Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Soldier of Macedon]

The story has many gaps, but it might just be a glorified version of the truth. The best way to determine Albanian origins is to study the Albanian language and figure out how it came to be. At the moment, nationalism and politics has closed some doors worthy of exploration, that is why each time the origin of a word hasn't yet been deciphered it is considered 'Illyrian', a very un-scientific process.

[Valmir]

Many of the Macedonian or Slavonic loans in Albanian appear to be in relation to verbs. Here is a list of some words that are likely loans:

English-Albanian-Macedonian
Pick - Zgjedh - Zgodi or Godi
Ready - Gati - Gotov
Queue - Radhe - Red
Record - Shenim - Snima
Delete - Prish - Brishi
Walk - Shetitje - Shetaj
Run - Tirazh - Trcha
Row - Vozit - Vozi (ride)
Kick = Goditje; Godi or Pogodi (pelt)

Male - Mashkull - Mashko

Nothing - Hich - Ich
Stream - Rreke - Reka (river)
Fire - Zjarr - Zhar

Many Wrong things there!

For exemple:
English - Albanian
pick - MARR not zgjedh
ready - GATI but in Macedonian Gotov means END or Finish and not Ready!
Queue - Radhe - But in Macedonian it is дното not Red!
Record - (Shenim) is like Writing and not Record!
Delete - Fshi and not Prish! (Prish means Destroy)
Walk - EC and not Shetitje!
Run - Vrapon and not Tirazh(I dont understand what is Tirazh)
Row - RRESHT! not Vozit.
Kick - Shkelm!


There are similar words beetwen Albanian language and Slavic language but these similarities can be found only at Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia and not at Albanians from Albania,And all this because of assimilation that happend under Serbian and Macedonian Regime!

[Valmir]

Pledge/Word - Besa - Beseda (OCS)
Oath - Betim - Veti
Oral - Gojor - Govor
Spoke - Rreze - Reche
Custom - Zakon - Zakon (law)
Fun - Zbavites - Zabava

Pledge in Albanian is PENG, Besa is completly something else!
Betim - Veti I can't see any similar thing here!
Gojor - Govor - There are no similarities here,Goj - Mouth! and Gov something else idk what....
Spoke - FOLA,FLAS and not Rreze!
In Albanian RREZE means Beam!
Custom - In Albanian is DOKE or ADET!, Zakon can be found at Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia.
Fun - in Albanian is QEJF!
Zbavitese means something that is Funny.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Many Wrong things there!

I don't think so. Perhaps the semantical meaning of some aren't the same, but that doesn't mean they aren't loanwords. By the way, all of the words were obtained from a dictionary written by one of your people.

There are similar words beetwen Albanian language and Slavic language but these similarities can be found only at Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia and not at Albanians from Albania.....

Only in Kosovo and Macedonia? You don't know much about your people and language.

And all this because of assimilation that happend under Serbian and Macedonian Regime!

Mate, don't push your garbage agenda here, instead, try accepting the truth.

[Valmir]

I don't think so. Perhaps the semantical meaning of some aren't the same, but that doesn't mean they aren't loanwords. By the way, all of the words were obtained from a dictionary written by one of your people.

Not semantical meaning but Every singel verb that you got for example had completly other meaning!

Only in Kosovo and Macedonia? You don't know much about your people and language.

Only at "ALBANIANS FROM" Kosovo and Macedonia you can find words like Zakon or Vozit! And especially at Older Generation (60-70 years old ppls)
The new generations speak clear Albanian because they are learning in Albanian schools!

Mate, don't push your garbage agenda here, instead, try accepting the truth.

Which truth?
Because im not seeing any Conclusion from Macedonians for Albanians!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't think you know much about your language, you're just another one of these deluded internet Albanians who parrot "pure" Illyrians at every turn, and try to dispute any logical argument that doesn't suit their agenda with some re-interpreted fiction. To be honest, some of your sentences are near incoherent. What did you mean with your last line? What conclusions are you talking about? Try reading this whole thread from the beginning, you will see that some of your silly suggestions have already been addressed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have also seen a connection proposed to the word for 'sword' in Albanian, which I will just highlight that, from the dictionaries I have seen, it is not "shpete" in Albanian, but "shpate". It is an interesting example, and it does seem possible. However, let's look at some other similarly formed words to compare. The word "shpate" looks very close to the English word 'spade', and if we look at the Albanian word for 'spade', it is a borrowing from either Macedonian, Serbian or another related language (as most Slavic langauges have a similar word for spade or shovel):

Lopata (Macedonian)
Lopate (Albanian for spade)
Shpate (Albanian for sword)

Important also is the fact that items that resemble a 'spade' have been used as weapons. If 'shpate' is an Albanian word, yet looks similar to and shares the same word ending as 'lopate', which is not an Albanian word (by origin), then how did 'shpate' come about?

Here is some more information regarding the word 'shpate':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha

The word comes from the Latin spatha,[1] which derives from Greek σπάθη (spįthē), "any broad blade, of wood or metal" but also "broad blade of a sword".[2]

The Greek word σπάθη was used in the middle Archaic period for various types of Iron Age swords. The word is not Homeric, but is mentioned in the works of Alcaeus of Mytilene (6th century BC) [3] and Theophrastus (4th century BC).[4]

It is likely that spatha is the romanization of the Doric Greek *σπάθα (spįthā), considering the Doric acc. plural "σπάθας" (spįthās).[5] The word survives in Modern Greek as σπάθη, fem. and σπαθί, neut. The Latin word became the French épée, Catalan espasa, Portuguese and Spanish espada, Italian spada, Romanian spadă and Albanian shpata, all meaning "sword". The English word spatula is from Latin spat(h)ula, the diminutive of spatha. English spade, from Old English spadu, spędu fem., is the Germanic cognate, from a Common Germanic *spadō, ultimately from a PIE stem *sph2-dh-.

The spatha was introduced to the Roman Army in the early imperial period by Celtic cavalry auxiliaries who continued to wear their Celtic long swords, with blade lengths of 60 to 85 cm, in Roman service. The earlier gladius type was gradually replaced by the spatha over the period of the late 2nd to the 3rd century CE. From the early 3rd century CE, legionaries and cavalrymen began to wear the sword on the left side, perhaps because of the abandonment of the scutum and the adoption of the longer spatha.[6]

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have merged some related threads into the one, just in case some people were wondering where they disappeared to.

Something with regard to the Venetian influence in Albania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

Venetian Albania (Italian: Albania Veneta) was the name for the possessions of the Venetian Republic in southern Dalmatia that existed from 1420 to 1797. It originally covered the coastal area of what is now northern Albania and the coast of Montenegro, but the Albanian and southern Montenegrin parts were lost to the Ottomans in 1571.[1]

The word "Venetian" in the name of the region was used to differentiate the area from the Ottoman Albania, an area stretching from Kosovo to southern Albania.[2]

Venetian Albania were Venetian possessions that stretched from the southern borders of the Republic of Ragusa to Durrės in coastal Albania. The Venetian territories usually reached only 20 km from the Adriatic Sea. After 1573 the southern limit was moved to the village of Kufin near Budva, because of the Ottoman conquests of Bar, Ulcinj, Shkodėr, and Durrės. The Venetian territory was then centered around the area of the Bay of Kotor, and included the towns of Kotor, Risan, Perast, Tivat, Herceg Novi, Budva, and Sutomore.

Venice periodically controlled the small southern Dalmatian villages around in the 10th century, but did not permanently assume control until 1420. The Venetians assimilated the Dalmatian language into the Venetian dialect quickly. The Venetian territories around Kotor lasted from 1420 to 1797 and were called Venetian Albania, a province of the Venetian Republic.[3]

In the early years of the Renaissance the territories under Venetian control included areas from actual coastal Montenegro to northern Albania until Durrės: Venetians retained this city after a siege by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II in 1466 but it fell to Ottoman forces in 1501.

In those years Venetian Albania was relatively rich (by Balkan standards) and the area around the city of Cattaro enjoyed a huge cultural and artistic development.

When the Ottoman Empire started to conquer the Balkans in 15th century, the population of Christian Slavs in Dalmatia increased greatly. As a consequence of this, by the end of 17th century the Romance speaking population of the historical Venetian Albania was a minority, according to Oscar Randi in his book Dalmazia etnica, incontri e fusioni.[4]

After the French Republic conquered and dissolved the Venetian Republic in 1797, the area of Venetian Albania became part of the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy,[5] and then in 1809 it was included in the French Illyrian Provinces, and then the Illyrian Provinces. In 1814 it was included in the Austrian Empire.

Albanians lived in the south of the Venetian Albania around Ulcigno and Durazzo. The area around Cattaro was populated by Croats and Romance-speakers and was fully Catholic.[6] Many klans from Albania Veneta had immigrated to Italy, Korfu and Constantinople: Klanlarets in Istanbul is an example of Venetian Albanians today.

According to the Italian historian Luigi Paulucci the population of the Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Venetian Republic, was mainly Venetian (Italian) speaking in the urban areas (Kotor, Perast, Budva, ecc..) around the Bay of Kotor. But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian-speaking, after the beginning of the eighteenth century. Furthermore, near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slav speaking.

There have been notable Italian writers in the 15th to the 18th century who originated from Venetian Albania, notably Giovanni Bona Boliris, Cristoforo Ivanovich and Ludovico Pasquali.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is a good article relating to plant names used by Albanians.

http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1998DendronEngl.pdf

The often expressed hypothesis that loanwords predominate for lowland, especially deciduous trees whereas native terms predominate for highland, especially coniferous trees cannot be confirmed by the present study to any measurable extent. While Latin terms are indeed common for lowland trees, Slavic loans are noticeably common for highland trees, in particular for pines. Remarkable is also the fact that Turkish loans are particularly common for fruit trees, an indication that some of them may have been imported during the centuries of Ottoman occupation. All that can be stated statistically is that, broadly speaking, about half the major Albanian terms for trees and shrubs are of foreign origin (principally Latin, Slavic, Turkish and Greek) and the other half are of native origin. This is yet another indication of the exceptionally strong influence foreign languages and cultures, in particular Latin and Slavic, have exercised upon the historical development of the Albanian lexicon and the Albanian language in general.

[George S.]

Som if i can ask you what is your view of the albanians coming from asia in 6/7 century.There was a place of albania there.What is your view on this?

[Soldier of Macedon]

George, I think modern Albanians have ancestors from several places. To be honest, I am still in the process of forming a more definitive opinion on this topic. Looking at their language, they could have began as a remnant Latin-speaking people akin to Romanians and/or Vlachs (or perhaps Gallo-Romance or even Iberian-Romance), but went through different linguistic changes and influences over the course of history. This may explain why they have incorporated some ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan words in their vocabulary during the Roman period.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is something about the Albanian language from wikipedia:

Latin element of the Albanian languageJernej Kopitar (1829) was the first to note Latin's influence on Albanian and claimed "the Latin loanwords in the Albanian language had the pronunciation of the time of Emperor Augustus".[8] Kopitar gave examples such as Albanian "qiqer" from Latin cicer, "qytet" from civitas, "peshk" from piscis, and "shėngjetė" from sagitta. The hard pronunciations of Latin ‹c› and ‹g› are retained as palatal and velar stops in the Albanian loanwords. Gustav Meyer (1888)[9] and Wilhelm Meyer-Lübke (1914)[10] later corroborated this.

Eqrem Ēabej also noticed, among other things, the archaic Latin elements in Albanian:[11]

1.Latin /au/ becomes Albanian /a/ in the earliest borrowings: aurum → "ar", gaudium → "gas", laurus → "lar". But Latin /au/ is retained in later borrowings: causa → "kafshė", laud → "lavd".
2.Latin /ō/ becomes Albanian /e/ in the oldest Latin borrowings: pōmum → "pemė", hōra → "herė". An analogous mutation occurred from Proto-Indo-European to Albanian; PIE *nōs became Albanian "ne", PIE *ōkt- became Albanian "tetė" etc.
3.Latin unstressed internal syllable becomes lost in Albanian: cubitus → "kut", medicus → "mjek", padul → "pyll". An analogous mutation occurred from Proto-Indo-European to Albanian. In contrast, in later Latin borrowings, the internal syllable is retained: paganus → "i pėganė"/"i pėgėrė", plaga → "plagė" etc.
4.Latin /tj/, /dj/, /kj/ palatalized to Albanian /s/, /z/, /c/: vitius → "ves", ratio → "(a)rėsye", radius → "rreze", facies → "faqe", socius → "shoq" etc.
Haralambie Mihăescu demonstrated that

some 85 Latin words have survived in Albanian but not in any Romance language. A few examples include bubulcus → bujk, hibernalia → mėrrajė, sarcinarius → shelqėror , trifurcus → tėrfurk, accipiter → qift, *musconea → mushkonjė, chersydrus → kulshedėr, spleneticum → shpnetkė/shpretkė, solanum → shullг/shullė.[12]
151 Albanian words of Latin origin cannot be found in Romanian. A few examples include Albanian mik from Latin amicus, anmik or armik from inimicus, bekoj from benedicere, qelq from calix (calicis), kėshtjellė from castellum, qind from centum, gjel from gallus, gjymtyrė from iunctЇra, mjek from medicus, rjetė or rrjetė from rete, shėrbej from servire, shpėrej or shpresoj from sperare, vullnet from voluntas (voluntatis).[13]
some Albanian church terminology have phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin. A few examples include Albanian lterll from Latin altare, engjėll from angelus, bekoj from benedicere, i krishtenė or i krishterė from christianus, kryq from crux (crucis), klishė or kishė from ecclesia, ipeshkv from episcopus, ungjill from evangelium, mallkoj from maledicere, meshė from missa, munėg or murg from monacus, i pėganė or i pėgėrė from paganus.[14]
Other authors[15] have detected Latin loanwords in Albanian with an ancient sound pattern from the first century B.C., for example, Albanian qingėlė from Latin cingula and Albanian vjetėr from Latin vetus/veteris. The Romance languages inherited these words from Vulgar Latin: Vulgar *cingla became N. Romanian chinga meaning 'belly band, saddle girth' and Vulgar veteran became N. Romanian batrān meaning 'old'.

The center of Albanian settlement remained the Mat River. In 1079 AD they are recorded farther south in the valley of the Shkumbin river.[18] The Shkumbin, a seasonal stream that lay near the old Via Egnatia, is approximately the boundary of the primary dialect division for Albanian, Tosk-Gheg. The characteristics of Tosk and Geg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans[19] [20] [6] which means that in that period (5th to 6th century AD) Albanians were occupying pretty much the same area around Shkumbin river, which straddled the Jirecek line.[21] [16]

References to the existence of Albanian as a distinct language survive from the 14th century, but they failed to cite specific words. The oldest surviving documents written in Albanian are the "Formula e Pagėzimit" (Baptismal formula), "Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spertit Senit." (I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durrės in 1462 in the Gheg dialect, and some New Testament verses from that period.

The oldest known Albanian printed book, Meshari or missal, was written in 1555 by Gjon Buzuku, a Roman Catholic cleric. In 1635, Frang Bardhi wrote the first Latin-Albanian dictionary. The first Albanian school is believed to have been opened by Franciscans in 1638 in Pdhanė.

Given that the language is first recorded in the 15th century, I would like to know how they came to the conclusion that the Tosk and Gheg dialects were already defined as seperate by the 6th century. There are some links to certain historians, but nothing goes into detail.

[Carlin]

Are Albanians of Mardaite origin?

I would like all to consider the following arguments for Albanians being of Mardaite origin.

This theory would more or less pose serious problems for the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory; and it would also explain several "inconsistencies" simultaneously, such as:
1) The presence of Slavs and Slavic toponyms in traditional Albanian lands (which predate Albanian presence by several centuries);
2) Late appearance and mention of Albanians in historical documents (i.e. in various Byzantine/Roman texts); many state that their first mention in the Balkans is roughly in the 11th century;
3) The fact that Albanians, just like the Mardaites, were initially non-Orthodox Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians

If there are any Albanians on this forum their insight is welcome. Please note that the object of this topic is not to spread anti-Albanian propaganda, but merely LISTING of facts which I was able to find in various books.

Who are the Mardaites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardaites

Mardaite origins are as elusive as that of Illyrians. They inhabited the highland regions of southern Anatolia, Syria, Lebanon, Isauria. Some authors have argued that they were of Armenian, Persian, or Kurdish origin, however, these arguments rest on conjectures and speculations. We actually know nothing of them in terms of linguistic or ethnic affiliation.

What is an historical fact is that, according to medieval texts, Justinian II (in 690s) relocated a large number of Mardaites to the southern coast of Asia Minor, particularly Pamphylia, Lycia and Cilicia. Later on, in the 9th century, Mardaites moved to the themes of the Peloponnese, Epirus (including Acarnania, Aetolia) and Cephalenia. This took place as part of Byzantine measures to restore population and manpower to areas depleted by earlier conflicts. What this means is that these regions, at the time Mardaites were settled there, were entirely depopulated or at best sparsely inhabited (by Slavs and Vlachs - this is confirmed by Byzantine sources).

Here's a quote from Ostrogorsky's "History of the Byzantine state", citing medieval sources:

"The Mardaite people, which lived in the area of Byzantine-Arab borders, were settled in the Peloponnese, the island Cephalenia, in the region of Nicopolis/Epirus, and in Antalya (coast of Asia Minor)."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=PjMts15kLz0C&pg=PA132&dq=Ostrogorsky+Mardaites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VXwHT6KLNePX0QH9tIHeAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Ostrogorsky%20Mardaites&f=false

Additional details can be found here:
Makrypoulias, Christos G. (2005), "Mardaites in Asia Minor".

Do Albanians have any sort of historical connection with the term/name "Mardaites"? A couple of examples:

- According to a document of the Latin sovereigns of Corfu dated 1365, which ratifies an earlier (1246) decree of Michael II, the ruler of Epirus, referring to a "DECARHIA MARDATORUM".

Does this refer to Albanians (Tosks)? 95% likely, as Albanians lived in great numbers in Epirus by this time. There were also Vlachs, Slavs, and other communities (Jews, Catholics/Venetians). No other ethnicities are mentioned at this time in historical texts.

- The Mirdite tribe

The Mirdite tribe, the only tribe where the Albanian language and religion is still the same as centuries before. The oldest families (which are brothers in the same time) are: Oroshi (leading family of the Mirdite), Kushneni and Spaqi. Fandi and Dibri family were hosted by the Mirdite (they came from southern Kosovo) later when those two tribe didn't want to obey the rules of the Ottoman Empire,thus, the perfect place for this was Mirdite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Albania

- Republic of Mirdita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirdita_Republic

Again, I will let the reader judge and conclude for himself, based on the facts provided.

Questions:

1) Did Albanians absorb and assimilate the Mardaites? That is, are Mardaites a separate ethnic groups from Albanians, which Albanians assimilated over the centuries?

2) Or are they simply Mardaites themselves, appearing under various names in historical texts, eventually spreading northwards from Epirus, along the Adriatic coast towards Montenegro, Kosovo and Macedonia? The "change" of names or use of different appellations for the same ethnicity is quite common throughout history. Albanians call themselves Shqiptarėt; the term Albanians and Albania was used and popularized by the Catholics and Venetians.


PS: My next post will deal with and address "inconsistency" #3: "Albanians, when they first appear in the Balkans, were non-Orthodox Christians (like the Mardaites)."

[Soldier of Macedon]

Carlin, I moved your post to this thread.

[Carlin]

Thanks SOM.