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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

Onur 03-31-2011 10:20 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;94628]
Arvanites consists an another case. Of course they were more aligned (than the rest of Albanians) with Orthodoxism but this was more due to Greek policies to hellenize them. You know that the foundation of "Greek" Kingdom separated Arvanites from the rest of Albanians[/QUOTE]

Don't forget that Greek kingdom of 1820s was just a beginning. Philhellenes`s ultimate plan was expanding in to the Albania, Macedonia, Crete and all other Aegean islands, then Turkey too. Thats why since the formation of Greece in Morea, they constantly expanded their territories `till 1922. They were able to occupy half of Macedonia, all Aegean islands, then they tried but failed to get Turkey and Albania. Also, remember that there is no Albania and no Turkey for them, since you are Epiriot hellenes and we are Ionian and Pontus Greeks to them, just like the people in Macedonia was Macedonian Hellenes!!! So, in that sense, their ultimate aim was to unite all Albanians under the mythical umbrella of Hellenism.

Venizelos simply begged to the British, France and US for Greek expansion in to the "Epirus" at Paris peace conference in 1922 but he failed.

Epirot 03-31-2011 10:34 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;94635]Don't forget that Greek kingdom of 1820s was just a beginning. Philhellenes`s ultimate plan was expanding in to the Albania, Macedonia, Crete and all other Aegean islands, then Turkey too. Thats why since the formation of Greece in Morea, they constantly expanded their territories `till 1922. They were able to occupy half of Macedonia, all Aegean islands, then they tried but failed to get Turkey and Albania. Also, remember that there is no Albania and no Turkey for them, since you are Epiriot hellenes and we are Ionian and Pontus Greeks to them, just like the people in Macedonia was Macedonian Hellenes!!! So, in that sense, their ultimate aim was to unite all Albanians under the mythical umbrella of Hellenism.

Venizelos simply begged to the British, France and US for Greek expansion in to the "Epirus" at Paris peace conference in 1922 but he failed.[/QUOTE]

That's right! If Philhellenes put forward any claim to any territory they automatically find out some 'Hellenic' ingredients to legitimize it. We've been already accustomed with that. By the way, I'll post into respective threads a concise resume pointing out the artificial formation of 'Greek nation'. It has been written from sociological angle and is one of the best analysis I've seen so far. They are Turk sociologists but their methodology and impartiality is brilliant.

makedonche 03-31-2011 06:59 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;94632]Dogs? Let's keep clean the discussion from hatred and insults. I'm sorry that a moderate Macedonian like you make such blatant offenses not only to me but to all Albanians. This does not differ much from the hatred speech celebrated by most of Greeks, does it? I thought you were entirely different from them but it seems that I've mistaken.



Before I give any response, let me ask you a question instead: Do you deny that Muslims in Macedonia (of various ethnicity) are being pressured to declare themselves as Muslims by the Wahabists "humanitarian" groups? Arabs (no matter to what religious fraction they belong to) aren't interested to arise any national feeling among Muslims of Macedonia because this doesn't suit to their much-dreamed goal: the "Muslimanization" of all Muslims of Macedonia. The national idea is a fierce enemy in the eyes of Arabs. They are doing the best to prevent people from declaring their nationality/ethnicity. Do you get my point?[/QUOTE]

Epirot
I think this is an overreaction, RTG was not calling Albanians dogs, he was referring to their flying of Albanian flags from newly erected mosques as "marking their territory", regardless of who is providing the funding and resources to erect these mosques - it appears to me that that is what they are doing. When stuctures appear on the Macedonian horizon then it is quite within reasonable limits to question their construction/approval/purpose of use - don't you think?

Risto the Great 03-31-2011 07:41 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;94632]Dogs? Let's keep clean the discussion from hatred and insults. I'm sorry that a moderate Macedonian like you make such blatant offenses not only to me but to all Albanians. This does not differ much from the hatred speech celebrated by most of Greeks, does it? I thought you were entirely different from them but it seems that I've mistaken. [/QUOTE]Dogs mark out a boundary by pissing. Ethnic Albanians are doing it in Macedonia by building mosques. Macedonians do it by building churches. I did not call ethnic Albanians in Macedonia dogs. Grow up or learn English better.

Far be it from me to call all Albanians as dogs. I have only really known 3 Albanians and they were all very nice people. It has nothing to do with the above observation.


[QUOTE=Epirot;94632]Before I give any response, let me ask you a question instead: Do you deny that Muslims in Macedonia (of various ethnicity) are being pressured to declare themselves as Muslims by the Wahabists "humanitarian" groups? Arabs (no matter to what religious fraction they belong to) aren't interested to arise any national feeling among Muslims of Macedonia because this doesn't suit to their much-dreamed goal: the "Muslimanization" of all Muslims of Macedonia. The national idea is a fierce enemy in the eyes of Arabs. They are doing the best to prevent people from declaring their nationality/ethnicity. Do you get my point?[/QUOTE]I don't get your point even a little bit. It is well known that ethnic Albanians of Macedonia are pressuring non-Albanians to declare as Albanians by citing their religious affiliation as proof of Albanian ethnicity. Don't blame the Arabs for this Epirot. It is simple stuff really that is more than self evident.

I note you never replied to my previous email querying your knowledge of the Framework Agreement and how it defies the "numbers" logic you tried to present.

Epirot 04-02-2011 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;94660]

I don't get your point even a little bit. It is well known that ethnic Albanians of Macedonia are pressuring non-Albanians to declare as Albanians by citing their religious affiliation as proof of Albanian ethnicity. Don't blame the Arabs for this Epirot. It is simple stuff really that is more than self evident.
.[/QUOTE]

I highly suspect that because religious affiliation cannot represent an Albanian identity because the latter is not shaped by religion. As I've explained through my earlier posts, we Albanians do not identify ourselves with any religion. Albanians though Muslims by faith, they neither identified with it nor considered it as a part of their identity. On the contrary, other religions were used in past as means of assimilation of peoples in Macedonia as the renowned Macedonian patriot, K. Misirkov asserted:

[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]If we consider the present state of religious propaganda in Macedonia we will be struck by the fact that in most cases it serves as a means towards national and political ends.[/B][/COLOR] [B][U]Protestantism and Catholicism[/U][/B] in Macedonia have religious aims only because those who propagate these faiths behave with great respect towards even the most insignificant aspects of the various ways of life of the Macedonian nationalities. And so nobody has the right to complain about their activities.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Unfortunately, however, the Orthodox religion[/COLOR][/B] - the oldest, the most widespread, the basic faith of all the nationalities of Macedonia - [B][U]has completely lost sight of its main aim[/U][/B], which is to encourage brotherhood amongst the different nationalities and to ennoble the hearts of the believers. And instead of pursuing these noble aims the Orthodox religion has simply spread discord and envy.[B] It has now become the chief weapon of those who wish to spread purely nationalist and political propaganda. The Orthodox faith in Macedonia has now become so compromised that one can no longer speak of a true Orthodox church, for there are now three churches, and they are not Orthodox but Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian.[/B] Why must this be so? Should not the Church be One, Holy, Episcopal and Apostolic? Yes. The Church should indeed be One and Holy, and not Serbian, Greek or Bulgarian. In Macedonia the Church has been deflected from its main aim, and so the intelligentsia and the common folk of Macedonia have every right to use all powers available to them to purge the Church of her purely nationalist aims and replace them with those which were laid down by the Holy Founder so that the gospel might be preached in all tongues, i.e. all nationalities would come to the faith through their own language.[/QUOTE]

Krste Misirkov analyzed excellently the misuse of religions in Macedonia. What I'm trying to say is that our neighbors (Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece) base their identity exclusively on Orthodoxism or to say in other words, Orthodoxy is a strong component of their 'national' identity. So it's not that wonder if they turned Orthodoxy into a weapon to usurp others lands. We do not base our national identity on any religion so we never used it as a mean of assimilation. It seems that I was quite misunderstood here because I never defend Muslim faith or anything like that. I myself am atheist...or rather I'd prefer to believe on Illyrian gods than Eastern imported religions. But I don't deny that sometimes religions are provided as useful for a better society. I'll quote again Misirkov's statement: [B][I]" Should not the Church be One, Holy, Episcopal and Apostolic? Yes. The Church should indeed be One and Holy, and not Serbian, Greek or Bulgarian".[/I][/B]

[QUOTE]I note you never replied to my previous email querying your knowledge of the Framework Agreement and how it defies the "numbers" logic you tried to present[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I didn't see the last replies on that thread because most of this week I was quite busy with my boring job in library. Of course I'll give my response. Be patient!

Risto the Great 04-02-2011 05:59 PM

Epirot, you simply cannot compare the Albanians of Albania in terms of religious affiliation and its significance with that of the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia. I suspect Kosovo is similar to Macedonia but may sit somewhere in between Albania and Macedonia in relation to this matter.

Belomorec 04-03-2011 05:20 AM

All great and wonderful observations Epirot. Good on you for showing at least one Albanian in the world has half a brain. Or at least a third.

Now admit that Albanians in Macedonia get faaaaaaar more than they deserve.

And give me one good reason why the motherfuckers in the parliament (who don't belong there) shouldn't be expelled from the country for being terrorists?

Epirot 04-03-2011 12:27 PM

[QUOTE=Belomorec;94881] Good on you for showing at least one Albanian in the world has half a brain. Or at least a third.

[/QUOTE]

Do not make such labellings and try to behave in a civilized manner. Saying that Albanians 'have no brain' smell racism...so please spare me from such racist mentality.

[QUOTE]Now admit that Albanians in Macedonia get faaaaaaar more than they deserve.[/QUOTE]

I'd suggest you immediately to read once again our recent exhausting discussions about that matter:

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5357goto=newpost[/url]

[QUOTE]And give me one good reason why the motherfuckers in the parliament (who don't belong there) shouldn't be expelled from the country for being terrorists?[/QUOTE]

I'm really not in the mood to reply with that because you obviously are biased and not realistic. I do not support any Albanian politician in Macedonia for the simple reason that they do not care about people that are allegedly represented by them. All what I've seen is that their personal wealth has no boundary and this irks me so much because people are becoming every time more poor in terms of economical prosperity. Can you at least give me a definition what you mean with 'terrorism' and where do you see it to be celebrated? Thnx

Risto the Great 04-03-2011 03:38 PM

Epirot, we can see terrorism celebrated by the ethnic Albanians of Macedonia by looking at their statues AND leaders no less. But you can see some of that in this thread. When you get a chance, please immerse yourself in the Framework Agreement and let me know your answer to my previous question that you have acknowledged recently.

Niko777 04-03-2011 10:14 PM

[B][COLOR="Red"][U]Scandal: New Mosque in Skopje Commemorating Terrorists[/U][/COLOR][/B]

[B]In Gazi Baba Municipality:[/B]

[IMG]http://static.panoramio.com/photos/medium/50445695.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://static.panoramio.com/photos/medium/50445702.jpg[/IMG]

[U][B]The plaque on the mosque with the names of terrorists[/B][/U]

[IMG]http://static.panoramio.com/photos/medium/50445709.jpg[/IMG]

If a mosque in the USA was built in honor if Osama Bin-Laden, how long would it be until the building is shut down by authorities? It would be shut down instantly. But not in Macedonia where there is no law and people can do whatever they want.


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