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-   -   1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3841)

Soldier of Macedon 01-31-2011 08:16 AM

[QUOTE="Voltron"]I base my definition on the definition of [U]Ethnos[/U]. Religion is just one of the components that I had used as a reference.[/QUOTE]
You couldn't provide an adequate interpretation of 'ethnos' if your life depended on it. What else do you have aside from religion? Surely not language and heritage given the Vlachs, Albanians, Macedonians, etc that now pretend to be 'Greeks' after almost 200 years of non-recognition by the Greek state? You cannot justify your version of 'ethnos' in any credible way when you rely primarily (and in some cases solely) on religion and disregard other key factors.
[QUOTE]Hellenic identity was reinforced and cemented with a Christian Byzantine outlook, as you mentioned espescially after the population exchange.[/QUOTE]
It's like saying fire was reinforced with water, but, whatever.
[QUOTE]Regarding Arvanties, I believe you are out of your element. What you stated is wrong and I am calling you on it.[/QUOTE]
I am in my element, I don't have to be Greek or Albanian. And you're calling jack, this isn't a game of poker.
[QUOTE]You would have to prove that Arvanties were forcefully Hellenized and their language obstructed to be spoken.[/QUOTE]
Well, let's see. There is no doubt that at the eve of the creation of Greece in the 19th century, Albanians constituted a significant element of the population and considered Greek a foreign tongue. Can you show me how many schools, newspapers, churches and other institutions that have been allowed to use the Albanian (Arvanite or whatever) language in Greece since then? Did not at least some of the thousands of Albanians in Greece want their children to speak their native tongue? Can you cite any examples of government assistance or support?

You seem to live in a world of your own sometimes, it's time you start dealing with the xenophobic elements of your recent history.

Voltron 01-31-2011 08:50 AM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;87752]You couldn't provide an adequate interpretation of 'ethnos' if your life depended on it. What else do you have aside from religion? Surely not language and heritage given the Vlachs, Albanians, Macedonians, etc that now pretend to be 'Greeks' after almost 200 years of non-recognition by the Greek state? You cannot justify your version of 'ethnos' in any credible way when you rely primarily (and in some cases solely) on religion and disregard other key factors. [/QUOTE]

Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history. When referring to the above groups its always within the topic and context of the thread in question. If you cannot understand that they were minority groups that have assimilated to the Hellenic Ethnos then I will no longer even bother. I cant bet my life on the definition of Ethnos ? OK.

[QUOTE]Well, let's see. There is no doubt that at the eve of the creation of Greece in the 19th century, Albanians constituted a significant element of the population and considered Greek a foreign tongue. Can you show me how many schools, newspapers, churches and other institutions that have been allowed to use the Albanian (Arvanite or whatever) language in Greece since then? Did not at least some of the thousands of Albanians in Greece want their children to speak their native tongue? Can you cite any examples of government assistance or support?[/QUOTE]

Its [U]Arvanites[/U] for the last time and they consisted a significant element [U]only in certain areas[/U] of Greece. Wasnt Gruevski branding Albanians as Macedonians on their passports ? Post proof of your allegations.

Pelister 01-31-2011 07:58 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87740]Elaborate on the three different meanings. Your reference to us as " New " in each of your posts is only making you look uneducated, ignorant, arrogant and just out of touch with reality. I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder mate.[/QUOTE]

I think the term 'New' as in 'New Greek' is very appropriate. I don't think its making me 'look' uneducated. My purpose here is not to look educated in any case. Rather I am here to expose your so called adopted 'heritage' for what it really is - a sham. I think there are serious problems with your identity, if we consider that contemporary 'Greeks' from the 19th century were speaking Albanian, and if we consider that the [I]Greek national dance[/I] in front of the British queen was an Albanian one. Where were the ethnic Greeks? On another note what never ceases to amaze me is the facile triumphalism you New Greeks display over the conquest of new territories, including Macedonian territory; and while you 'Others in disguise' were slaughtering Macedonians wholesale, the brutality of the invading Greek regime against the Macedonians has only been matched by the gentle, mischievious discretion of your rotten state in everything else. One thing is essential for the generation of such lies and distortions on such a massive scale, and that is naked conquest. You acquired Macedonian territory by force, and you held it by force in violation of international law, therefore the 'claims' of the invading 'Greek' to Macedonian territory will always be legally defective.

Onur 02-01-2011 08:24 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;87715]The New Greeks are very clever at writing 'Greeks' into places where in fact they don't exist. The way they do it is as you have pointed out. They categorize the term 'Greek' as loosely as possible to net as many as possible. I've noticed that the term 'Greek' takes on up to three different meanings in the one paper. It is precisely how they hide the ethnic identity of various people and write in 'Greeks' where none exist. This is how they spread their lies.[/QUOTE]

Yes Pelister. I recently saw another example of this from an article. I was going to post here but created a new thread instead;

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=87843[/url]

Stojacanec 02-02-2011 12:24 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87740]Elaborate on the three different meanings. Your reference to us as " New " in each of your posts is only making you look uneducated, ignorant, arrogant and just out of touch with reality. I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder mate.[/QUOTE]

Voltron, the term "New Greece" was a common term written in documents between various government correspondence especially druing the 1920s and 1930s.

This reference made to Aegean Macedonia.

Do you agree?

Why some 80 years later that region is now being dubbed as "one and only Greek" or "Macedonia 4000 years of greek history"

Voltron 02-02-2011 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=Stojacanec;87884]Voltron, the term "New Greece" was a common term written in documents between various government correspondence especially druing the 1920s and 1930s.

This reference made to Aegean Macedonia.

Do you agree?

Why some 80 years later that region is now being dubbed as "one and only Greek" or "Macedonia 4000 years of greek history"[/QUOTE]

I dont mind if you made a reference to New Greece Stojacanec.

Why do Serbs say Kosovo Je Srbija ? Its all relevant to where we live in. Those are chest beating slogans that we often employ in the Balkans. Its a rough neighborhood we live in. We are not like our northern counterparts. We are more nationalistic and we should consider slogans like those in the same light.

Stojacanec 02-02-2011 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87890]I dont mind if you made a reference to New Greece Stojacanec.

Why do Serbs say Kosovo Je Srbija ? Its all relevant to where we live in. Those are chest beating slogans that we often employ in the Balkans. Its a rough neighborhood we live in. We are not like our northern counterparts. We are more nationalistic and we should consider slogans like those in the same light.[/QUOTE]

Those chest beating slogans don't reconcile with how the territory was percieved 80 years ago.

I'd rather call them misinformation instead.

Nationalism has evolved quite a lot in the past 80 years.

Also Kosovo was a province of Serbia therefore the Serbs weren't wrong in saying Kosovo Je Srbija.

However, you can't say that Kosova's are Serbian because as you know most weren't ethnic Serbian.

Voltron 02-02-2011 08:34 AM

[QUOTE=Stojacanec;87898]However, you can't say that Kosova's are Serbian because as you know most weren't ethnic Serbian.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The demographics changed but the Serbian feeling did not. Yes, I understand there are differences between the two comparisons and I dont necessarily disagree with you. The essence is the same though, they are a part of balkan nationalism right or wrong.

On a side note, I thought Kosovo was a Yugoslavian province and not necessarily Serbia's.

Orfej 02-02-2011 11:03 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87755][QUOTE]

Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history. When referring to the above groups its always within the topic and context of the thread in question. If you cannot understand that they were minority groups that have assimilated to the Hellenic Ethnos then I will no longer even bother. I cant bet my life on the definition of Ethnos ? OK.
[/QUOTE]

Fool, you don't get it! The problem is not that some foreign groups were assimilated in the Greek ethnos(that happens all over the world), the problem is that those groups were being regarded as `Greeks` long before they got assimilated. So we had a situation of an `ordinary Arvanite` who spoke Albanian, had an Albanian culture and traditions, had no idea of what does the term `Hellen`means etc. What criteria you used to label these people as `Hellens` is beyond me.

Voltron 02-02-2011 11:31 AM

No, you dont get it my friend. You probably didnt even read the prior pages either.

[QUOTE]Orfej;87913]
What criteria you used to label these people as `Hellens` is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

Consciousness...


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