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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

Epirot 03-30-2011 04:05 PM

[QUOTE=Droog;94511]well no church/mosque/ crazy religion temple will ever be more important than a school/hospital, so that's a waste of money(although the arabian wahhabis probably don't consider it a waste)[/QUOTE]

Well said, Droog! You remind me an old expression: "If you build one religious temple (mosque, church, synagogue or whatever else) you ruin three schools or hospitals". So I become very irritated when some people are trying to compete with buildings of mosques and churches.

P.S: Why some guys here are accusing Albanians for building up mosques along Macedonia. All of mosques are Wahabists foundations, aren't they? So they have nothing to do with Albanians. They can not be either Albanian and Muslim at the same time. At the moment they identify themselves as Muslims they abandon from being Albanian. They are not Albanians!

Onur 03-30-2011 04:54 PM

[QUOTE=Droog;94511]well no church/mosque/ crazy religion temple will ever be more important than a school/hospital, so that's a waste of money[/QUOTE]

Well said Droog. When these medieval minded freaks starts to realize this, then world will be much safer and better place.

Niko777 03-30-2011 04:58 PM

[QUOTE]P.S: Why some guys here are accusing Albanians for building up mosques along Macedonia. All of mosques are Wahabists foundations, aren't they? So they have nothing to do with Albanians. They can not be either Albanian and Muslim at the same time. At the moment they identify themselves as Muslims they abandon from being Albanian. They are not Albanians![/QUOTE]
There is currently an Albanization of Islam taking place in Macedonia. According to a recent article in the Economist, building new mosques is a way for the Albanian population to mark their territory. Also, extreme Islam is just an alternate branch of Albanian nationalism and the quest for a greater Albania (the other branch being pro-west/American). The new mosques are only being built in Albanian populated areas, and on many there are Albanian flags flying. I wouldn't have posted this here if I knew it wasn't related to the Albanization of Macedonia. But it is.

Epirot 03-31-2011 04:25 AM

[QUOTE=Niko777;94523]There is currently an Albanization of Islam taking place in Macedonia. According to a recent article in the Economist, building new mosques is a way for the Albanian population to mark their territory. Also, extreme Islam is just an alternate branch of Albanian nationalism and the quest for a greater Albania (the other branch being pro-west/American). The new mosques are only being built in Albanian populated areas, and on many there are Albanian flags flying. I wouldn't have posted this here if I knew it wasn't related to the Albanization of Macedonia. But it is.[/QUOTE]

What? Are freaking kidding to me? Can you at least give me a satisfactory explanation how can happen 'Albanization' of Islam? I do not know much things about Islam (because like other religions smells like sulfur) but about one thing I'm pretty sure that this religion doesn't fits to the national idea because its nature is determined to surpass the national boundaries, is not? I will look upon it if any Albanian has made ever any claim about the Albanian being of Islam prophets or anything like that. Extreme Islam has nothing to do with Albanian nationalism because they are obviously contrary things. The former claim for a unity of all Islamic community on the behalf of Muhamed's doctrines. The later isn't aligned with any religion (neither Islam nor Christianism) but its primary purpose is to preserve the Albanian identity, culture and national feeling from either assimilation or alienation. The mosque can not mark Albanian territory because Albanians never felt themselves linked to any religion. Our national motto was and still is this one: [B][U]"The religion of the Albanian is Albanism"![/U][/B]

I object your false claim that mosques are being build only in Albanian populated areas. I heard that such mosques were build also in Prilep (Macedonian Muslims).

Voltron 03-31-2011 04:31 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;94590]What? Are freaking kidding to me? Can you at least give me a satisfactory explanation how can happen 'Albanization' of Islam? I do not know much things about Islam (because like other religions smells like sulfur) but about one thing I'm pretty sure that this religion doesn't fits to the national idea because its nature is determined to surpass the national boundaries, is not? I will look upon it if any Albanian has made ever any claim about the Albanian being of Islam prophets or anything like that. Extreme Islam has nothing to do with Albanian nationalism because they are obviously contrary things. The former claim for a unity of all Islamic community on the behalf of Muhamed's doctrines. The later isn't aligned with any religion (neither Islam nor Christianism) but its primary purpose is to preserve the Albanian identity, culture and national feeling from either assimilation or alienation. The mosque can not mark Albanian territory because Albanians never felt themselves linked to any religion. Our national motto was and still is this one: [B][U]"The religion of the Albanian is Albanism"![/U][/B]

I object your false claim that mosques are being build only in Albanian populated areas. I heard that such mosques were build also in Prilep (Macedonian Muslims).[/QUOTE]

This form of Albaniaism was formed under Hoxha's rule. This is something recent.

How would you explain the Arvanties for example ? Religion always played a role and its no secret that the Albanians in Macedonia are the most religous in comparison to Albania or Kosovo.

Risto the Great 03-31-2011 04:48 AM

Epirot, I can't believe you are even saying this. Mosques are quite simply something akin to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia marking their boundary like dogs.

Do you deny Muslims in Macedonia (of various ethnicity) are being pressured to declare as Albanians by the dominant Muslim group (Albanians)?

Mastika 03-31-2011 07:31 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;94517]
P.S: Why some guys here are accusing Albanians for building up mosques along Macedonia. All of mosques are Wahabists foundations, aren't they? So they have nothing to do with Albanians. They can not be either Albanian and Muslim at the same time. At the moment they identify themselves as Muslims they abandon from being Albanian. They are not Albanians![/QUOTE]

Who allows this projects to go ahead? Albanian local government officials.
Who physically erects the mosques? Albanian builders
Who fixes the interior? Albanian tradespersons
Who attends the mosques for prayers? Albanian Muslims
Who is responsible for the upkeep? Local Albanians
Which imam's provide services in the mosque? Albanian Imams.
Which flags fly from the minaret of the mosque? The Albanian flag

In reality these mosques are merely a way of demarcation Macedonia as a form of Albanian propaganda. The Saudi's are merely enabling Albanians to live out their wild fantasies, as it ultimately is spreading Islam.

Epirot 03-31-2011 09:54 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;94591]This form of Albaniaism was formed under Hoxha's rule. This is something recent.
.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. This motto is much earlier than Hoxha's rule. It was held by Albanian intellectuals of second half of XIX century. It is worldwide known that Albanians were always less related with religions. That's why we neglect religious differences among our people.

[QUOTE]

The majority of Albanians today are atheists, implicit or explicit. [COLOR="Red"][B]According to the IRF Report, and other sources, up to 75% of the population in Albania declare no religious affiliation.[/B][/COLOR]

National Renaissance writer, poet and publicist Pashko Vasa

[COLOR="red"][B]The country does not have a history of religious extremism and takes pride in the harmony that has existed across religious traditions and practices. [/B][/COLOR][COLOR="Blue"][B]Religious tolerance in Albania was born of national expediency and a general lack of religious convictions.[/B][/COLOR] [6] This pragmatism continued as a distinctive trait of Albanian society where interreligious marriage has been very common throughout the centuries, in some places even the rule. [COLOR="blue"][B]There is a strong unifying cultural identity, where even Muslims and Christians see themselves as Albanian before anything else. [/B][/COLOR]This has been solidified historically by the common experience of struggling to protect the national culture in the face of various outside conquerors.

Adherence to ancient Albanian pagan beliefs also continued well in the 20th century, particularly in the northern mountain villages, many of which were devoid of churches and mosques. A Northern Albanian intellectual and poet, Pashko Vasa (1825–1892), made the trenchant remark, later co-opted by the totalitarian regime, that [B][COLOR="blue"][U]"Churches and mosques you shall not heed / The religion of Albanians is Albanism" [/U][/COLOR][/B](Albanian: Mos shikoni kisha e xhamia / Feja e shqyptarit ‚sht shqyptaria). Albanian national hero, Skanderbeg, is also misquoted as saying this, though he held a similar view.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]How would you explain the Arvanties for example ?[/QUOTE]

Arvanites consists an another case. Of course they were more aligned (than the rest of Albanians) with Orthodoxism but this was more due to Greek policies to hellenize them. You know that the foundation of "Greek" Kingdom separated Arvanites from the rest of Albanians. Their national feelings was weakened since there were no Albanian schools to promote their culture, history, etc, etc. The fact they still retain their Albanian identity is a strong sign that religion doesn't affected them at all, does it?

[QUOTE]the Albanians in Macedonia are the most religous in comparison to Albania or Kosovo[/QUOTE]

You're partially right. I do accept that Albanians of Macedonia are 'religionised' at a certain degree but we have to ask: how come that? Sociologically is ascertained that poverty, unemployment and bad social conditions arouse religious feelings among disappointed individuals. We have to blame for that mostly our politicians (no matter if they are Albanian, Macedonian, etc) who care only for their personal pockets and let people in poverty.

Epirot 03-31-2011 10:07 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;94593]Epirot, I can't believe you are even saying this. Mosques are quite simply something akin to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia marking their boundary like dogs.
[/QUOTE]

Dogs? Let's keep clean the discussion from hatred and insults. I'm sorry that a moderate Macedonian like you make such blatant offenses not only to me but to all Albanians. This does not differ much from the hatred speech celebrated by most of Greeks, does it? I thought you were entirely different from them but it seems that I've mistaken.

[QUOTE]Do you deny Muslims in Macedonia (of various ethnicity) are being pressured to declare as Albanians by the dominant Muslim group (Albanians)?[/QUOTE]

Before I give any response, let me ask you a question instead: Do you deny that Muslims in Macedonia (of various ethnicity) are being pressured to declare themselves as Muslims by the Wahabists "humanitarian" groups? Arabs (no matter to what religious fraction they belong to) aren't interested to arise any national feeling among Muslims of Macedonia because this doesn't suit to their much-dreamed goal: the "Muslimanization" of all Muslims of Macedonia. The national idea is a fierce enemy in the eyes of Arabs. They are doing the best to prevent people from declaring their nationality/ethnicity. Do you get my point?

Epirot 03-31-2011 10:19 AM

[QUOTE=Mastika;94613]
In reality these mosques are merely a way of demarcation Macedonia as a form of Albanian propaganda. The Saudi's are merely enabling Albanians to live out their wild fantasies, as it ultimately is spreading Islam.[/QUOTE]

How many time should I repeat myself that mosques aren't promoting any sort of 'Albanism' but Muslim doctrines of a worldwide united Muslim community!?

I've never seen so far any imam to make any mention of Illyrian glory or anything like that. Instead they do proclaim Arabian craps about their prophets, etc, etc.

Albanians have nothing to do with the spreading of Muslim fractions in Macedonia. We know that most of Albanians in Macedonia are Muslims by faith but their traditional faith is quite moderate and never celebrated any kind of extremism. The only problem that disturb not only us but even Muslim Albanians is the frequent appearance of radical sects from Middle East.


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