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-   -   Ancient Balkan Languages - Proto Slavic Words (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=703)

Delodephius 01-24-2009 04:55 AM

Porphyrogenitus' work is highly controversial. First of all in his 'De Administrando Imperio' in many places makes no distinction between Serbs and Croats on one side and the Avars on the other. Could it be that his Serbs and Croats are in fact Avars?! Another thing is that about the origin of the Croats he presents two opposite stories. It appears that he tried, due to lack of evidence and maybe because of political reasons, to portray Serbs and Croats as late arrivals but he himself couldn't prove this and so his notes remained unsorted. That's right. "De Administrando Imperio" is just notes. His final work never reached us, but we know of it thanks to Mauro Orbini who mentioned it in 1601, ten years before DAI was discovered. But Mauro spoke of a different work of Porphyrogenitus, his final work. He cites in his work chapter 29. of the Emperor's book, but he doesn't call it "De Administrando Imperio" (name added later by historians), but: [B]"De Foedera, iura ac societates imperii Romani"[/B] i.e. "About the alliances, laws and the society of the Roman Empire". This title actually gives answer to many problems one encounters in the DAI, for example why is there no mention of the Bulgarians, the Arabs and the Germans? Because they were not allies of the Empire. But how did Orbini know about this book at all if it was published by Meursius only in 1611 and Orbini "Il regno de gli Slavi" in 1601? Thanks to Arpontahos (I suppose that is how his name is spelled in Latin) about who you won't find a single word in any lexicon of medieval authors, but nonetheless his name is mentioned couple of times. His work was of typical anti-Machiavellian style and it favoured the Church, quoting such anceint sources as Plato, Aristotel and St. Augustus, i.e. very typical for it's time period (renaissance). But this Arpontahos also quotes Porphyrogenitus. And the other interesting note he mentioned is that De Foedera was written in 959 AD not in 949-952 as DAI. Even if De Foedera wasn't the Emperor's last version of the book it certainly was the last since he died in October the very same year.
DAI is an unfinished work. This is true even comparable to Porphyrogenitus' other work De Thematibus which he wrote afterwards. But the most important thing is where did the Emperor get his facts? He certainly didn't get in Constantinople but most likely the same way information was gathered for centuries: the Emperor send a questionnaire to the provinces and the officials there gathered information from the locals. Census were gathered in a similar manner. So, what the Emperor wrote about the origin of the Serbs and Croats was their own story about their origin, in the Croat case the story of the five brothers and two sisters. However, this was most likely a legend coming down from the ancient period or a story the Croats made up to explain their origin, like the Greek mythology. The Emperor could have placed this story to the beginning of the 7th century, to the time of Emperor Heraclius who allegedly allowed them to settle on Roman soil. He perhaps tied this somehow to the Slavic raids across the Danube and the Avar-Roman wars. But where is this mentioned during the actual time of Hercalius? That is what I would like to know.

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2009 05:02 AM

Ptolemy's Geography would be handy, but I can't seem to find the relevant texts pertaining to most of the lands where the Slavic languages are spoken.

[url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/home.html[/url]


If anybody does have access to the incomplete chapters from the above link such as Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, Moesia, etc, do share.

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2009 05:21 AM

[QUOTE="Slovak"]Another thing is that about the origin of the Croats he presents two opposite stories. It appears that he tried, due to lack of evidence and maybe because of political reasons, to portray Serbs and Croats as late arrivals but he himself couldn't prove this and so his notes remained unsorted.[/QUOTE]
I am going to read it again to see where the contradiction is, I have heard about it before. I was not aware that Orbini mentioned the works, is there any other literature regarding his citation and significance, that elaborates why?
[QUOTE]This title actually gives answer to many problems one encounters in the DAI, for example why is there no mention of the Bulgarians, the Arabs and the Germans? Because they were not allies of the Empire.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure about the Germans or Arabs because I haven't read it for a while, but the Bulgarians are definetly mentioned in DAI.

Do we have any texts at all of Arpontahos?

Do we have any texts at all of De Thematibus?

[QUOTE]The Emperor could have placed this story to the beginning of the 7th century, to the time of Emperor Heraclius who allegedly allowed them to settle on Roman soil. He perhaps tied this somehow to the Slavic raids across the Danube and the Avar-Roman wars. But where is this mentioned during the actual time of Hercalius? That is what I would like to know.[/QUOTE]
That sounds very possible. There is no mention of a Slavic mass migration either in DAI.

Delodephius 01-24-2009 05:52 AM

[QUOTE]Do we have any texts at all of Arpontahos?

Do we have any texts at all of De Thematibus?[/QUOTE]
I couldn't find anything of Arpontahos. I don't know if that is the accurate interpretation of his name since the text I've read about him is in Serbian. I think I did find something of him once a long time ago.

De Thematibus, I think that this is the text:
[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=Cx8AAAAAYAAJ&dq=De+Thematibus&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=4gSqrNuKzy&sig=iPQ6rhhrQ8AYk1R6TDpbAba7bnE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA13,M1[/url]
But I couldn't find a translation.

As for Arabs and Germans, I think they are mentioned, but nothing significant.

TerraNova 01-24-2009 10:10 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;10051]


That sounds very possible. There is no mention of a Slavic mass migration either in DAI.[/QUOTE]


I just read in "Περί Θεμάτων" ("De Thematibus"), that emperor Justininan the Rhinotmetos (nose-cut) [685-695 /705-711] allowed to settle "Scythians"(=Slavs) in Strymon's Thema (Struma/Serres region and above) ,and now they inhabit the mountains around instead of Macedonians.

Delodephius 01-24-2009 10:22 AM

How many? You make it sound as if it was hundreds of thousands and that it is somehow so important that it proves that Slavs did migrate to Balkans.

makedonin 01-24-2009 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9996]

In Tsakonian, which is claimed to be a descendant of Doric, instead of Glossa they use Groussa for language, if this is a bastardisation of the former word, when did it take place?[/QUOTE]

it is Albanian feature the change of the "L" character to "R" character. It is very frequent one with very low rate.

It is noticed in Macedonian, Bulgar in Serb only as isolated feature.

My guess, either it is a local Macedonian change (bastardation) or it is an Albanian one.

makedonin 01-24-2009 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=TerraNova;10074]I just read in "Περί Θεμάτων" ("De Thematibus"), that emperor Justininan the Rhinotmetos (nose-cut) [685-695 /705-711] allowed to settle "Scythians"(=Slavs) in Strymon's Thema (Struma/Serres region and above) ,and now they inhabit the mountains around instead of Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

It is your East-Macedonia region of today:
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg://"]Byzantine Themes[/URL] What happened to those Slavs. How come that they are now pure Greeks ?


And if we go by that line, what happened to those Slavs that settled Thessalonica area. they should have been in the 100 000 of numbers, all according to this Byzantines writers ?


Did the Macedonians left the area of Thessalonica, as you would like to suggest in your post for the supposed Scytians = the Unproven Slavs, that they drove the indegous population ?

What does that makes you ?

Wonna be Greek of Slavic descent ? :rolleyes:

TerraNova 01-24-2009 04:16 PM

Don't blame me..blame his majesty...Porphyrogennetos! :D

makedonin 01-24-2009 04:37 PM

[QUOTE=TerraNova;10094]Don't blame me..blame his majesty...Porphyrogennetos! :D[/QUOTE]

you still did not answer the question.

If we say it is settlement of Slavs, than there was settlement of Slavs in your district of East Macedonia [B]former Strymon Theme, as well in former Theme Tessalonik[/B]i etc. It is in your Territory in your present country borders, you know !

[B]How does this goes with your alleged 4000 years of Greek continuity in Macedonia ???[/B]

Or do you accept your Slavic descent as well.

If so, what is your purpose here disputing and babbling about we being Slavs, when you your self is of Slavic descent ????

Or you don't agree that those Slavs were settled in Strymon and Thessaloniki Theme ???

Explain your self, or stop babbling


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