[QUOTE=indigen;80804]
Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was a strong anti-Ramkovist, and if I were to look hard (which I will not at this stage) in my archives, [B]I might be able to find a few posts of the old PP because they were quite illuminating and patriotic[/B]. [/QUOTE]

Well you may show some basic respect if that is the case and be glad that he is again with us.

[QUOTE]Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)[/QUOTE]

I just happen to know him better than your forum diaries.

[QUOTE]How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically? [/QUOTE]

Since you based your insinuations on assumption only, implying he got his views changed.
You didn't even gave him a opportunity to declare again his opinion stricktly on that, but you jumped on him pretty convincible.

I think, no, wait, I'm pretty sure you are really going to get it more often from now on.

[FONT="Verdana"][QUOTE=Big Bad Sven;80770]
I have to laugh at the internet shiptars who boast that western macedonia has always been populated by shiptars. Its a lie, as the documents show the shiptar pressence has increased in western macedonia because of macedonians leaving their homes and fanatical shiptar colonization of those areas.

I was speaking to dad and uncles a few days ago and they told me that back in the 60's and 70's places like Struga, Gostivar and Kicevo had an extremely small number of shiptars, and the only places that had lots of shiptars were Tetovo and Skopje...

I would say even Debar would have been more macedonian in those times but unfortunately our weak minded torbeshi brothers have fallen in love to the all mighty gheg dollar and changed sides.
[/QUOTE]


I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

[B]I posted population statistics in this thread b4;[/B]
[QUOTE=Onur;67804]
[IMG]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg[/IMG]

According to the survey done by Turkish government after these immigrants came to Turkey; %47 of them said that their mothertongue is Turkish, about %19 reports as Albanian, %34 Macedonian. So, we can say that only %19 of them was Albanian but %34 of them was Torbesh people. This %19 also fits with the cencus results since if 135.000 Albanians would be expelled to Turkey in that period, there was no way in hell you could double your population in Macedonia at the same period of time. Also we can clearly see the major decline of Turkish population for the same period.[/QUOTE]

In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.[/FONT]

[QUOTE=indigen;80804]
Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was a strong anti-Ramkovist, and if I were to look hard (which I will not at this stage) in my archives, [B]I might be able to find a few posts of the old PP because they were quite illuminating and patriotic[/B].

I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)

How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically?[/QUOTE]

So, I have a fan on this forum. Who would've thought. Actually I haven't met somebody who openly is willing to acknowledge my existence and the things I have done in the period of our fight for independence. But I do meet people who would educate me on how to protect myself from propaganda by using the knowledge they have begotten from my own site. Such people would persistently explain to me the problems of our society while quoting my posts I have written or the speeches I have given using my exact sentences and copying my word formation to the letter.
I guess everybody is smarter then me, everybody knows what is best for my people except me, everybody else is doing constant analysis of my society except me.
Maybe our politicians are right about one thing. Grab all the credit you can because no one will give it to you, grab all you can while you are in power because no one will be gratefull to you if you only work for the benefit of our people.
I have done what I did without seeking any acknowledgement for the effort, nor will I seek anything for my present and future efforts to create a prosperous and happy Macedonia. But I will not stand idly by while some ignorant fool who is still living the komiti and vojvodi years calls me a ramkovist apologist.

Fan or not your lack of knowledge of the situation we find ourselves in Macedonia and the conditions thereoff is disgracefull. Your willingness to attack your own if they do not fit into your miniscule and outdated worldview only shows the lack of respect for your compatriots, your ignorance of the social and societal in Macedonia leaves a lot to be desired and your patriotic behaviour is most questionable since all you do is bark at the moon without a clue as to what is really needed to be done for improving our present position nor do you have an idea as to which ailments should be cured first. Actually you do not even have the right diagnosis of what ails our society. You would remove our extremities in order to cure our cold.
I'm fed up with such patriots as you who sensesly holler war only to cover up their yellow bellies. Your rants and your skewed sense of what is a patriot of one's own people is detrimental to our cause as a people since you do not work for unity but you do continually disunite if things do not go only your way.
You can't see the bigger picture because you constantly focus only on one dot and with that you are convinced that it is you that can see, all else is blind. It is people like you who would gladly sacrifice others in order to satisfy your hunger for recognition... You are a prime example of an egalitarian collectivist or to be more precise a socialistically indoctrinated creature who is always acting through emotions instead of through reason.
I know, all to well, that the hardest thing that anyone can accomplish on this planet is to wake up somebody who is pretending to sleep but I do not give up easily when it comes to my Macedonians. So wake up and start reading me more carefully this time. You became a better patriot in the Ajvar years from reading my posts and my site. It is time for an upgrade. Things have changed dramatically from then as much as they have remained the same. It is much more complicated today then your silly and ignorant show of forcefull machoism which, if enacted, will lead only to destruction of what has already been achieved.
It is one thing to succefully propagate anticommunism since it only needs agitation in order to peek the aggressive emotions of the targeted. Today agitation alone doesn't cut it nor just having the will to help. Today we must face the social engineering head on with our own psychological operations. In order to have any success this must be done in an organised fashion which complicates things even more since we are a very disorganised bunch and I will not mention that besides people with courage and knowledge money is needed in order to have any kind of effect.



You wanted the old Protivpropaganda... You got him.

To the rest I will remain on an intellectual level befitting a person who wishes to communicate with other people of simmiliar leanings.

[QUOTE=Onur;80825][FONT="Verdana"]


I think Macedonia today, pays the price of Tito`s decision to expel around ~170.000 Torbeshi and the Turks in 1950-1960s to Turkey, which changed the demographics of the country in favor of the Albanians.

[B]I posted population statistics in this thread b4;[/B]


In the end, Tito expelled the people who would never have nationalistic demands and these expulsions caused Albanians to become biggest minority but Albanians surely have these kind of demands because you have borders with Albania and Kosovo.


I had a conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia last week. She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that her hometown is Debar and she studied pedagogy and education in an university in Istanbul and returned to the Macedonia again to be useful for her own people and community. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. She said that they`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?".

It`s ridicules!!! and she said that the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one. Therefor, Turkish teacher said that they are trying to warn Turkish people to prevent sending their kids in Albanian schools and try to convince people for sending them to Macedonian one instead of Albanian and they are trying to open Turkish language courses in Debar and Bitola by hoping that it would help their desperate situation.


She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted Torbeshi and the Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with ball-point pen afterward.

She said that they are working hard for the next census in Macedonia to prevent such stuff but she said that Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census.

Her last words was that they are trying to keep Turkish spirit alive in Macedonia which is under huge Albanian pressure in every area. She said that Turkish community never felt such a pressure from Macedonians themselves and they are largely neglected in everywhere like it was/is only the Albanians as the minority in Macedonia but not Turks.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Onur, There are many Torbeshi in Debar and basically they are the ones who are keeping our ethnicity alive there, i know that Centar Zhupa is a Turkish Municipality and Turkish is the official language there, i've read reports from the Mayor and he said alot of the people from the diaspora are keeping it alive and are investing alot in that municipality, they have alot of projects there and i think things are moving in the right direction. Debar is very close to Centar Zhupa and these cities are very small you're looking at 4-5 thousand people, unfortunately its very difficult to live with the Albanian minorities who constantly push this government for more things when for example the Turkish Minority around that region has never made any problems at all.

The Albanians always want to be in the front line and only care for themselves, they openly push for their language to be promoted everywhere, have their flag raised while all our other ethnic minorities dont do this. Now that head of the Islamic Community Council Sulejman Efendi Redzepi openly called for Macedonia to be cantonised and become similar to Switzerland this will fuel deep division in our region and tensions will rise will rise for sure not only with our people but with all the minorities in Macedonia aswell. In the Old Bazaar in Skopje which was built by the Ottoman Turks and it has been in our culture for 600 years, you have Albanians trying to take over parts of it and build their own monuments like the rebuilding of the old Ottoman Mosque which is a sacred site there and archeologists still havnt discovered whats under there, the Albanians are rebuilding it for themselves without a building permit. I can imagine how the Ethnic Ottoman Turks feel about it since they've done so much more and basically all the historical monuments they've built over the past 6 centuries are slowly being taken over by Albanian Nationalists, the mosques are already been taken over and now IVZ which is manipulated by the Albanians wants to take Ottoman Build projects for themselves, they even put Albanian flags on them.

[B]Indigen[/B] you give me too much credit.

In your Post038 you credit me with certain statements. Bar the last one…[I]I personally still hold the view that the government will not change the name despite their political doublespeak[/I]…I didn’t say them.

I might not have bothered replying if they were good statements but…

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;80735]
The shiptar isn't as strong as we are weak at the moment but if push comes to shove we will rise to the occasion as we did in 2001. They do seem like an unstoppable force for now...Right now anything we do to thwart their advancements jepardises us to an unaccepted level. The moment they lose the support of the western powers is the moment for payback.

Armed conflict with the shiptars is inevitable. The best we can do is to correctly choose the right time to genocide their disgusting islamic butts. This time we wont accept mediation of peace until the last shiptar has fled our country.:[/QUOTE]

If you really think waiting for he right moment is the answer then you have totally missed the point and all is lost.

The Albanians are a willing pawn I the west’s attempt to destroy what’s left of Macedonia…I don’t think the west expected us to still be around. The Albanians will never loose the support of the west so long as there is a Macedonia…even if the name and identity were changed I don’t think the support would end until RoM is busted up and incapable of ever becoming a threat again.

Legally stopping them at every turn is an option the government could try…you think.

What can be done now to solve the albanian crisis short of wiping them out.??

[QUOTE]Albanians are even deliberately trying to marry with the Turks and Torbesh, instead of other Albanians, to be able to convince them and even their family to declare themselves as Albanian in the census. [/QUOTE]

This is the F***in problem! Where is the Macedonian government? The government should be paying or at least [U]encouraging [/U]the Macedonian Muslims (Torbeshi) to marry Albanian women and assimilate them in Macedonian families! Instead, the government isn't doing shit and the reversal is happening! Look what Greece did, they paid Greeks and the prosfygas to marry Macedonian women, and it worked, thousands of Macedonians have been assimilated into the Greek identity this way! For crying out loud, this is why we have a Macedonian Republic, to look after the interests of the Macedonians!

[QUOTE=OziMak;80852]If you really think waiting for he right moment is the answer then you have totally missed the point and all is lost.[/QUOTE]
Ozi,
I would love to be proven wrong on this point but the fact remains that we have a much bigger problem that forces us to always play it safe rather then to deal with this problem straight on. You forgot to put SDSM and those that support that party into the calculation of your formula.

[QUOTE]The Albanians are a willing pawn I the west’s attempt to destroy what’s left of Macedonia…I don’t think the west expected us to still be around. The Albanians will never loose the support of the west so long as there is a Macedonia…even if the name and identity were changed I don’t think the support would end until RoM is busted up and incapable of ever becoming a threat again.[/QUOTE]
I agree that we have surprised everybody with our resilience and commitment to exist but I fail to see to whom are we such a threat except to our neghbouring states.
In any case, if the west wished to dismantle Macedonia they would have done it already. There are several factors that play a key role in our defiant existence and the major one is that they aren't sure how Macedonians would react to a dismantling of our state. Why radicalise a group when it is already in an apathetic and defetistic mood? They even keep the shiptars in check in order to keep us in this mood.
If we start behaving according to our great heritage and not like tsigani then we would lower the cognitive dissonance that we are provoking. All we need to do is wake up and smell the coffee. If we want to be treated like Macedonians then we should behave like Macedonians. This, ofcourse, doesn't mean that we should start conquering again. What it means is that if we are an ancient people of greatness then we should start behaving accordingly. We claim greatness but we behave in a very lowly fashion like beggars.
As soon we give off proof as such the support for the shiptars will be no more.

[QUOTE]Legally stopping them at every turn is an option the government could try…you think.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you but do take into account the fact that all they are trying to do is to provoce us into a conflict situation.
They brake the law. Law enforcement steps in to uphold the law. They attack law enforcement with civil unrest and start crying to the west that they are being repressed. Our neighbouring states help the destabilisation by confirming the repression and... We are in trouble again.
Legality is one thing. Presenting oneself as constanly being repressed is another and the shiptars are masters at crying to everyone that they are being repressed even though they repress the other minorities in such an uncivilised way.
This may seem as a no win situation but it isn't since it holds a solution beneficial to us. First we create support for ourselves as a democratic country and stabilise our economy then we can put them in their rightfull place. Even though there are numerous problems things are begining to move in the right direction. Today most of the psychological operations (propaganda) in Macedonia is aimed at stopping these processes.
This is very complex and it can't be thoroughly explained in one post but I think that one can get a general picture as what is needed to be done.

Guys the Albaniazation of the Balkans is an issue truly underestimated! The spread of Albanians to all corners of the Balkans is bewildering. In 2005 I toured most of Europe and I made special effort to tour all of Macedonia (Aegean, Pirin and Vardar). I was aware of the Albanians living in Macedonia and Serbia but I was astounded the amount of Albanians living in Aegean Macedonia. I visited Aegean Macedoniain 1988 and the amount of Albanians living there at that time was almost zero. The Albanians are like a cancer in the region. While Macedonians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs argue about old ethnic rivalries the Albanians are growing in population and in power. At the rate they are currently multiplying I would say that there is a real chance GREATER ALBANIA will incorporate Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia (Greece) and a good part of Serbia in the next 10 - 20 years!