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Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 10:48 PM

[QUOTE=Droog;105664]Let's see what scholars, who have general knowledge and authority on these issues have to say about "those" conditions(I'll present them in a timeline with one event each time as I want a clear reply to each action):

[B]1981:[/B][URL=",+the+authorities+used+this+fait+accompli+to+justfiy+replacing+Albanian+as+the+language+of+instruction+with+Macedonian%22%22&hl=en&ei=zW8kTuHmH8uq8QOo7KWpAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]After the aforementioned unrest in Kosovo in 1981, Macedonian communists started to bring Macedonian schoolchildren to Albanian schools, thereby establishing ethnically mixed classes; having turned strictly Albanian schools into ethnically mixed schools, the authorities used this fait accompli to justify replacing Albanian as the language of instruction with Macedonian.[/URL]

Using state measures to stop children from being taught their mother tongue is generally considered opressive, don't you think? Actually doing something like that is a violation of human rights.

Do you consider that opressive? Answer with a yes/no.[/QUOTE]
No. The country is Macedonia and all children need to learn Macedonian as the main language in schooling. As El Bre indicated, a small portion of the day should be allowed so that children from minority groups can also be study their native languages. The same should happen in other countries. Australia is a melting-pot of different ethnicities, but everybody is obligated to learn the official language of the state - as they should. In 1981, the Macedonian government introduced measures to revise school textbooks for the sake of consistency (because after all, it is ONE country) and to prevent irredentist propaganda, to increase the amount of hours devoted to teaching the official state language in Albanian schools, and to prevent such schools from not teaching the official state language at all. Is that oppressive?

Let's turn the clock back a little earlier. In 1968 the Albanians held large-scale demonstrations for the purpose of having Kosovo transformed into a constituent republic, and shortly afterwards, Albanians in Tetovo also demonstrated, for the purpose of severing the parts of Macedonia they inhabit to be joined to this suggested Kosovo republic. Nobody in the Balkans is happy with their current borders, but Albanians already have a national homeland in Albania. Don't the Macedonians deserve to have their homeland in Macedonia? Don't you think that such actions by the Albanians would naturally raise suspicion and concern among the Macedonian population?

In 1983 a number of Albanian teachers from Tetovo were dismissed for not observing regulations on the use of the officials state language in official matters, and a large number of Albanian students followed their teachers by boycotting and belittling the Macedonian language. This was reported to have happened in October of that year. Does that sound like a group of people that respect the country they live in?

Volk 07-21-2011 04:47 AM

I have a question for Macedonians, [B]When is enough, enough?[/B]

vicsinad 07-21-2011 04:59 AM

When everything is gone.

Soldier of Macedon 07-21-2011 08:50 PM

[QUOTE=Droog;105675]That right of the communities and responsibility of the state exists in almost all European and western countries Julie. It's one of the basic rights of every minority and whenever a government tries to revoke that right of course it causes negative reactions. [B]Countries like Germany that have progressed over the decades now protect the rights of even the rights of very small minorities like the Sorbs[/B], who are less than 100.000, and while in Germany they may not be necessary, such functions are an absolute necessity for multiethnic societies, whose progress relies on the peaceful co-existence of its communities.[/QUOTE]
Would the Germans accept Sorbs and Turks speaking in their own languages during a German parliamentary session?

lavce pelagonski 07-23-2011 04:13 AM

Ohrid: Ten Years Later

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Wednesday, 20 July 2011

Barely anyone in Macedonia is concerned with inter-ethnic relations ten years after the signing of the Framework Agreement in Ohrid, according to research by the Macedonian Centre for International Co-operation.

The agreement ended the 2001 conflict and has since been credited for the increased number of Albanians employed in state institutions and attending higher education, as well as dual-language signs -- in Macedonian and Albanian -- at certain locations.

"Things improved significantly but now the standard of living is a problem. More attention should be paid to the economy because that's what citizens are concerned with the most," Medzit Dautovski told SETimes.

Dautovski owns a gold shop in Skopje's Old Bazaar, where Albanians, Macedonians, Turks, and others have traditionally interacted.

"In 2001, life in the Bazaar died down, people were afraid to come here ... Now the Bazaar has livened up, cafes and stores opened," Borko Gavrilovski, an ethnic Macedonian who owns a fur shop at the Bazaar, told SETimes.

Gavrilovski said that many things, such as the dual-language signs, seemed impossible ten years ago, but "now we see it as normal and good that it is that way."

Under the agreement, Macedonia also changed the preamble of its constitution and passed laws to improve inter-ethnic relations and ethnic minority communities' welfare. The laws regulate the use of the communities' languages and flags, legalised Tetovo University and amnestied the Albanian insurgents.

The more important laws are passed by using the "Badinter rule", which grants Albanians the right to veto issues concerning culture, religion, language and education.

Moreover, the Macedonian government agreed to a new territorial re-organisation of the municipalities that grouped Albanians in certain areas into a majority.

"The first four years we were under the impression that the spirit of such an internationally-guaranteed agreement was welcome by all. As time passed, the political elites, regardless of whether Macedonian or Albanian, behaved nonchalantly towards the document's principles,'' Albanian-language daily Koha editor Besim Ilijazi told SETimes.

Ilijazi still praised the achievements -- the percent of Albanians represented in the administration and higher education, the official use of Albanian language and decentralisaton.

Many Macedonians, however, say the agreement was forced on them with serious consequences to their very existence.

"The change in the preamble of the constitution downgraded the Macedonians to an 'ethnic community' in their own state, after which the UN-sponsored talks concerning the differences about our name morphed into negotiations to change it," journalist Mirka Velinovska said.

A weakness of the agreement, codified in the constitution, is the 20% quota for Albanians in all social areas and institutions, Vancho Shehtanski of the political party TMRO told SETimes.

The set up has shown that fulfilling the quantitative requirement most often comes at the expense of quality, inhibiting social progress, he said.

Shehtanski explained that through the Framework Agreement, the Macedonian people have partly lost their sovereignty.

"If Macedonia, an EU member candidate, was made to implement such an agreement, the same should be done on the basis of reciprocity in our neighbouring countries, full-fledged EU and NATO members, with large Macedonian minorities," he said.


lavce pelagonski 07-23-2011 04:13 AM

Skopje. The Macedonian parliament adopted amendments to the flags law on Monday, the local daily Dnevnik writes.
63 MPs voted in favor of the amendments and 40 against. According to the changes municipalities where more than 50% of local residents are from national minorities will be allowed to raise the respective minority’s flag next to the Macedonian one.

Niko777 07-24-2011 11:58 AM

[B]Foreign style Mosques continue to be built in Skopje by Albanians (with Saudi funds)
This one in Butel:[/B]



Voltron 07-24-2011 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;106335][B]Foreign style Mosques continue to be built in Skopje by Albanians (with Saudi funds)
This one in Butel:[/B]



Arent there zoning laws in place ? Who authorizes this ? Who is the mayor and what the hell is he thinking ? There are more mosques in Macedonia than there is in all of Albania. For every mosque that goes up there should be at least two churches in the same vicinity. Seriously, this is disturbing.

Niko777 07-24-2011 03:06 PM

[QUOTE]Arent there zoning laws in place ? Who authorizes this ? Who is the mayor and what the hell is he thinking ? There are more mosques in Macedonia than there is in all of Albania. For every mosque that goes up there should be at least two churches in the same vicinity. Seriously, this is disturbing.[/QUOTE]

When Macedonians want to build a church they have to go through the necessary procedures which can take years because the system is very slow and inefficient, then the media will pick it up and slander the people building the church because it does not go in line with the detailed urban plan, then the Albanians will complain because no one asked them for their approval of building a church.

Yet when Albanians build a mosque there are NO documents or permits, the source of the funds are questionable yet no one says anything, then construction starts yet no one wants to bother them because God forbid an Albanian gets upset and cries human rights and the ethnic "harmony" between Macedonians and Albanians is broken, and before you know it the mosque is built and imams are sent in from Turkey or Kosovo teaching extremist Islamic views and poisoning the people with ideas of a greater Albanian state.

Voltron 07-24-2011 05:34 PM

Thats the process Niko. Ive seen it firsthand back home in the US. They make the majority "minority" status and "minority" with majority status. The Macedonians in this case have to take it to the govt. If that means they have to ruffle a few feathers than so be it.

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