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-   -   Ancient Balkan Languages - Proto Slavic Words (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=703)

Soldier of Macedon 03-02-2009 10:05 AM

In Lithuanian a 'Kunigaikshtis' is a Duke, which looks close to Knez, in Ukranian Knyaz is a Prince, as in some other Slavic languages.

How about the word 'Herceg', I have always assumed it is a Magyar word loaned to the Slavic-speakers of Illyria, but the word for Duke in Lithuanian is 'Hercogas' and in Russian it is 'Gertsog'

.

Are these two words (Knez and Herceg) Magyar loans?

Slovak, some assistance mate?

Soldier of Macedon 03-08-2009 09:25 AM

Here are some ancient placenames that were (some no longer) retained in slightly altered forms, in and around Macedonia:

[B]SKUPI SKOPIE

DEBORUS DEBAR

SARDIKA SREDITSA

ASTIBO SHTIP

BEROA - BER[/B]


If anybody knows of other similar example, share them here.

Delodephius 03-08-2009 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;12855]Are these two words (Knez and Herceg) Magyar loans?

Slovak, some assistance mate?[/QUOTE]

[I]Knez [/I]is an old IE word from which also the English king, German knig, generally from Proto-Germanic kuningaz, Latvian ķēniņš, Persian kian, etc.
The word [I]herceg [/I]is borrowed from German Herzog meaning "duke". It comes from 'Heer zog' ('army'+'lead').

Soldier of Macedon 05-25-2009 04:20 AM

Something about the Acheron in Epirus.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron[/url]

[QUOTE]The lake called Acherousia and the river still called Acheron with the nearby ruins of the Necromanteion are found near Parga on the mainland opposite Corfu.

The [B][U]Acheron was sometimes referred to as a lake or swamp[/U][/B] in Greek literature, as in Aristophanes' The Frogs and Euripides' Alcestis.[/QUOTE]

In Macedonian the word for lake is 'Ezero', obviously still close to the Slavonic and Illyrian variants. In Greek the word for lake is Limni (λίμνη), likely to be unrelated to the following set of words.

[B]Achero[/B]n
[B]Oseria[/B]tes (Lake, Illyrian)
[B]Ozero[/B] (Lake, Slavonic)

A Centem -> Satem example? Slovak (and others), give us your thoughts.

Sovius 06-07-2009 08:58 AM

I’ll take a shot at it.

The ‘ah-k’ and ‘oh-z’ articulations are mechanically similar, as with ‘oh-n’ and ‘oh’. ‘ah’ is a relaxation of ‘oh’ and the ‘k’ sound is what naturally occurs if the pressure required for producing ‘oh’ is reduced to the level of ‘ah’ and the transition to the deflection of the tongue off the top part of the mouth is sped up and the tongue is allowed to glance off the roof of the mouth more forcefully due to the fact that less energy is needed to produce the initial segment of the combination, creating more surface contact to finish off the transition from ‘ah’ to ‘k’. The pronunciation of ‘oak’ will yield an intermediary position for the ‘k’ articulation that demonstrates its similarity to ‘z’ that’s not evident when simply listening to both sounds or looking at both symbolic combinations.

The Esera river that flows from a lake in the Ribagorza (riba gora) region of Aragon, Spain represents a transformation of ‘oh’ into ‘eh’. ‘eh’, of course, is ‘oh’ drawn in a bit, instead of being forced out. Speeding up the production of ozero would produce this transformation. They say the fishing has been quite good there since the early Neolithic Period. The similarity between Aragon and Acheron is either a complete coincidence or something that needs to be researched further.

Are there any more toponyms from the specific region where Acheron is found that either reflect or appear to reflect pre-existing linguistic characteristics that can be independently supported in other regions of Europe? Are there other creole transformations that reflect similar paths of change that can be used to substantiate the relevance of these observations?

Po-drum 06-08-2009 04:08 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;17539]
In Macedonian the word for lake is 'Ezero', obviously still close to the Slavonic and Illyrian variants. In Greek the word for lake is Limni (λίμνη), likely to be unrelated to the following set of words.

[B][U]Acheron[/U][/B]

A Centem -> Satem example? Slovak (and others), give us your thoughts.[/QUOTE]

This [B]Ach[/B]e[B]ro[/B]n just too much reminds me and obviously is connected with [B]Ohri[/B]d....
Maybe finnaly this is the right explanation of etimology for the name of this macedonian city..

Pelister 06-09-2009 01:20 AM

Here is something very relevent to this topic. (I posted this point on another forum).

Here is what Victor Friedman had to say about Greek censorship of archeological finds of ancient Thracian origin, which are sitting in the archives of Greece under lock and guard.


[quote]
[B]They did. The inscriptions are in Greek script, but the words are Thracian. And the inscriptions are sitting in Greece, gathering dust. They know they’re there, but no one’s going to work on them because the language is not Greek. So they’re not going to let anyone see them. I have this from a colleague of mine who is a classicist and interested in the
subject.[/B] [/quote]


Source: [url]http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/st[/url] ... st_42.html

Soldier of Macedon 06-11-2009 07:42 PM

Thanks for that Pelister, it would be great if those thieving bastards reveal what has been found in the modern Greek state. What are they hiding? Why are they hiding it? Macedonia DOES NOT hide their archaeological finds, regardless of what language the inscription is in, but these measly monkeys in the Greek state who proclaim to be scholars, desperately cling to their lock and key, idiots. May some decent Greek finally come to the forefront and expose the colour of Greek history.

Pelister 06-12-2009 05:18 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;18373]Thanks for that Pelister, it would be great if those thieving bastards reveal what has been found in the modern Greek state. What are they hiding? Why are they hiding it? Macedonia DOES NOT hide their archaeological finds, regardless of what language the inscription is in, but these measly monkeys in the Greek state who proclaim to be scholars, desperately cling to their lock and key, idiots. May some decent Greek finally come to the forefront and expose the colour of Greek history.[/QUOTE]

I am getting it from a number of sources now that the Greeks are hiding what they have or that Western historians are not allowed access to them.

If it was just one person saying it, it probably wouldn't be believed but this is just another person giving evidence that the Greeks are hiding something.

Honestly SoM, if I had the money I would pay a Greek historian to research them, or at least persuade him to try, or perhaps a Western historian to try again.

Soldier of Macedon 06-13-2009 12:34 AM

Here is a part of the following Indopedia (similar to Wiki) article concerning the Balkan Linguistic Union.

[url]http://www.indopedia.org/Balkan_linguistic_union.html[/url]
[QUOTE][B]Latin "mesa"[/B] → Romanian: "masă" → Bulgarian/Macedonian: "маса" ("masa") meaning table
[B]Thracian or Illyrian[/B] → Albanian: [B]"magar"[/B] ↔ Romanian "măgar" ↔ Bulgarian "магаре" ("magare") meaning donkey
[B]Slavic[/B] → Bulgarian: ливада ([B]"livada"[/B]) → Albanian: "livadhe" ↔ Romanian "livadă" ↔ Greek: "λιβάδι" meaning meadow[/QUOTE]

Livada is a Macedonian word which the Bulgars adopted some time during or after their abandonment of Turkic and adoption of Slavonic as the official language of their people. Another word that is shared by Macedonians and Bulgars is Sugare (сугаре), which is supposed to mean the youngest of a sheep flock, and hence also used as a nickname for the youngest member of a family (at least in Macedonian). As a word in reference to a farm animal, it is likely to be related to the word for donkey, Magare (магаре), a Thraco-Illyrian word. I can't find anything on google that shows Albanians and Romanians using Sugare (сугаре), so how could Magare (магаре) be their word? Hard to believe, unless of course it can be demonstrated that they do use the word.

Pelister 06-19-2009 04:19 AM

I think I found an origin for the word "Shiptar".

I read that in the near Eastern languages of the ancient world the term "Sippar" meant 'bird'.

The term and its meaning has Eastern origins. I don't believe its a balkan word so its a bit off the topic.

Soldier of Macedon 07-03-2009 10:52 PM

[QUOTE=Pelister;18627]I think I found an origin for the word "Shiptar".

I read that in the near Eastern languages of the ancient world the term "Sippar" meant 'bird'.

The term and its meaning has Eastern origins. I don't believe its a balkan word so its a bit off the topic.[/QUOTE]
A little :offtopic: .....but indirectly related nevetheless, as it retorts against an (more than likely) inaccurate assumption about many of the words in the modern Albanian language. So let's discuss...:21:

Interesting post Pelister, after reading it, I did a little search. Check the below:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippar[/url]
[QUOTE][B][U]Sippar[/U][/B] (Sumerian Zimbir "[B][U]bird city[/U][/B]", modern Tell Abu Habbah, Iraq), was an ancient Sumerian and later Babylonian city on the east bank of the Euphrates, some 60 km north of Babylon.[/QUOTE]

[B]Shqipe[/B] (Eagle - in Albanian)
[B]Shqiptar[/B] (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
[B]Sippar[/B] (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location)

Needless to say, an eagle is a type of bird, hence there are some immediate links that can be established. I have often highlighted the similarity between some important Albanian words and how they correspond with Iranian words, the Sumerian language was arguably an Indo-European tongue and its closest relative is more than likely Iranian.

Pelister 07-05-2009 01:30 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19205]A little :offtopic: .....but indirectly related nevetheless, as it retorts against an (more than likely) inaccurate assumption about many of the words in the modern Albanian language. So let's discuss...:21:

Interesting post Pelister, after reading it, I did a little search. Check the below:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippar[/url]


[B]Shqipe[/B] (Eagle - in Albanian)
[B]Shqiptar[/B] (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
[B]Sippar[/B] (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location)

Needless to say, an eagle is a type of bird, hence there are some immediate links that can be established. I have often highlighted the similarity between some important Albanian words and how they correspond with Iranian words, the Sumerian language was arguably an Indo-European tongue and its closest relative is more than likely Iranian.[/QUOTE]

Thanks SoM. I was thinking along the same lines too. I think its a pretty close connection. I suppose now we can get back to the thread.

This smilie of Osama rocks. :osama:

Soldier of Macedon 07-05-2009 01:50 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;19231]Thanks SoM. I was thinking along the same lines too. I think its a pretty close connection. I suppose now we can get back to the thread.

This smilie of Osama rocks. :osama:[/QUOTE]
No problem, I have quite a bit of information on the modern Albanians and their origins, a new thread is calling:40:

Soldier of Macedon 07-16-2009 07:43 AM

The word Karpa (meaning rock in Macedonian) is interesting. The Albanians are the only others that apparently use the word, although it doesn't appear on googletranslate at all, instead there is 'Gur' (meaning stone in Albanian). I will have to check the dictionaries and see if it is present.

The name of the Macedonian fighter from the 17th century, Karposh, comes from this word. Interesting to note also is the name of the Carpathian mountains, which apparently means the same thing. See:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains[/url]
[QUOTE]The name 'Karpetes' may ultimately be from the Proto Indo-European root *sker-/*ker-, from which comes the [B]Albanian word karp (rock)[/B], and Czech word skla (rock, cliff). perhaps by [B]Dacian cognate which meant 'mountain,' rock, or rugged[/B] (cf. Old Norse harfr "harrow", Middle Low German shcarf "potsherd", Lithuanian kar~pas "cut, hack, notch", Latvian crpt "to shear, clip"). [B]Archaic Polish word karpa meant "rugged irregularities, underwater obstacles/rocks, rugged roots or trunks".[/B] The more common word skarpa is sharp cliff or other vertical terrain. Otherwise, the name may instead come from IE *kwerp "to turn", akin to Old English hweorfan "to turn, change" and Greek karps "wrist", perhaps referring to the way the mountain range bends or veers in an L-shape.[/QUOTE]

Any thoughts?

Risto the Great 07-16-2009 08:34 AM

I have no idea, but I think I know where my Scarpa hiking boots come from now though.

Soldier of Macedon 07-16-2009 08:45 AM

Are you aware of the word?

Risto the Great 07-16-2009 07:09 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19694]Are you aware of the word?[/QUOTE]
Sorry mate ... just "kamen" for me ... but I am peasant stock.

Soldier of Macedon 07-16-2009 08:00 PM

'Kamen' is definetly more common, I think the northern and north-east dialects use 'Karpa' more often.

Pelister 07-16-2009 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19694]Are you aware of the word?[/QUOTE]

I am aware of it. According to Stoyan Privichevich, the word derives from Greek - meaning 'strong' or something like that. I don't have the reference with me right now.

It seems that it is used in other Slavic languages.

Look at these possible cognates

Skala (ladder, steep cliff, climb)
Korab (bare rocky mountain)

makedonin 07-17-2009 04:19 AM

I know both kamen and karpa. Although for me they differ in the size.

Kamen is mostly what you can put in a hand or lift it with both.

Karpa is used for Rocks that are big and cant be moved by one man.

Karpa is used instead of saying Big Stone > Golem Kamen > Rock


Kamen > stone
Karpa > rock

Soldier of Macedon 07-17-2009 01:02 PM

Agree Makedonin.

I just checked a standard Albanian-English dictionary (Ramazan Hysa, Hippocrene Books, New York, 2003) that has over 23,000 entries and is based on the accepted use of the language in Albania and Kosovo. There is no sign of the word 'Karpa' anywhere.

On the other hand, check the below item from a Thracian glossary:
[QUOTE][url]http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm[/url]
[B][I].........kapas ‘hill, slope’ [Latv. kapa, kape ‘long mountain strip, dune, slope’, Lith. kopa ‘and hill, dune’].[/I][/B][/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 01-24-2010 01:00 AM

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4526/thrlangcf5.gif[/IMG][/URL]


Several Thracian placenames have the suffix of 'para', such as Beripara, Tranupara, Bazopara, Bisupara, etc, which is assumed to indicate a 'town' or 'village'.
[QUOTE][PHP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language[/PHP]
-- [B]para, pera, peron -- "town"[/B] -- Old Prussian pera "group" peroni "parish, community" --[/QUOTE]

Given the relation shared between Thracian and Balto-Slavic on the one hand, and Balto-Slavic with Sanskrit on the other, it is more than likely that 'para' is a cognate word for Sanskrit 'puram' which means 'city' or 'fortress', as in the name of Singapore (Lions City);
[QUOTE][PHP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore[/PHP]
The English language name Singapore comes from Malay Singapura, "Lion-city", but it is possible that one element of its name had a more distant original source.[20] [B]Pura comes from Sanskrit puram (पुरम्), "city, fortress"[/B], and is related to Greek polis (πόλις), "citadel, city".[/QUOTE]

I think inspecting the similarities with Sanskrit might prove to be a very worthwhile exercise.

Serdarot 02-14-2010 12:37 PM

dont know if you already mentioned it

RMBA = Raboti, rabota

i think it can be added to the Unique Macedonian Words without problem

even the vulgarians dont have it (forgot to steal it :))

Serdarot 02-14-2010 12:39 PM

[QUOTE=makedonin;19753]I know both kamen and karpa. Although for me they differ in the size.

Kamen is mostly what you can put in a hand or lift it with both.

Karpa is used for Rocks that are big and cant be moved by one man.

Karpa is used instead of saying Big Stone > Golem Kamen > Rock


Kamen > stone
Karpa > rock[/QUOTE]

a spila? :)

Po-drum 02-14-2010 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=Serdarot;37785]dont know if you already mentioned it

RMBA = Raboti, rabota

i think it can be added to the Unique Macedonian Words without problem

even the vulgarians dont have it (forgot to steal it :))[/QUOTE]

My favorite is AKA. Not bulgarian [URL="http://www.google.bg/search?hl=bg&q=%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0&btnG=%D0%A2%D1%8A%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5&meta=&aq=f&oq="]AKA[/URL] with it's vulgar meaning, but macedonian [URL="http://www.google.mk/#hl=mk&q=%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B2&fp=6d57f1c58d27ee49"]AKA[/URL].
Many peoples think that the word AKTIVEN, AKTIVNOST are derived from ACTION. When we check for the etymology of word action we will see it origins from latin "[URL="http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=actio+etymology&aq=f&aqi=g-sx1&oq=actio+etymology&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8"]actio[/URL]". Probably that's the truth how this words have arrived to us. Or half of the truth.
Another half I think we should seek in this old original form preserved in our macedonian language. AKA in everyday speech means "to do" or "to go" (one of the most important activities in ancient times), same like the latin word.
So maybe the principle of "action-reaction" now means more "macedonian" to you :). If not, then we should explain the second part, namely "reaction" that we find in macedonian language under the form VRAKJA (враќа) which means movement in opposite of going to. It consists of the preposition V + REAKA.
I don't know if this is word from ancient balkan languages or remnant from the times of roman slavery but certainly there is more logics to think that it's here before the times of famous "migration".

Serdarot 02-14-2010 05:21 PM

kaj bese be sinko, kaj akashe? (kaj shetase)

kaj ke odis? - eve ke odam da akam (da rabotam, da rbam)


Mitreeeeeee

a?

aknal ta puknal :clap: (aknal - akni = udri, tresni)

more ke mu go donesam jas nemu AKot (AKalot, Aklo)

a na vulgarite ko ke mu ja aknam edna... poso nemat akal

a jas, [B]demek[/B] [B]bagji[/B] nashki dijalekti znaeh da [B]lafam[/B], ke treba pokje da ve druzam na vaa tema :)

TheNikoWhiteIch 05-30-2015 10:06 AM

I saw on palaeolexicon.com that one Thracian word for mountain was "carpatis." Really interesting how similar it is to the name Carpathian (mountains). Perhaps it has a Thracian etymology.

TheNikoWhiteIch 06-02-2015 03:25 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;12003]How about the words [B]KANDISA[/B] and [B]BENDISA[/B], does anybody else here use them, and if so, what do they mean to you?

The word Bendisa is close Bendis, the name of an ancient Thracian goddess of the moon. The ancient Greeks identified her with Artemis.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendis[/url]



Thracians and Phrygians = Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

Here's what I found on Wikipedia about Bendis:

[QUOTE]Bendis was a Thracian goddess of the moon and the hunt[1] whom the Greeks identified with Artemis. She was a huntress, like Artemis[/QUOTE]

I believe that in some Baltic language (presently, I cannot confirm which one) the term "bendi" exists meaning "to butcher." I think this is a closer fit for Bendis, as she was the goddess of the hunt.

TheNikoWhiteIch 06-02-2015 03:30 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;12148]Shtipka is a peg in my dialect, like when you hang your clothes up.

[B]Aren and Arno are used extensively by all people from Bitola[/B], and I am sure among most other Macedonians. Jabolko or Jaboko (depending on the context and laziness, lol), Sega or Sea (depending on the context), Kukja only in my neck of the woods.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Kostur dialect is one of the most interesting and archaic-sounding of all Macedonian dialects.[/QUOTE]

Arno, aren = good, well

Here's something interesting though: Homer used the word "Άρειον ('Areion)" to mean things like "Better, worthier, stronger, in better condition, [I]good[/I]." Maybe there's something there? ;)

Nikolaj 06-02-2015 10:20 PM

I can confirm I use aren and arno (Bitolchen), I did not know there were other variants of this word though in other regions, what are they?

George S. 06-03-2015 06:18 PM

How do you know they are ancient Macedonian ??

TheNikoWhiteIch 06-10-2015 02:52 PM

[QUOTE=George S.;160570]How do you know they are ancient Macedonian ??[/QUOTE]

Lol was that meant for a different thread George? ;)

Carlin 11-19-2020 12:01 AM

In "Essay on the Close Affinity of the Slavo-Russian Language with Greek" (1828), Konstantinos Oikonomos mentions how the ancient Macedonians always used the letter B in place of F, whence we get the Macedonian Slavic words běgu (escape) from phegō, and boyu (fight) from phobō.

Amphipolis 11-19-2020 01:52 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;184179]In "Essay on the Close Affinity of the Slavo-Russian Language with Greek" (1828), Konstantinos Oikonomos mentions how the ancient Macedonians always used the letter B in place of F, whence we get the Macedonian Slavic words běgu (escape) from phegō, and boyu (fight) from phobō.[/QUOTE]

Actually, pheugo means to leave, to depart. phobeo means to scare.


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