl Savich, but any Albanian who doesn't admit that the Albanian SS Skanderberg Division followed the Nazi Ideology in order to create a Greater Albania at any cost falls in the Albanian propagandist league to me.

Your own KLA has stated that the Kosovar people were liberated by the Germans and all Albanian territories such as Kosovo, western Macedonia and border regions under Montenegro, were re-united into "Albania proper". Now we all know that the Nazis wouldn't have done that unless they received something in return which is where the SS Skanderber came into the picture.

I'll use your method and say that I have read many articles (and seen many Youtube videos) that the fascist Albanians admired the Nazis for putting the Map of Greater Albania in front of them. During the war, the Albanian president demanded from the Kosovo SS Skenderbergs to kill the Serbs and together with the help of the Italian army to send the rest to concentration camps in Albania. The Skenderbers started the killings of innocent civillians but the Italians weren't happy with that and at times had to shoot against the Albanians to stop them from further massacres.

At the same time you had the Albanians fascists worshiping Mussolini in Albania with the same Greater Albanian plan. Together with the Italians, they attacked Western Macedonia and Greece. They had the Balisti fighting against the partisans in Egejska Macedonia also killing many Macedonians like my oldest uncle and others from his village.

The Albanian strategy of getting rid of all of the non-Albanians and to fully Albanize the regions into becoming part of Greater Albania is coming back to haunt Macedonia today. The Albanians have been abusing the rights given to them since the agreement. There is a big difference from working for the better of Macedonia and all of it's citizens and another to work to destroy it.

It is evident by many posts on this thread that the Albanian parties have a common strategy in Albanizing the western part of Macedonia and to later on split it into a federation. This in turn will allow the Albanian part to secede and become a part of Greater Albania.

The Macedonian governments have failed us by not tackling this problem. The Macedonians over there seem to be too blind to see, but it will come and haunt us in the future when it will be too late.

[QUOTE=Epirot;133628]Albanians do not exceed their rights provided by the constitution of 2001. Macedonian parliament is still dominated by the Macedonians (of 120 seats, Albanians have 29 that is 34%). Macedonian government is still prevalently Macedonian. The same goes even for army and police forces. [/QUOTE]
Epirot, ethnic Albanians could have 1 seat in Parliament and still overturn all votes. Admit it, it is a rubbish system that favours the ethnic Albanians. Go on admit their position of superiority. You can do it. Nobody is reading this.

[QUOTE=Epirot] I firmly stand to my previous statement that no decision (of national interest) has been blocked by the Albanian veto. [/QUOTE]No decision of national interest has been made since 2001. Can you tell me why Epirot?

[QUOTE=Epirot;133628]That's your perception! Under the Framework Agreement, Albanians earned some more rights (which previously have been denied) in conform with civil equality. Had the Albanians been privileged from that Agreement, they would already have their own parliament, security forces, budget, etc like the Serbs have in B & H. You keep complaining about that Framework, but you seem to forget that due to it was provided Macedonia's sovereignty. I firmly stand to my previous statement that no decision (of national interest) has been blocked by the Albanian veto.



That has nothing to do with a racist ideology nor superiority. The problem stand that a certain Macedonians oppose the very fact that Macedonia should be perceived as a national-state of all ethnicities living there. Even the Constitution of 1971 did not postulate Macedonia as national-state of Macedonia, but of all its constituent ethnicitities (like Albanians, Turks, etc). The constitution of 1991 (which affirmed Macedonia as a national-state of Macedonia by excluding others) was condemned with failure because it went against the nature of Macedonia (being a multi-ethnic country).

Albanians do not exceed their rights provided by the constitution of 2001. Macedonian parliament is still dominated by the Macedonians (of 120 seats, Albanians have 29 that is 34%). Macedonian government is still prevalently Macedonian. The same goes even for army and police forces.

P.S: This is my answer even to Risto...[/QUOTE]Perception? Have you even read the Macedonian constitution? Stick to the facts of the matter or don't comment at all - I don't have any patience for racist Albanian nonsense. The Framework Agreement (which was incorporated into the Macedonian constitution) provides the Albanian community with veto powers, effectively making the Albanian vote worth more than a Macedonian vote. That does not equate to civil equality. Civil equality would be where every citizen's vote is worth the same - one citizen, one vote. What we have in Macedonia is effectively one Albanian, four votes and one Macedonian, one vote.

Any further apologetic denials of this apartheid fact and you can leave.

As for Macedonian sovereignty, don't make idiotically retarded statements that it was guaranteed by the Framework Agreement. BS like that is so stupid as to completely defy rational thought and if you continue to spew such brain-numbing fuck-witedness, you will be treated like the useless moron that you are.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133632] As for Macedonian sovereignty, don't make idiotically retarded statements that it was guaranteed by the Framework Agreement.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt that you have read a single paragraph of that framework. As the Constitution of 1991 ruined the multi-ethnic being of Macedonia, the Ohrid agreement postulated civil equality that would balance Macedonian and Albanian tendencies. The sovereignty and territorial integrity of Macedonia got recognized worldwide.

[QUOTE] [I][I]Macedonia's sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the unitary character of the State are inviolable[/I] and must be preserved. There are no territorial solutions to ethnic issues[/I].[/QUOTE]

Consequently, Albanians got in exchange some rights, which have previously been denied to them. Yet the Framework Agreement is criticized constantly by a certain number of Albanians. According to them, those Albanians who signed that agreement were traitors who recognized Macedonia's sovereignty. You are so unaware about the other side of the coin. Judging from the articles of Albanians over internet, I see that most of them are not happy with that agreement. Even Ali Ahmeti is deemed as traitor. The FW would compromise demands of both sides. Had this agreement favored Albanians or made them superior (to use your term), then they would already have their distinct parliament, education, budget and security forces. FW has prevented Macedonia from being federalized as long as it affirm that the unitary character is inviolable.

[QUOTE]I don't have any patience for racist Albanian nonsense.[/QUOTE]

You are more than welcomed to notice in which part I made racist nonsense?

[QUOTE]you will be treated like the useless moron that you are.[/QUOTE]

I see you're so upset by a simple debate. Being unable to keep a normal conversation, you embarked ad hominem accusations. That diminish your moral integrity in eyes of many. Be at least more tolerant as the role of administrator should be!

[QUOTE]provides the Albanian community with veto powers, effectively making the Albanian vote worth more than a Macedonian vote.[/QUOTE]

You and your compatriots have miserably failed to find out any case when Albanians by exercising their veto powers have blocked decisions of 'national' importance...

[QUOTE]Have you even read the Macedonian constitution? Stick to the facts of the matter or don't comment at all - [/QUOTE]

I know that current constitution do not satisfy effectively the interests of disputants (Macedonians and Albanians). What matters the most is that such a constitution has provided a civil equality by determining Macedonia as multi-ethnic. By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic. But the constitution of 1991 tried to surpass that reality by affirming Macedonia as the national-state of Macedonians. Hence now, some Macedonian nationalists upheld slogans like 'Macedonia for the Macedonians', albeit the very fact that Macedonia is multi-ethnic country. Do you realize how unrealistic were their nationalist demands? Take for example the modern history of Macedonian revival. Macedonian patriots who struggled against Ottomans have always called for general mobilization of both Macedonians, Albanians and local Turks because Macedonia at that time was profoundly multi-ethnic. Even the Krushevo short lived Republic recognized Albanians as equal with Macedonians. Would you call them also traitors?

I am fully aware that Constitution of 71' (during Yugoslav period) is far from being perfect, but at least it equates Macedonians with Albanians and Turks. I strongly believe that Macedonia owe its sovereignty due to the Albanians and their will to be fully integrated into Macedonia's institutions in the basis of civil equality. There are some Macedonians (of your type) that do oppose the integration of Albanians. You're trying deceitfully to equate integration with Albanization. You're speaking like Macedonians are the absolute majority on the country - which has nothing to do with the reality. You are not willing to know that more than 30% of the population is not Macedonian. Also you have to take into account the demographic trends which are clearly on the favor of increasing of those ethnic groups.

"I know that current constitution do not satisfy interests of both sides (Macedonian and Albanian). What matters the most is that such a constitution has provided a civil equality by determining Macedonia as multi-ethnic. By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic. But the constitution of 1991 tried to surpass that reality by affirming Macedonia as the national-state of Macedonians. Hence now, some Macedonian nationalists upheld slogans like 'Macedonia for the Macedonians', albeit the very fact that Macedonia is multi-ethnic country. I am fully aware that Constitution of 71' (during Yugo""
Now you are talking rubbish You forget you are just a minority & look at the way you tried to manipulate the census ,you have lost all credibility.The way you describe it it is a rule by minority.When in a democracy it is a rule for the majority.Yes all parties can be represented but not in the way you want it with special priveleges way above ordinary citizens.Your lot has really derailed the concept of majority rules & you have eroded macedolnian soveregnity.You are lying to yourself that you want only civil equality.You are just in n stealth mode as you constantly underminng macedonian soveregnity.It's like a wolf in sheeps clothing,you are nothing but a shiptar racists you want a country within a country.Your rights are pretend rights think about it you enjoy so many rights allready look at the eu Macedonia surpasses all eu requirements on minorities.
You even get special priveleges way above other minorities you complain it's never enough & want more ,you want the budget,you want your own military,passports etc
Think about it you only want your country within a country so that eventually you can take the whole of macedonia.I saw the ethnic cleansing that your lot was doing on the macedonians years ago & are still doing it.So don't give me your shit about having respect you are just lying to yourselves.All is not well in Macedonia as you perceive it you just a shiptar full of shit nothing more & nothing less.

This is a good reason to boot you lot out of government jobs as you don't do them properly & you are discriminatary.
World Macedonian Congress



Military academy enrollment discrimination of Macedonians!



September 9, 2012, Skopje, Macedonia – The Macedonian World Congress (WMC) strongly protests the Minister of Defense, Besimi’s decision to enroll a number of Macedonians and Albanians in the Military Academy which is contrary to the equality of citizens before the Constitution and the law, regardless of ethnic origin, and contrary to equitable representation in the ethnic communities. The WMC would like to point out that discriminatory measures are applied by the Defense Minister: despite their higher ranking in the preliminary list, Macedonians are not found in the final list for admission to the military academy. They are replaced by Albanians with very poor results.



The WMC, therefore, demands that the government take action to nullify the admission results from the final competition and allow registration to take place in accordance with the results of the preliminary list, and not according to the decision of the Minister of Defense.



Military Academy Law does not specify how many candidates from the ethnic Communities are needed to be admitted, however if equitable representation is employed, it should be used in accordance with census results and without discrimination and segregation, and the number of Albanians in Macedonia is certainly not 50% but around 15%.



The WMC would like to advise all candidates dissatisfied with the way the new selection of students - cadets is conducted, to take all legal measures to prove the injustices carried out by the Military Academy’s admissions office and to protest to the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.





СВЕТСКИ МАКЕДОНСКИ КОНГРЕС



УПИСНА СЕГРЕГАЦИЈА ЗА МАКЕДОНЦИТЕ НА ВОЕНАТА АКАДЕМИЈА!



9 септември 2012 година, Скопје, Македонија - Светскиот Македонски Конгрес (СМК) најостро протестира на одлуката на министерот за одбрана Фатмир Бесими, бројот на Македонците и Албанците при уписот на Воената академија да се изедначи, спротивно на еднаквоста на граѓаните пред Уставот и законите независно од етничкото потекло, и спротивно на соодветната и правичната застапеност на етничките заедници. СМК укажува на дискриминаторската мерка на министерот за одбрана: и покрај високото рангирање на прелиминарната листа, Македонците да не се најдат на конечниот список за прием, а за сметка на тоа примени се Албанци со многу слаби резултати.



СМК од Владата бара да ги поништи приемните резултати од конкурсната комисија на Воената академија и да го изврши уписот во согласност со резултатите од прелиминарната листа, а не според одлуката на министерот за одбрана: бројот на запишаните Македонци и Албанци на Воената академија да се изедначи, спротивно на бодовите од средното образование, државната матура и остварените резултати при тестирањето на физичката подготвеност.



Законот за Воената академија не наведува колку кандидати од етничките заедници треба да бидат примени, меѓутоа правичната застапеност упатува на пописните резултати, без дискриминација и сегрегација, а бројот на Албанците во Македонија секако не е 50% туку најмногу до 15%.



СМК ги упатува сите револтирани кандидати, незадоволни од начинот на изборот на новите студенти - питомци, да ги искористат сите правни мерки за да ја докажат неправдата при приемот во Воената акедемија до Владата на Република Македонија.

Epirot,

This will be your last warning. If you continue to deny the basic facts of the Framework Agreement you'll be out of here for sheer stupidity.

Whether the Albanians have actually used the veto (they have) is irrelevant. The FACT is that they have it and this effectively makes one Albanian vote worth more than three Macedonian votes. This is not equality. This is a form of ethnic superiority.

If you are unable to accept the apartheid character of this provision, move on. We are not interested in racist Albanian propaganda here.