Flags/Banners of Macedonia
 

Thought this forum could use a thread dedicated to flags and banners used by us Macedonians, especially those of četi from years gone by.

I'll start off simple:

Flag of the Kruševo četa during the Ilinden Uprising, also the flag of the Kruševo Republic

[IMG]https://vgy.me/HdMZec.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/NGxauf.jpg[/IMG]

Flag of the Ohrid četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/kjvq6k.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/7tDZPd.jpg[/IMG]

Flag of the Struga četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/ioeecH.jpg[/IMG]

Flag from Zagoričani (Kostursko) during the time of the Ilinden Uprising

[IMG]https://vgy.me/y5ysdK.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;174823]

Flag from Zagoričani (Kostursko) during the time of the Ilinden Uprising

[IMG]https://vgy.me/y5ysdK.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Color photo

Notice on the bottom it says "20 July 1903" - the real date of Ilinden

[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Niko777;174843]Color photo

Notice on the bottom it says "20 July 1903" - the real date of Ilinden

[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Do you know if thats the original colouring or a recolour?

[QUOTE=Niko777;174843]Notice on the bottom it says "20 July 1903" - the real date of Ilinden[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify something about the 'real' date. The Gregorian calendar, which is what modern states use today, leaps forward from the original Julian calendar (which is approximately 1,600 years older) by almost two weeks. In Ottoman times, which is when this flag was made, we used the Julian calendar exclusively. Our church today still does for actual religious dates, but it superficially applies the Gregorian calendar dates. For instance, we still celebrate Ilinden on 20 July according to the Julian calendar, but on the same day it is 2 August in the Gregorian calendar. Same for Christmas, we celebrate it on 25 December according to the Julian calendar but on the same day it is 7 January in the Gregorian calendar. This is why I find it a little odd that our people in Ovčarani celebrate Ilinden on 20 July of the Gregorian calendar, because it's about two weeks earlier than the actual date according to the Julian calendar used by Orthodox Christians (including Macedonians during the Ilinden Uprising and prior to the usurpation of their lands by the Greek state). This is my understanding. I'm not an expert on this topic so if I have mistaken something anybody can feel free to correct it.

I'm no expert either but, if I was to hazard a guess, I think it has something to do with the communist atheist ideology of the time (i.e. in 1944/45) who, on the one hand, felt the need to commemorate the Macedonian people's uprising against the Turks and, on the other, break all ties with the Orthodox church. The modern equivalent of the Orthodox calendar date for Ilinden, 2nd of August, commemorates the Ilinden Uprising without tying it to the Orthodox Church. That's my take on it anyway.

Would it be better to go the way of Ovcharani and other Aegean Macedonian villages who celebrate Ilinden on 20th of July?...I'm not sure but I wouldn't be opposed to it ether way.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;174863]For instance, we still celebrate Ilinden on 20 July according to the Julian calendar, but on the same day it is 2 August in the Gregorian calendar. Same for Christmas, we celebrate it on 25 December according to the Julian calendar but on the same day it is 7 January in the Gregorian calendar. [/QUOTE]

Yes you have it completely right. Most Macedonians I've talked to don't know that on August 2nd it's actually July 20 on the Macedonian Orthodox Calendar. And they don't know that when Ilinden took place, it was July 20th to them, the Ilindenci.

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;174860]Do you know if thats the original colouring or a recolour?[/QUOTE]

Looks original to me, but I'm not an expert.

[QUOTE=Niko777;174875]Looks original to me, but I'm not an expert.[/QUOTE]

That colour pattern raises questions for me.

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;174881]That colour pattern raises questions for me.[/QUOTE]

Thе flag looks typical of a photo that has undergone colorisation as opposed to decolorisation. The washed out colours not withstanding, there are red and green artefacts extending beyond the tassels themselves which, in my opinion, are not attributable to noise. The inconsistency is most noticeable in the colorisation of the top right tassel when compared to the decolorised image and even the shape of the bottom right tassel is is different in both images.

As a follow-up to my last post: after a bit of research I am certain that the colourised image above is another Bulgar forgery. I found a site which has a vectorised version of the flag in question [URL="http://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_8985.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. The vector image has a red background with a black lion which, based on the preponderance of such flags, I believe is a more accurate representation of the flag's original colour.

Moreover, in the comment section of that site, a Bulgar has made the assertion that the "original" flag colour is green; the lion red, and that "no one draws a black lion" (translated from Bulgar), no doubt referring to the colourised image. This statement is of course false since the flag of the Razlovtsi Uprising also has a black lion on a red backdrop. The Bulgar also claims that the text is white, but in the colourised image one can see that the green saturation is overlayed even on the "white text" (evidently cutting corners). But the most damning of all is that the Bulgar actually [I]links[/I] to the potential source of this manipulation, another Bulgar on Facebook who [URL="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3132770689828&set=a.3117366144724.2134024.1581624596&type=3&theater"][U]colourises old photographs[/U][/URL]. He is then duly called out on it in the reply.

To top it all of, here is a real-life reconstruction of the flag that I found. I wonder what their point of reference was...
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/152d64660d2605d57fcf5f52bb563466/5B547E60/t51.2885-15/e35/26871740_569452103432837_8105259034568818688_n.jpg[/img]

You raise some good points, and at least you found the person behind the colorization. But I'm not entirely convinced yet on the color scheme.
It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if red and green was the color scheme, look at Apostol Petkov's flag from Enidze-Vardar, it was half green and half red. So let's not play silly games and imply that if it was green it some how makes it less Macedonian.
Sofia already has a large collection of original Macedonian flags, perhaps the Zagorichani flag is on display in one of their museums. That would be the only way to confirm.

Apostol Petkov's flag:

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Zname_Enidzhe.jpg/300px-Zname_Enidzhe.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://neumirai.org/sites/default/files/styles/content-img/public/news/novini-interesno-lyubopitno-3878.png[/IMG]

It wasn't my intention to insinuate anything but to deal with the evidence matter-of-factly and postulate what is more [i]likely[/i]. And I would retort that it's your insinuation that the image is a colourisation of a monochromatic image based on the original colour scheme for which you have no proof only conjecture which is truly silly. Either the colourised flag is a product of Bulgar fantasising or the vectorised flag and the real-life example I provided a product of Macedonian fantasising. Pick one.

[QUOTE=Om3n;174907]And I would retort that it's your insinuation that the image is a colourisation of a monochromatic image based on the original colour scheme for which you have no proof only conjecture which is truly silly. Either the colourised flag is a product of Bulgar fantasising or the vectorised flag and the real-life example I provided a product of Macedonian fantasising. Pick one.[/QUOTE]

Modern reconstructions and online vectorised flags are also irrelevant, it doesn't make anything more likely. Based on the link you provided, the Bulgars also reconstructed the flag, but this too means nothing:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/mwqX5q9.jpg[/IMG]

We have points of reference from the late-19th and early-20th centuries which provide us with "types". There are, as I said, examples of a black lion on a red backdrop and I'm aware of ones with a green backdrop (used seemingly exclusively by Bulgars) but the lion is always gold. My sleuthing skills could just be poor and I haven't come across an example of a red lion on a green flag as yet.

I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQxsejVyOlFRL-MEcTwzVUvyb9mJ81yFwiJOXmL-5qDCPTO63wbg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/ioeecH.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Om3n;174902]As a follow-up to my last post: after a bit of research I am certain that the colourised image above is another Bulgar forgery. I found a site which has a vectorised version of the flag in question [URL="http://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_8985.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. The vector image has a red background with a black lion which, based on the preponderance of such flags, I believe is a more accurate representation of the flag's original colour.

Moreover, in the comment section of that site, a Bulgar has made the assertion that the "original" flag colour is green; the lion red, and that "no one draws a black lion" (translated from Bulgar), no doubt referring to the colourised image. This statement is of course false since the flag of the Razlovtsi Uprising also has a black lion on a red backdrop. The Bulgar also claims that the text is white, but in the colourised image one can see that the green saturation is overlayed even on the "white text" (evidently cutting corners). But the most damning of all is that the Bulgar actually [I]links[/I] to the potential source of this manipulation, another Bulgar on Facebook who [URL="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3132770689828&set=a.3117366144724.2134024.1581624596&type=3&theater"][U]colourises old photographs[/U][/URL]. He is then duly called out on it in the reply.

To top it all of, here is a real-life reconstruction of the flag that I found. I wonder what their point of reference was...
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/152d64660d2605d57fcf5f52bb563466/5B547E60/t51.2885-15/e35/26871740_569452103432837_8105259034568818688_n.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]


Think you're onto it there Om3n and you are right about the black lion on the red background. Here is the flag from the Razlovci Uprising:

[IMG]https://vgy.me/FEbwGm.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Niko777;174910]I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQxsejVyOlFRL-MEcTwzVUvyb9mJ81yFwiJOXmL-5qDCPTO63wbg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/ioeecH.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This is possible as the fight was for autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, not total independence. So it would make sense to incorporate some Ottoman symbolism, we can't forget Sandanski posed with Ottoman flags during the Young Turk Revolution.

[URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgnrmknjj8qcuby/flag-compare.png?dl=0a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430184_3132770689828_1581624596_32543621_2135572442_n.jpg"][U]Here[/U][/URL] is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.

[QUOTE=Om3n;174915][URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgnrmknjj8qcuby/flag-compare.png?dl=0a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430184_3132770689828_1581624596_32543621_2135572442_n.jpg"][U]Here[/U][/URL] is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.[/QUOTE]

When was the Ilinden magazine published, 1920s? If technology back then yielded the same results as today's, then I agree with your post above.

Of course you realise you weren't even allowed to wear green in Ottoman times unless you were a Muslim. If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression. What do you think Deliberator of Macedon?

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;174919]Of course you realise you weren't even allowed to wear green in Ottoman times unless you were a Muslim. If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression. What do you think Deliberator of Macedon?[/QUOTE]

Apostol Petkov was the fiercest of them all, em komita em aramija :)

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/BASA-1900K-1-12-5-Apostol_Petkov.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Zname_Enidzhe.jpg[/IMG]

I would have thought a red lion on a sea of green would have been violently making a statement Niko.

I'll have to read more about Petkov.

[QUOTE=Niko777;174910]I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Risto the Great"]If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression.[/QUOTE]
I think there may be some merit in both of your suggestions. The green was probably borrowed from an Ottoman flag, perhaps because it was a familiar enough colour for a battle flag or perhaps because it was a sign of rebellion / aggression against the Islamic oppressors. It's probably a similar reason Bulgarians used it, except in their case they took it further. When they established their state they adopted the Russian flag and changed the middle stripe from blue to green, so the Bulgarian flag is, from top to bottom, white-green-red. In some of the flags (or supposedly reconstructed flags) used by Macedonian revolutionaries posted on this thread, if we are to assume that green was used, they don't follow the same colour order as the Bulgarian flag.
[QUOTE=Karposh;174867]I'm no expert either but, if I was to hazard a guess, I think it has something to do with the communist atheist ideology of the time (i.e. in 1944/45) who, on the one hand, felt the need to commemorate the Macedonian people's uprising against the Turks and, on the other, break all ties with the Orthodox church.[/QUOTE]
Looks like the Gregorian calendar was imposed on different parts of occupied Macedonia between 1912 and 1923. See the below link:

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Adoption[/url]
[QUOTE]Would it be better to go the way of Ovcharani and other Aegean Macedonian villages who celebrate Ilinden on 20th of July?...I'm not sure but I wouldn't be opposed to it ether way.[/QUOTE]
It's not better as it would be commemorated on the wrong day (as it currently is in Ovčarani). I think important calendar events should be acknowledged by their corresponding dates according to the Julian calendar, so next time Ilinden comes around on August 2nd (according to the Gregorian calendar everybody uses today), the church and Macedonian organisations commemorating the event could make an effort to publicise the fact that it is actually July 20th according to our old calendar on that same day.

Just so it's understood, there is no verifiable proof that there was ever a flag featuring a red lion on a green background except for a modern colourisation and reconstruction which are discredited by desaturation. There are however multiple examples of a gold lion on a green background being used in Bulgaria. In favour of it being a black or brown lion on a red background, there are several examples of historical flags using this colour scheme including the modern reconstruction from Zagoricheni itself ([url]https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.203802196751551.1073741832.174910359640735&type=3[/url]). Furthermore, in 1992 there was a proposal for the coat of arms of Macedonia showing a black lion or a red background ([url]http://heraldika.org.mk/heraldry/izborot-na-grb-i-zname-na-republika-makedonija-1992/[/url]).

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Ohrid_Banner1.jpg/200px-Ohrid_Banner1.jpg[/IMG]

Been seeing this image being spread around by Bulgars and them claiming that Bulgarian flags were flown during the uprising. Any truth to this?

[QUOTE=FoxTale;175400][IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Ohrid_Banner1.jpg/200px-Ohrid_Banner1.jpg[/IMG]

Been seeing this image being spread around by Bulgars and them claiming that Bulgarian flags were flown during the uprising. Any truth to this?[/QUOTE]

Yes I've seen this too. It appears to be a recolouring of the flag of the Ohrid četa, which I have already posted in this thread.

As for the claims of Bulgarian flags flown during the rising, I have never been shown any evidence of this by either photographs or written recordings. There is both physical and written evidence of other flags and banners during the rising but none about these mythical Bulgarian flags so I would say these are just Bulgar lies.

[QUOTE=Karposh;174867]I'm no expert either but, if I was to hazard a guess, I think it has something to do with the [B][U]communist atheist ideology[/U][/B] of the time (i.e. in 1944/45) who, on the one hand, felt the need to commemorate the Macedonian people's uprising against the Turks and, on the other, [B][U]break all ties with the Orthodox church[/U][/B]. The modern equivalent of the Orthodox calendar date for Ilinden, 2nd of August, commemorates the Ilinden Uprising without tying it to the Orthodox Church. That's my take on it anyway.[/QUOTE]

The "paradox" here is that the [I]new communist authorities[/I] were one of the strongest advocates (and supporters) for the creation of a separate/autonomous Macedonian Church.

Postcard from the Balkan Wars portraying then Bulgarian PM, Vasil Radoslavov with flags reading 'Independent Bulgaria' and 'Free Macedonia'. A good representation of how Bulgaria attempted to portray themselves as liberators of Macedonia and likely how they persauded many Macedonians to fight for them during the wars.

[IMG]https://vgy.me/iDfjzY.jpg[/IMG]

A flag likely designed around the same time, promoting a 'Free Macedonia' [under Bulgaria].

[IMG]https://vgy.me/B8h2IZ.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Niko777;174920]Apostol Petkov was the fiercest of them all, em komita em aramija :)



[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Zname_Enidzhe.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Don't know how I've only just noticed now that the red half contains the embodiment of Macedonia, which has appeared in numerous other banners and drawings, and the green half depicts a defeated Ottoman soldier. The triump of the red (Macedonia) over the green (Ottoman Empire)? Think it's fair to assume this could be the reason for the colouring of this flag.

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;176084]Don't know how I've only just noticed now that the red half contains the embodiment of Macedonia, which has appeared in numerous other banners and drawings, and the green half depicts a defeated Ottoman soldier. The triump of the red (Macedonia) over the green (Ottoman Empire)? Think it's fair to assume this could be the reason for the colouring of this flag.[/QUOTE]


Green depicts Islam.

[QUOTE=VMRO;176090]Green depicts Islam.[/QUOTE]

Well aware but in this context, Islam would be referring to the Ottoman Empire. As far as the Macedonian peasant was concerned, Islam was merely the religion of the "Turks" and as the colour was used by the administration, it was therefore also the colour of the "Turks"

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;176101]Well aware but in this context, Islam would be referring to the Ottoman Empire. As far as the Macedonian peasant was concerned, Islam was merely the religion of the "Turks" and as the colour was used by the administration, it was therefore also the colour of the "Turks"[/QUOTE]

Correct, At that time religion was still a factor to describe the different segments of the empire.

Islam was the Ottoman Empire at that time, they had most of the important holy sites in the middle East still in 1900.

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Osmanli-nisani.svg/800px-Osmanli-nisani.svg.png[/IMG]

the coat of arms of the Ottoman Empire featured a green flag at left (representing the Caliphate) and red flag at right (representing the Sultanate)

Flag of the Kumanovo četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/4ASSzf.png[/IMG]

Flag of the Kratovo četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/GlLUIF.png[/IMG]

Another flag from the Ohrid četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/fNBPUz.png[/IMG]

Flag of the Demi Hisar četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/mf82Oj.png[/IMG]

Flag used during the Melnik Uprising, later used in Ilinden

[IMG]https://vgy.me/Pam9VW.jpg[/IMG]

Flag used during the Neguš Uprising

[IMG]https://vgy.me/nbwXIz.jpg[/IMG]

Flag of the VMRO (Autonomist)

[IMG]https://vgy.me/he3S8v.png[/IMG]

Mijak flag from the 15th century

[IMG]https://vgy.me/yeuDhR.jpg[/IMG]

MPO banner from 1927

[IMG]https://vgy.me/qq7QC8.jpg[/IMG]

Proposed flag for the Kruševo Republic

[IMG]https://vgy.me/BySNbk.gif[/IMG]

What does the last flag say?

[QUOTE=maco2envy;176539]What does the last flag say?[/QUOTE]

20 July. The date of the Ilinden Uprising in the old calender.

Flag of the Gemidžite. Is anyone able to translate? This one is lost on me.

[IMG]https://vgy.me/qUeRUo.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;176574]Flag of the Gemidžite. Is anyone able to translate? This one is lost on me.

[IMG]https://vgy.me/qUeRUo.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I believe the closest translation is, "WE ARE CLINGING FOR MACEDONIA"

Pavel Shatev was known to have said the above.

To rexamine the potential forgery in some VMRO banners, let's bring up one of the Ohrid ones again.

Here's just one of the images used by the Bulgarians today:

[IMG]https://vgy.me/k7NJTB.jpg[/IMG]

And here's a poster made in [B]Sofia[/B] in the 1930s, depicting the same image in the background but clearly with no Bulgarian tricolour:

[IMG]https://vgy.me/VG0odu.jpg[/IMG]

Emblem of the 'Union of Macedonian Youth Organisations'

[IMG]https://vgy.me/ak5kRl.jpg[/IMG]

Flag from the 'Macedonian Youth Organisation' in Ruse c. 1925

[IMG]https://vgy.me/wtcI9Y.jpg[/IMG]

Another flag from the Kumanovo četa

[IMG]https://vgy.me/iGSf7v.jpg[/IMG]

Seal of the Plovdiv branch of the 'Macedonian Women's Union'

[IMG]https://vgy.me/WKYxEK.jpg[/IMG]