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-   -   Ancient Balkan Languages - Proto Slavic Words (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=703)

Soldier of Macedon 01-17-2009 10:23 AM

Ancient Balkan Languages - Proto Slavic Words
 
The Thracian language, or what is left of it anyway, has shown itself to be remarkably close to Balto-Slavic languages, on a much larger scale than with any other European language. Given that the area in which Balto-Slavic is spoken is somewhat larger than the Thracian territory, the notion that Thracian words in the Balto-Slavic languages are 'loan words' is automatically dismissed.

Check the following few to begin with:

Asa (Coltsfoot in Thracian)
Asys (Horse tail in Luthianian)
Opashka (Tail in Macedonian)
Ostro (Sharp in Macedonian)

Bolinthos (Wild bull in Thracian)
Biol (Bison in Macedonian)
Vol (Bull in Macedonian)

Brilon (Barber in Thracian)
Brichi (Shave in Macedonian)

Diza (Fortified settlement in Thracian)
Dzid (Wall in Macedonian)

Dinupula (Wild pumpkin in Thracian)
Dinya (Melon fruit in Macedonian)


There are plenty more to be posted.

Soldier of Macedon 01-17-2009 08:35 PM

I changed the title of the thread as the topics can be in the broader context of Balkan languages and Proto Slavic words in general.

Soldier of Macedon 01-17-2009 09:05 PM

Phrygian was spoken both in Asia Minor and the Balkans, where it is recorded that they lived among Macedonians, going by the name of Brygians and identified as a Thracian tribe.

When Alexander and the Macedonians entered Asia Minor they soon reached a certain river where a battle against the Persian forces took place. The river was located in Phrygian territory and was called [B]Granicus[/B] (Granikos).

Given that rivers form natural boundaries, it is very likely that the name of this particular river has a relative in the word [B]Granica[/B] (Granitsa), which is used in all Slavic languages to signify a 'border' or 'boundary'.

The word is related to a type of fortification or cordoning off, hence it may derive from the Phrygian word [B]Gordum[/B], which means 'city' and was the inspiration for the name of the Phrygian capital in Asia Minor.

[url]http://i-cias.com/e.o/phrygia.htm[/url]
[QUOTE][B][I]Gordum was the Phrygian word for city.[/I][/B][/QUOTE]

A word for city in the Slavic languages is [B]Grad[/B] or [B]Gorod[/B], an obvious cognate and close relative of [B]Gordum[/B]. Further words stemming from this can be seen in [B]Zagradi[/B] which means to 'fortify', [B]Gradina[/B] which means 'garden' (due to the concept of having a particular area cordoned off to grow foods), and [B]Gradi[/B] which means 'chest' (due to the fortified protection the bones in that area give to vital organs).

Such close relation in words cannot have arisen from loans, Phrygian (Brygian) as a language spoken historically in Asia Minor and among the people of Macedonia and Thrace demonstrates significant links to the Slavic languages.

Soldier of Macedon 01-17-2009 09:13 PM

With regard to Grad, Gorod, Gordum, Granica, etc, there may be a relation to the ancient Macedonian word for a 'branch', recorded by Hesychius as [B]Garkan[/B], and in modern Macedonian [B]Granka[/B].

Given that a branch is on the edge and fringes of the body of a tree, it appears to indicate a relation with [B]Granica[/B] as a 'boundary'.

Soldier of Macedon 01-17-2009 09:39 PM

Another ancient name for the river Danube is [B]Ister[/B] (Istros), and is of Scythian or Thracian origin, or both. The word is very close to Macedonian [B]Isturi[/B] and [B]Turi[/B] which mean to 'spill' and 'pour' respectively, thus providing a link with reference to an action in relation to liquid (such as water). There is also [B]Isterai[/B] and [B]Terai[/B] which mean to 'push/move along/out' and 'move/force' respectively, indicating a relation to the movement of flowing waters in a river.

Radislav Katicic in his 'Ancient Languages of the Balkans' suggests that the Thracian word [B]Istros[/B] means 'strong' or 'swift', related to a Sanskrit equivalent. Can there be a possible connection to the Slavic languages established with the word [B]Ostro[/B] which means 'sharp'? If so, it would call into question the relation of this word to the Thracian Asa.

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2009 04:49 AM

Here is an interesting one which has been mentioned previously, the Macedonian word [B]Golem[/B] which means 'large'. In the same or similar form, it is present in some other Slavic languages although used in varying degrees such as [B]Golyam[/B] (Bulgarian), [B]Golem[/B] (Serbian, Croatian) and much less as [B]Holem[/B] (Czech).

In the Greek language to word [B]Megalo[/B] exists which means 'large'. The distinct similarity to the abovementioned Slavic word provides a strong case for a cognate.

While Macedonians (and Bulgarians and Serbs partially) have historically lived as direct neighbours of Greek-speakers, the Croats and Czechs have not, and these two shared no cultural or historical affinity with Greek-speakers in general.

If this is a Greek word by origin, how did the Czechs and Croats come to use it?

Delodephius 01-18-2009 05:21 AM

Just to ask you SoM, where did you find "holem" in Czech?

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2009 05:27 AM

I read it in a Slavic language thread in a forum not too long ago where the poster had cited some poems or songs with the word. Is it present in Slovak, or do you think it is incorrect?

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2009 05:32 AM

From here Slovak, check:

[url]http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1159148[/url]

See post # 14:

[QUOTE]In Czech the adjective [B]holemý[/B] (the nominal form would be [B]holem[/B]) means velký, veliký = big. But it is not used nowadays. I think the younger generation do not know it at all. Nothing in common with the Jewish golem. I think it is rather distantly related to holý (gol = bare) and hlava (glava, golova = head).

Some archaic examples:

Těch kobylek bylo toho roku množství veliké v Arabii, a po skalách hor svatých i po cestě zvlášť v noci místem jich dosti zhusta se prolétalo; a byly [B]holemé[/B], nebo když nám někdy o tvář zavadily, zdálo se nejináč, než jakoby kamínky malými házel.

Jest pak pštros pokolení ptačí a divoké zvíře, velké co by člověk prostřední rukou nad hlavu vysáhnouti mohl; nohy má holé a tlusté co [B]holemé[/B] pachole v patnácti letech, ...[/QUOTE]

As a Czech I am assuming the poster called Cajzl is confident in the knowledge of his own language, but if something doesn't sound right, then I would appreciate it if you pointed it out, as it would limit the word to the Slavic languages in the Balkans although retaining distant Croatia.

Delodephius 01-18-2009 05:35 AM

Locative case of the word [B]holý[/B] - naked, clear, is [B]holem[/B].

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2009 05:40 AM

Check the below link also, it gives a more detailed version of the text:

[url]http://citanka.cz/tocp1250.en/harant/II-11.html[/url]


What do you think?

Delodephius 01-18-2009 05:52 AM

The word "holemý" appears quite archaic and I only could find it in the dictionary of Old Czech not Modern. It also seems to appear only in Czech apart from the South Slavic languages, but I don't think it appears in Slovene.
It could have been imported by the Glagolitic liturgy from Croatia.

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2009 05:54 AM

Interesting, thanks Slovak.

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2009 07:08 AM

There is a Croatian tennis player called Roko [B]KARANUSIC[/B].

It would be interesting to determine the origin of that name.

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2009 07:24 AM

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=9867#post9867[/url]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9867]The Thracian [B][I]Pulpudeva[/I][/B] produces some interesting information also, 'dava' and 'deva' are common suffixes of Thracian placenames, which are very similar to 'ovo', 'evo', 'ova' and 'eva' in Slavic.

Thacian toponyms found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

[B][I]Pulpud[COLOR="Red"]eva[/COLOR], Zisnud[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Cumud[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Markod[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Pelend[COLOR="red"]ova[/COLOR], Girid[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Sucid[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Pred[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Slavic toponyms, hydronyms, personal names and surnames found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

[B][I]Kic[COLOR="red"]evo[/COLOR], Brez[COLOR="red"]ovo[/COLOR], Tet[COLOR="red"]ovo[/COLOR], Trn[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Bratisl[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Mor[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Petr[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Mil[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Borisl[COLOR="red"]av[/COLOR], Voisl[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR].[/I][/B]


It seems that at some point the 'd' in 'deva' was dropped where now it is present as 'eva' and 'ava', and in other variants such as ovo, ova and evo.

In Slavic, the 'eva' suffix is reserved largely for female surnames, such as Petreva, Mileva, Gorgieva, etc. The 'ev' and 'ov' suffixes are common from Russia to Macedonia, this is a purely Slavic suffix.

There are no other linguistic groups that use such suffixes except the Slavic-speakers, who live exactly where the Thracians of the ancient period had existed. There can be no doubt that the Thracian language is related to the Balto-Slavic linguistic group, our language has ancient roots.[/QUOTE]

This will have more relevance here.

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2009 07:49 AM

Here is something else that is interesting about Thracian placenames, this time with regard to the suffix 'diza' which has evolved into Slavic 'itsa', again, the 'd' is dropped. In ancient times it seems to be largely present in eastern Thrace, and given its widespread use in varying degrees among the Slavic languages, the particular tribes that employed such names more frequently are likely to have spread from this area originally.

Thracian (Most are likely to have appeared on record in the 'Hellenized' form, ie; 'os' suffix):

[B][I]Tyrod[COLOR="Red"]iza[/COLOR], Kistid[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Tarpod[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Beod[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Ostud[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Bortud[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Slavic:

[B][I]Strum[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR], Bistr[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR], Bel[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR], Banska Stiavn[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR], Koprivn[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR], Virovit[COLOR="red"]itsa[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2009 10:33 PM

From the first post on this thread, in relation to the suffix 'diza':

[QUOTE]Diza (Fortified settlement in Thracian)
Dzid (Wall in Macedonian)[/QUOTE]

The probable assumption that 'diza' meant a 'settlement' seems to derive from its use as a suffix in Thracian placenames. It is interesting to see how it still relates to Slavic words in variants.

Of all the ancient languages that were related to Slavic, Thracian has the most to offer in terms of evidence and conclusive links.

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 08:18 AM

The word for 'language' in Greek is [B]Glossa (Γλώσσα)[/B], whereas the word for 'voice' in Macedonian and Slavic in general is [B]Glas (Глас)[/B], while in Russian it is [B]Golos (Голос)[/B].

There must be a relation between these two words as 'language' and 'voice' can both be in reference to speech. Given that all of the Slavic languages employ this word, it cannot be a loan from Greek.

makedonin 01-23-2009 08:42 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9941]The word for 'language' in Greek is [B]Glossa (Γλώσσα)[/B], whereas the word for 'voice' in Macedonian and Slavic in general is [B]Glas (Глас)[/B], while in Russian it is [B]Golos (Голос)[/B].

There must be a relation between these two words as 'language' and 'voice' can both be in reference to speech. Given that all of the Slavic languages employ this word, it cannot be a loan from Greek.[/QUOTE]

Ancient Hellenes used Φονη > Fone for language, while in Modern Greek it means voice.
[QUOTE]
The word [B]φονη [/B]actually meant language, as can be seen in the example in the Drama Agamemnon written by Aeschylus where written:
[B]αγνωτα φονην βαρβαρον -> the unknown barbarian language.[/B]
The same word for language is written by Xenophon in his Kunegetikos 2.3
where he says: [B]φονην Ηελληνα -> the Hellenic language.[/B]

References:

A Greek English lexicon / comp. by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott. Rev. and augmented throughout by Henry Stuart Jones . - New (9.) ed., reprint, with a supplement . - Oxford : Clarendon Press , 1968 . - Getr. [Bearb.]
[/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 09:28 AM

So if Glossa means 'language' in modern Greek, what did it mean in ancient Greek?

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 09:41 AM

[QUOTE][B][I]Pulpud[COLOR="Red"]eva[/COLOR], Zisnud[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Cumud[COLOR="red"]eva[/COLOR], Markod[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Pelend[COLOR="red"]ova[/COLOR], Girid[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Sucid[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR], Pred[COLOR="red"]ava[/COLOR][/I][/B], [B][I]Tyrod[COLOR="Red"]iza[/COLOR], Kistid[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Tarpod[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Beod[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Ostud[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR], Bortud[COLOR="red"]iza[/COLOR][/I][/B].......................[/QUOTE]

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4526/thrlangcf5.gif[/IMG][/URL]

makedonin 01-23-2009 10:09 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9946]So if Glossa means 'language' in modern Greek, what did it mean in ancient Greek?[/QUOTE]

It had various meanings:

[QUOTE]γλῶσσα, Ion. γλάσσα, Herod. 3.84, al., SIG 1002.7 (Milet.), Schwyzer 692 (Chios), Att. γλῶττα, ης, ἡ, tongue, Od. 3.332, etc.

b γ. λάρυγγος, = γλωττίς, larynx, Gal. UP 7.13.

2 tongue, as the organ of speech, γλώσσης χάριν through love of talking, Hes. Op. 709, A. Ch. 266; γλώσσῃ ματαίᾳ Id. Pr. 331, cf. Eu. 830; γλώσσης ἀκρατής Id. Pr. 884 (lyr.); μεγάλης γ. κόμποι S. Ant. 128; γλώσσῃ δεινός, θρασύς, Id. OC 806, Aj. 1142; ἡ γ. ὀμώμοχ' ἡ δὲ φρὴν ἀνώμοτος E. Hipp. 612: with Preps., ἀπὸ γλώσσης by frankness of speech, Thgn. 63; φθέγγεσθαι Pi. O. 6.13 (but ἀπὸ γ. ληίσσεται, opp. χερσὶ βίῃ, of fraud opp. violence, Hes. Op. 322); also, by word of mouth, Hdt. 1.123, Th. 7.10, Arr. An. 2.14.1; τῷ νῷ θ' ὁμοίως κἀπὸ τῆς γ. λέγω S. OC 936; τὰ γλώσσης ἄπο, i.e. our words, E. Ba. 1049; ἀπὸ γ. φράσω by heart, opp. γράμμασιν, Cratin. 122; οὐκ ἀπὸ γλώσσης not from mere word of mouth, but after full argument, A. Ag. 813; μὴ διὰ γλώσσης without using the tongue, E. Supp. 112; ἐν ὄμμασιν . . δεδορκὼς κοὐ κατὰ γλῶσσαν κλύων S. Tr. 747:—phrases: πᾶσαν γλῶτταν βασάνιζε try every art of tongue, Ar. V. 547; πᾶσαν ἱέναι γλῶσσαν let loose one's whole tongue, speak withoutrestraint, S. El. 596; πολλὴν γ. ἐγχέας μάτην Id. Fr. 929; κακὰ γ. slander, Pi. P. 4.283: pl., ἐν κερτομίοις γλώσσαις, i.e. with blasphemies, S. Ant. 962 (lyr.), cf. Aj. 199 (lyr.): βοῦς, κ ῇς ἐπὶ γλώσσῃ, v. βοῦς, κλείς.

3 of persons, one who is all tongue, speaker, of Pericles, μεγίστη γ. τῶν Ἑλληνίδων Cratin. 293, cf. Ar. Fr. 629 (s. v. l.).

4 ἡ γ. τοῦ ταμιείου the advocacy of the fiscus, Philostr. VS 2.29.

II language, ἄλλη δ' ἄλλων γ. μεμιγμένη Od. 19.175, cf. Il. 2.804; γλῶσσαν ἱέναι speak a language or dialect, Hdt. 1.57; γ. Ἑλληνίδα, Δωρίδα ἱέναι, Id. 9.16, Th. 3.112, cf. A. Pers. 406, Ch. 564; γλῶσσαν νομίζειν Hdt. 1.142, 4.183; γλώσσῃ χρῆσθαι Id. 4.109; κατὰ τὴν ἀρχαίαν γ. Arist. Rh. 1357b10; dialect, ἡ Ἀττικὴ γ. Demetr. Eloc. 177; but also Δωρὶς διάλεκτος μία ὑφ' ἥν εἰσι γ. πολλαί Tryph. ap. Sch.D.T. p.320 H.

2 obsolete or foreign word, which needs explanation, Arist. Rh. 1410b12, Po. 1457b4, Plu. 2.406f: hence Γλῶσσαι, title of works by Philemon and others.

3 people speaking a distinct language, LX X. Ju. 3.8 (pl.), interpol. in Scyl. 15.

III anything shaped like the tongue (cf. γλῶσσαι ὡσεὶ πυρός Act.Ap. 2.3).

1 in Music, rced or tongue of a pipe, Aeschin. 3.229, Arist. HA 565a24, Thphr. HP 4.11.4, etc.

2 tongue or thong of leather, shoe-latchet, Pl.Com. 51, Aeschin.Socr. 57.

3 tongue of land, App. Pun. 121, cf. 95.

4 ingot, γ. χρυσῆ LXX Jo. 7.21.

5 marking on the liver, in divination, Hsch. (γλῶσσα from γλωχ-y[acaron], cf. γλώξ, γλωχίς; γλάσσα from ̄αστ;γλᾰχ-y[acaron], weak grade of same root.)


Reference: Liddle and Scott

[/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9941]The word for 'language' in Greek is [B]Glossa (Γλώσσα)[/B], whereas the word for 'voice' in Macedonian and Slavic in general is [B]Glas (Глас)[/B], while in Russian it is [B]Golos (Голос)[/B].

There must be a relation between these two words as 'language' and 'voice' can both be in reference to speech. Given that all of the Slavic languages employ this word, it cannot be a loan from Greek.[/QUOTE]
In Church Slavonic, [B]Glasu (Гласу)[/B] can mean 'voice', 'sound' or 'word'.

Delodephius 01-23-2009 02:39 PM

SoM, check this out:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbinum[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 04:20 PM

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/5470/300pxleonidiotsakonianslp0.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

In Tsakonian, which is claimed to be a descendant of Doric, instead of Glossa they use Groussa for language, if this is a bastardisation of the former word, when did it take place?

Spartan 01-23-2009 05:03 PM

I think "Glossa" would be the bastrdization of "Groussa", if indeed Tsakonika is the older language.And if indeed Tsakonika is derived from the Dorian dialect of Greek that would make it the older language , I would think??

What do you guys think??

Soldier of Macedon 01-23-2009 11:14 PM

But Glossa is recorded in Ancient Greek texts in that form, is there any evidence of Groussa in ancient texts?

Spartan 01-24-2009 02:26 AM

Not that I know off

osiris 01-24-2009 03:09 AM

this is a fascinating subject and it intrigues and excites my curiosity great post som.

ancinet greek didnt have many sounds ir sh ch zh b

also the natural changes that sometimes occur when a word is adopted by a foreigner, look at what happens when macedonians for example twist english words. so will we ever know how those thracian words really sounded.


a greek talking to a macedonian in english

xhev u finist dzimi

don vorri jimmi everyting is orait

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2009 04:19 AM

[QUOTE=Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas;9989]SoM, check this out:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbinum[/url][/QUOTE]
So what do you make of it Slovak? What we have here is clear evidence of a variant of the word 'Serb' recorded as early as the 2nd century. This would support the notion that the Latin word 'Serv' derives from the noun 'Serb' rather than the opposite.

How do we reconcile this with the works of Porphyrogenitus who claims that the Serbs come from White Serbia north of the Danube, centuries later?

Do we know when the word 'Serv' was first used in Latin to represent a 'Slave' or 'Servant'? Could the name have been inspired from the area where most slaves were taken from (at that point in time) by the Romans, ie; Serbinon?

Delodephius 01-24-2009 04:55 AM

Porphyrogenitus' work is highly controversial. First of all in his 'De Administrando Imperio' in many places makes no distinction between Serbs and Croats on one side and the Avars on the other. Could it be that his Serbs and Croats are in fact Avars?! Another thing is that about the origin of the Croats he presents two opposite stories. It appears that he tried, due to lack of evidence and maybe because of political reasons, to portray Serbs and Croats as late arrivals but he himself couldn't prove this and so his notes remained unsorted. That's right. "De Administrando Imperio" is just notes. His final work never reached us, but we know of it thanks to Mauro Orbini who mentioned it in 1601, ten years before DAI was discovered. But Mauro spoke of a different work of Porphyrogenitus, his final work. He cites in his work chapter 29. of the Emperor's book, but he doesn't call it "De Administrando Imperio" (name added later by historians), but: [B]"De Foedera, iura ac societates imperii Romani"[/B] i.e. "About the alliances, laws and the society of the Roman Empire". This title actually gives answer to many problems one encounters in the DAI, for example why is there no mention of the Bulgarians, the Arabs and the Germans? Because they were not allies of the Empire. But how did Orbini know about this book at all if it was published by Meursius only in 1611 and Orbini "Il regno de gli Slavi" in 1601? Thanks to Arpontahos (I suppose that is how his name is spelled in Latin) about who you won't find a single word in any lexicon of medieval authors, but nonetheless his name is mentioned couple of times. His work was of typical anti-Machiavellian style and it favoured the Church, quoting such anceint sources as Plato, Aristotel and St. Augustus, i.e. very typical for it's time period (renaissance). But this Arpontahos also quotes Porphyrogenitus. And the other interesting note he mentioned is that De Foedera was written in 959 AD not in 949-952 as DAI. Even if De Foedera wasn't the Emperor's last version of the book it certainly was the last since he died in October the very same year.
DAI is an unfinished work. This is true even comparable to Porphyrogenitus' other work De Thematibus which he wrote afterwards. But the most important thing is where did the Emperor get his facts? He certainly didn't get in Constantinople but most likely the same way information was gathered for centuries: the Emperor send a questionnaire to the provinces and the officials there gathered information from the locals. Census were gathered in a similar manner. So, what the Emperor wrote about the origin of the Serbs and Croats was their own story about their origin, in the Croat case the story of the five brothers and two sisters. However, this was most likely a legend coming down from the ancient period or a story the Croats made up to explain their origin, like the Greek mythology. The Emperor could have placed this story to the beginning of the 7th century, to the time of Emperor Heraclius who allegedly allowed them to settle on Roman soil. He perhaps tied this somehow to the Slavic raids across the Danube and the Avar-Roman wars. But where is this mentioned during the actual time of Hercalius? That is what I would like to know.

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2009 05:02 AM

Ptolemy's Geography would be handy, but I can't seem to find the relevant texts pertaining to most of the lands where the Slavic languages are spoken.

[url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/home.html[/url]


If anybody does have access to the incomplete chapters from the above link such as Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, Moesia, etc, do share.

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2009 05:21 AM

[QUOTE="Slovak"]Another thing is that about the origin of the Croats he presents two opposite stories. It appears that he tried, due to lack of evidence and maybe because of political reasons, to portray Serbs and Croats as late arrivals but he himself couldn't prove this and so his notes remained unsorted.[/QUOTE]
I am going to read it again to see where the contradiction is, I have heard about it before. I was not aware that Orbini mentioned the works, is there any other literature regarding his citation and significance, that elaborates why?
[QUOTE]This title actually gives answer to many problems one encounters in the DAI, for example why is there no mention of the Bulgarians, the Arabs and the Germans? Because they were not allies of the Empire.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure about the Germans or Arabs because I haven't read it for a while, but the Bulgarians are definetly mentioned in DAI.

Do we have any texts at all of Arpontahos?

Do we have any texts at all of De Thematibus?

[QUOTE]The Emperor could have placed this story to the beginning of the 7th century, to the time of Emperor Heraclius who allegedly allowed them to settle on Roman soil. He perhaps tied this somehow to the Slavic raids across the Danube and the Avar-Roman wars. But where is this mentioned during the actual time of Hercalius? That is what I would like to know.[/QUOTE]
That sounds very possible. There is no mention of a Slavic mass migration either in DAI.

Delodephius 01-24-2009 05:52 AM

[QUOTE]Do we have any texts at all of Arpontahos?

Do we have any texts at all of De Thematibus?[/QUOTE]
I couldn't find anything of Arpontahos. I don't know if that is the accurate interpretation of his name since the text I've read about him is in Serbian. I think I did find something of him once a long time ago.

De Thematibus, I think that this is the text:
[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=Cx8AAAAAYAAJ&dq=De+Thematibus&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=4gSqrNuKzy&sig=iPQ6rhhrQ8AYk1R6TDpbAba7bnE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA13,M1[/url]
But I couldn't find a translation.

As for Arabs and Germans, I think they are mentioned, but nothing significant.

TerraNova 01-24-2009 10:10 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;10051]


That sounds very possible. There is no mention of a Slavic mass migration either in DAI.[/QUOTE]


I just read in "Περί Θεμάτων" ("De Thematibus"), that emperor Justininan the Rhinotmetos (nose-cut) [685-695 /705-711] allowed to settle "Scythians"(=Slavs) in Strymon's Thema (Struma/Serres region and above) ,and now they inhabit the mountains around instead of Macedonians.

Delodephius 01-24-2009 10:22 AM

How many? You make it sound as if it was hundreds of thousands and that it is somehow so important that it proves that Slavs did migrate to Balkans.

makedonin 01-24-2009 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;9996]

In Tsakonian, which is claimed to be a descendant of Doric, instead of Glossa they use Groussa for language, if this is a bastardisation of the former word, when did it take place?[/QUOTE]

it is Albanian feature the change of the "L" character to "R" character. It is very frequent one with very low rate.

It is noticed in Macedonian, Bulgar in Serb only as isolated feature.

My guess, either it is a local Macedonian change (bastardation) or it is an Albanian one.

makedonin 01-24-2009 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=TerraNova;10074]I just read in "Περί Θεμάτων" ("De Thematibus"), that emperor Justininan the Rhinotmetos (nose-cut) [685-695 /705-711] allowed to settle "Scythians"(=Slavs) in Strymon's Thema (Struma/Serres region and above) ,and now they inhabit the mountains around instead of Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

It is your East-Macedonia region of today:
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg://"]Byzantine Themes[/URL] What happened to those Slavs. How come that they are now pure Greeks ?


And if we go by that line, what happened to those Slavs that settled Thessalonica area. they should have been in the 100 000 of numbers, all according to this Byzantines writers ?


Did the Macedonians left the area of Thessalonica, as you would like to suggest in your post for the supposed Scytians = the Unproven Slavs, that they drove the indegous population ?

What does that makes you ?

Wonna be Greek of Slavic descent ? :rolleyes:

TerraNova 01-24-2009 04:16 PM

Don't blame me..blame his majesty...Porphyrogennetos! :D

makedonin 01-24-2009 04:37 PM

[QUOTE=TerraNova;10094]Don't blame me..blame his majesty...Porphyrogennetos! :D[/QUOTE]

you still did not answer the question.

If we say it is settlement of Slavs, than there was settlement of Slavs in your district of East Macedonia [B]former Strymon Theme, as well in former Theme Tessalonik[/B]i etc. It is in your Territory in your present country borders, you know !

[B]How does this goes with your alleged 4000 years of Greek continuity in Macedonia ???[/B]

Or do you accept your Slavic descent as well.

If so, what is your purpose here disputing and babbling about we being Slavs, when you your self is of Slavic descent ????

Or you don't agree that those Slavs were settled in Strymon and Thessaloniki Theme ???

Explain your self, or stop babbling


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