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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

Vangelovski 12-04-2010 01:05 AM

Protivpropaganda,

You have made a number of claims about the situation in Macedonia, including making the statement that the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia' is nothing more than scaremongering.

From what you have posted, it is quite clear that you have based this assessment on a number of false and unsubstantiated assumptions. Further, it appears that it is you that is actually promoting a number of scaremongering claims about Macedonian freedom and whether it can and/or should be exercised.

In relation to the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia', the point to be made is not that Macedonian individuals are being 'Albanianised' (though some Macedonian Muslims have been and this is a serious issue), but that the Macedonian state (i.e., its laws and institutions) are being 'Albanianised'. The proof of this is quite clear - the Framework Agreement and its implementation to date.

Secondly, sovereignty lies with the body of citizens. In this case, it is the Macedonian people. With sovereignty also comes responsibility. You cannot claim that the Macedonian people (i.e., the body of citizens) are an innocent party in the Framework Agreement capitulation and that the reponsibility for capitulation lies soley with the government of the day or international power politics (whatever that is). Further, a citizens responsibility entails defending the sovereignty of the body of citizens. This may be a new concept to you, but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen. At the end of the day the body of citizens are ultimately responsible for their own freedom and affairs. If the body of citizens do not wish to defend their freedom (i.e., sovereignty), then they don't really deserve it.

protivpropaganda 12-04-2010 04:31 PM

Oh well, I guess you are just another person who thinks that he knows more about social engineering then me. Do you really think that by outdoing me you would become a much cooler dude?
I am not a threat to any Macedonian but it is an error in judgement if one cosiders me a pacifist.

[QUOTE][B]This may be a new concept to you[/B], but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen.[/QUOTE]
You really didn't need to attempt to belittle me. Your post was intelectual enough without this childish attempt.
Well, what is done is done. So, as I see it, I can either give you a second chance, in a somewhat christian sense, to prove yourself as an intellectuall or I can show you the error of your ways in a eye for an eye vendictive form of behaviour.
Since you are a Macedonian only choosing one of the choices would show to be detrimental to Macedonian unity I so subscribe to. Since nothing is simple or black and white concerning Macedonian behaviour, I will choose e mixture of both.
First I will prove to you that you are bringing a knife to a gun fight... Or better yet to an artillery barrage. Then you can choose either to cooperate or continue to be a fool.
Oh... And... BTW, your terminology isn't correct. By using the word citizen instead of the word individual you are defacing and devaluating the individual by branding him with an strictly orginised society. Citizens have someone who orders them what to do, when and where. The individual, on the other hand, through reason and his morality does what is right.
Actually, you are using leftist, or should I say statist, terminology. The difference isn't large but it does exist.


[QUOTE=Vangelovski;80902]Protivpropaganda,
You have made a number of claims about the situation in Macedonia, including making the statement that the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia' is nothing more than scaremongering.[/QUOTE]
Actually someone else made the statement you are reffering to, you just picked up on it and used it.
Scare tactics or scare and sell as it is called is a scheme most widely used in marketing because of its sophisticated form of persuasion, but I guess you knew that already, right? When used in psyops it is called scare tactics.
Scaremongering is a laymans term denoting passive aggressive behaviour but I guess you knew this already, didn't you? I can tell, really I can.

[QUOTE]From what you have posted, it is quite clear that you have based this assessment on a number of false and unsubstantiated assumptions. Further, it appears that it is you that is actually promoting a number of scaremongering claims about Macedonian freedom and whether it can and/or should be exercised.[/QUOTE]
Do you know what Boza is? We have a saying about the clarity of Boza. Do you know it? That is how clear your assesment of my assement is.
I guess that you came to such a conclusion through your vast knowledge of psychology, sociology and socio-psychology or maybe you came to your conclusion while consulting your over two decades of analysis and study of our society. Maybe your experience from your work done in our society did the trick.

[QUOTE]In relation to the 'Albanianisation of Macedonia', the point to be made is not that Macedonian individuals are being 'Albanianised' (though some Macedonian Muslims have been and this is a serious issue), but that the Macedonian state (i.e., its laws and institutions) are being 'Albanianised'. The proof of this is quite clear - the Framework Agreement and its implementation to date.[/QUOTE]
OK, no argument here it is what it is but your point is...?

[QUOTE]Secondly, sovereignty lies with the body of citizens. In this case, it is the Macedonian people. With sovereignty also comes responsibility. You cannot claim that the Macedonian people (i.e., the body of citizens) are an innocent party in the Framework Agreement capitulation and that the reponsibility for capitulation lies soley with the government of the day or international power politics (whatever that is). Further, a citizens responsibility entails defending the sovereignty of the body of citizens. This may be a new concept to you, but I assure you that it is a core responsibility of a citizen. At the end of the day the body of citizens are ultimately responsible for their own freedom and affairs. If the body of citizens do not wish to defend their freedom (i.e., sovereignty), then they don't really deserve it.[/QUOTE]
From which socialist author did you get this? I will not discuss philosophy with you because it will be a waste of my time. Do you really believe everything you read?
The west used their millitary power to assert their interests and politics on us (power politics). Through threats and bribes and a whole bunch of scare tactics apathised and defetised the Macedonian individual to a point where he didn't care anymore. The success achieved in defetising the Macedonian individual was helped by a certain political party and the media. All they had to do is threaten the other politicians and the deal was shut.

To claim that the Macedonian people are as guilty as our "elite" is a show of sillyness, not to mention extreme ignorance that comes from watching, uncritically, too much Macedonian news reports and talk shows.
The Macedonians rose to the occasion in a fashion that spurs out pride to be a Macedonian. Not all Macedonians fled to local beach resorts, as propaganda would have you believe, just those who were members of SDSM and some of those that had the money to do so. There were a lot of them, more then needed, who volunteered for the fight but were turned down, yours trully included.
The fierceness with which they fought was another wonder and a very good reason to be proud to be a Macedonian.

We are a nation without leaders who are living out the consequences of our long struggle for independence. We are so in need of leaders that we proclaim presidents of political parties as leaders regardless. Those that are proclaimed as leaders in a short time acquire a behaviour as rulers while our people are drowning in a Hobbesian jungle under a very heavy burdeon of the devide and conquer scheme.

If you say your people also carry the guilt then by your leftist egalitarean and collectivistic ideology you carry the burdeon of guilt also.
Are you guilty for the signing of the Framework agreement?

Oh... and... BTW, it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual. This is the original to your statist derivative.


P.S.
If the members of this forum do not wish to have me around then all they have to do is ask the administrator to ban me from the forum.
All I'm doing here is defending myself from people who think they are patriots if they belittle anyone they percieve as a threat to their imagined, not proven, intellectuality.

Ban me if you do not want me here. Otherwise do try to cooperate, I'm all for it.

Risto the Great 12-04-2010 05:21 PM

Welcome protivpropaganda.
I am sure we all agree that (referring to the title of this thread) there is a serious Albanianisation of Macedonia going on. I guess we could all debate why this is happening but I think most would agree the USA had something to do with it in recent times.
[QUOTE=protivpropaganda]
There are several factors that play a key role in our defiant existence and the major one is that they aren't sure how Macedonians would react to a dismantling of our state. Why radicalise a group when it is already in an apathetic and defetistic mood? They even keep the shiptars in check in order to keep us in this mood.
If we start behaving according to our great heritage and not like tsigani then we would lower the cognitive dissonance that we are provoking. All we need to do is wake up and smell the coffee. If we want to be treated like Macedonians then we should behave like Macedonians. This, ofcourse, doesn't mean that we should start conquering again. What it means is that if we are an ancient people of greatness then we should start behaving accordingly. We claim greatness but we behave in a very lowly fashion like beggars.[/QUOTE]
I cannot see how this message deviates from Vangelovski's message. Though you do appear to despise the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia more.

Given your reference to our great heritage, how do you logically progress from a statement about "Macedonians behaving accordingly"? I look forward to your response because you have made it clear that the "individuals" are not to blame in Macedonia.
[QUOTE=protivpropaganda] it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys[/QUOTE]From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.

Serdarot 12-04-2010 05:32 PM

kaj si be PP :)

to be baned as a sign of welcome is kind of normal here :P

btw...

mnogu mi e interesno da gledam so koj se "zakacivte" odma, odnosno koi kucinja i kucki odma sakat da te pomocat, demek da si ja obelezat teritorijata :D

ama ne znat deka si imat rabota so shinter ;)

uzivaj na forumot, i se citame / gledame

pozdrav


at indigen: brat, lugjeto se menuvaat, nekoi i se prodavaat, ama mislam deka ovaj star volk ne menva kozhata, tuku samo ima smenato nacinot na lovenje...

poso i ofcite (shiptarite) gi menvat taktikite i izvorite na koi pijat voda, taka treba povremeno i da se menva taktikata so koja ke gi kolis

lovis de...

apeal to all of you:

STOP with fundamentalist Christian bs!

some of you spit on the Muslims, and i asure you, we have much more true friends between the Muslims, than between our "Orthodox Brothers"!

PP, i ti isto brat, ne se razbacavaj so anti-islamski sranja, mnogu losa propaganda e to za nas Makedoncite, poso i del od nas se Muslimani ;)

Risto the Great 12-04-2010 05:42 PM

[QUOTE=Serdarot;80945]to be baned as a sign of welcome is kind of normal here :P[/QUOTE]
What a stupid statement Serdarot.
I think we have banned 2 Macedonians in 2 years (for good reason too). If you are not a Macedonian, you might have something to worry about.

Serdarot 12-04-2010 06:00 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;80948]What a stupid statement Serdarot.
I think we have banned 2 Macedonians in 2 years (for good reason too). If you are not a Macedonian, you might have something to worry about.[/QUOTE]

keep it cool , Risto :)

it is forgiven, that i was banned here...

and if it was good or bad or no reason, is questionable, but as i mentioned, it is forgiven...

i can also say: what a stupid decision it was, to ban a Serdar...

let stay on "keep it cool" , Unity we Need, not some smalltalk...

Vangelovski 12-04-2010 09:18 PM

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Oh well, I guess you are just another person who thinks that he knows more about social engineering then me. Do you really think that by outdoing me you would become a much cooler dude?
I am not a threat to any Macedonian but it is an error in judgement if one cosiders me a pacifist.

You really didn't need to attempt to belittle me. Your post was intelectual enough without this childish attempt.
Well, what is done is done. So, as I see it, I can either give you a second chance, in a somewhat christian sense, to prove yourself as an intellectuall or I can show you the error of your ways in a eye for an eye vendictive form of behaviour.
Since you are a Macedonian only choosing one of the choices would show to be detrimental to Macedonian unity I so subscribe to. Since nothing is simple or black and white concerning Macedonian behaviour, I will choose e mixture of both.
First I will prove to you that you are bringing a knife to a gun fight... Or better yet to an artillery barrage. Then you can choose either to cooperate or continue to be a fool.
Oh... And... BTW, your terminology isn't correct. By using the word citizen instead of the word individual you are defacing and devaluating the individual by branding him with an strictly orginised society. Citizens have someone who orders them what to do, when and where. The individual, on the other hand, through reason and his morality does what is right.
Actually, you are using leftist, or should I say statist, terminology. The difference isn't large but it does exist. [/quote]
PP,

I don’t post to measure my “intellectual” ability. I post to make a point. As for your artillery barrage of “intellectualism”, I’m unimpressed. Perhaps that passes as “intellectualism” in your circles, but that is considered irrelevant horn-blowing in the rest of the world. Your association of the concept of ‘citizenship’ with socialism is probably because you are not very well read. You might want to think about where the concept of citizenship was developed, under what socio-political circumstances and what it actually means as opposed to what you think it means.

We could talk about individuals, but an individual is not necessarily a citizen of the state and therefore has no political rights or responsibilities in relation to other citizens.
[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Actually someone else made the statement you are reffering to, you just picked up on it and used it.
Scare tactics or scare and sell as it is called is a scheme most widely used in marketing because of its sophisticated form of persuasion, but I guess you knew that already, right? When used in psyops it is called scare tactics.
Scaremongering is a laymans term denoting passive aggressive behaviour but I guess you knew this already, didn't you? I can tell, really I can.


Do you know what Boza is? We have a saying about the clarity of Boza. Do you know it? That is how clear your assesment of my assement is.

I guess that you came to such a conclusion through your vast knowledge of psychology, sociology and socio-psychology or maybe you came to your conclusion while consulting your over two decades of analysis and study of our society. Maybe your experience from your work done in our society did the trick. [/quote] Your definition of scaremongering is basically YOURS. There is another, more commonly understood definition of the word which is used in a political context and not a marketing context. Besides, what exactly is your point? Or was this your artillery barrage of “intellectualism”?

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]From which socialist author did you get this? I will not discuss philosophy with you because it will be a waste of my time. Do you really believe everything you read?
The west used their millitary power to assert their interests and politics on us (power politics). Through threats and bribes and a whole bunch of scare tactics apathised and defetised the Macedonian individual to a point where he didn't care anymore. The success achieved in defetising the Macedonian individual was helped by a certain political party and the media. All they had to do is threaten the other politicians and the deal was shut.

To claim that the Macedonian people are as guilty as our "elite" is a show of sillyness, not to mention extreme ignorance that comes from watching, uncritically, too much Macedonian news reports and talk shows.
The Macedonians rose to the occasion in a fashion that spurs out pride to be a Macedonian. Not all Macedonians fled to local beach resorts, as propaganda would have you believe, just those who were members of SDSM and some of those that had the money to do so. There were a lot of them, more then needed, who volunteered for the fight but were turned down, yours trully included.
The fierceness with which they fought was another wonder and a very good reason to be proud to be a Macedonian.[/quote] PP, I never denied the role of foreign governments and our own vassal politicians. However, each and every citizen is responsible for their own personal and collective freedom. Certainly some Macedonians actively resisted the Framework Agreement, but it was a short-lived resistance. It is the responsibility of all Macedonians to continue this resistance.

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]If you say your people also carry the guilt then by your leftist egalitarean and collectivistic ideology you carry the burdeon of guilt also.
Are you guilty for the signing of the Framework agreement?[/quote] You need to read outside of your socialist book collection and understand what FREEDOM, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, REPUBLICANISM and CITIZENSHIP actually are and how they relate to each other.

Each and every Macedonian, including myself, holds moral responsibility towards reversing the Framework Agreement.

[quote=protivpropaganda;80936]Oh... and... BTW, it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual. This is the original to your statist derivative.[/quote] Actually, what you seem to be conveying is an anarchist idea, but maybe I’m not understanding you. If you do not accept the body of citizens as the basis of political organisation, and seek individualism instead, why is it that you need a leader?

I don't think we are too far removed from each other in relation to our views on Macedonia, but lets just wait and see.

Niko777 12-05-2010 11:16 AM

[COLOR="Red"][B][U]SKENDERBEU SQUARE - SKOPJE'S NEW SQUARE[/U][/B][/COLOR]

This project was approved by the Macedonian government:
Size: 24,000 square meters (a lot bigger than Macedonia Square)
Cost: 1 million euros
Location: 5 minute walk north-east from Macedonia square

According to the media, this [U]will[/U] be the new meeting place for the city because of its large size. This is a disgrace, the Albanian and American flags will be flown, the Albanian-language state university will have a building on the square, and let's not forget that statue of Skenderbeg. (Maybe I wouldn't have had such a big problem with the Skenderbeg statue IF THEY HAD written his name his name in MACEDONIAN, and placed a CROSS beside his name to highlight his Christian roots). Also, the square is open to future ideas like adding more statues of Albanian heroes (UCK?).

Here is the official video of the visualization. [U]Watch it carefully[/U].


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxgGGZ4fsF4&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Sheshi Skenderbeu 3d[/url]


Izet Medziti - Mayor of Skopje municipality Cair advertising the idea for the new square:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=navdds3CTuw]YouTube - IZET MEXHITI - Spoti Skenderbeu[/url]

fyrOM 12-05-2010 01:07 PM

The last post just left me deflated…why are we even bothering…who are you going to fight ant propaganda when its all state sponsored. What’s going to happen if anyone resists…the police arrest them…if they resist further…the army fights them to ensure the Albanians create the duplicity of all function of a society and government and creating a country within a country.

I really like your statement waiting for the right moment to put thing right…does that mean when they have fully established everything.

A useless pathetic people. They don’t even use the law when it is in their hands let alone later when it wont be.

If a person is too stupid to know what’s right just have a look at what the rest of the world is doing. What do other countries do…
One state flag for all including minorities
One state language
One state education system

Does only Macedonia have minorities and it is this new thing we need to figure out what to do with.
Does Australia Germany UK USA ect not have minorities. Do we see foreign state flags flying on government buildings. Does anyone have an idea why not.

fyrOM 12-05-2010 01:32 PM

Za dzabe se.

It looks like we in the diaspoa will keep talking to ourselves like a fart in the wind.

I understand that sometimes its necessary to take one step back to take two steps forward…the great plan…but it is now clear the great plan is to ease the country and the people into destruction…its easier to take a sleeping pill and not wake up. I would like to know how much everyone in government is being paid for his…I’m curious to know how much or collective identity is worth.

Prolet you seem to know a lot of inside stuff…any idea…maybe protivpropaganda can help you do the sums.


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