Greek Nationalism Out of Control

[Risto the Great]

The post 1980s era in Greece has been a period where “nationalism” is officially vilified and this approach covers about 95-98% of the political scenery. I wouldn’t call this period nationalistic. Most politicians even avoid the terms nation, national when they may have a far-right echo. The right-wing often calls this a period of left-wing ideological hegemony.

What's up with the revisionism? Wasn't Samaras spending US$130 million trying to promote Macedonia as Greek starting from the 1980's? I would say this period was when the delusion about Greek national superiority reached it's zenith. The notion of Macedonia being Greek was the perfect distraction. It gave Greece a purpose on the world stage. Instead of having to be defensive in relation to its comical collection of financial lies about its economic status, it was able to stand on podiums and demand restitution about an issue which they didn't even want to talk about 10 (and further) years earlier.

They would have peaked right after the olympics.
Looking good 11 years later! Symbolic of Greece in so many ways one would think.

The Macedonian issue was the perfect way for Greece to sidestep its fiscal responsibilities to its citizens. It kept them suitably distracted and fuelled the kind of racism that saw deluded Greeks attacking Macedonians who chose to holiday in Greece. This is the worst kind of nationalism.

Maybe the message was misunderstood, they did not refer to your country and they did not mean we want to conquer you.

I believe the millions of Greek sheeple totally understood your politicians and priests at the time. Hook, line and sinker. So easily played and distracted!

The embargo and the ensuing Greek nationalistic insanity has only slightly diminished since they have begun to embrace their austerity. Soon they will realise their shit does stink and that they have so much catching up to do in order to be truly European.

[Philosopher]

Golden Dawn does not use the Swastika and basically avoid the fascist salute, though there have been instances and photographic documents. Metaxas regime was also using the fascist salute.

So, what exactly is a Greek neo-nazi? Someone who fights for a greater Germany in a United Europe?

Oh, oh, me me!

The Swastika is an ancient symbol adopted by the national socialists of Germany. Its use today, as its use then, is not necessarily a reflection of national socialism. In fact, it usually is not.

There is considerable misunderstanding about this, as there is considerable misunderstanding of right-wing political philosophy. Neo-nazis are left-wing political ideologues. Neo-nazism is national socialism. Socialism is a left-wing economic theory, and nationalism can be a left wing or right wing ideology.

A Greek neo-nazi is not one who fights for a greater Germany, but one who uses a similar political and economic ideology, but in Greece.

[Amphipolis]

What's up with the revisionism? Wasn't Samaras spending US$130 million trying to promote Macedonia as Greek starting from the 1980's? I would say this period was when the delusion about Greek national superiority reached it's zenith. The notion of Macedonia being Greek was the perfect distraction. It gave Greece a purpose on the world stage. Instead of having to be defensive in relation to its comical collection of financial lies about its economic status, it was able to stand on podiums and demand restitution about an issue which they didn't even want to talk about 10 (and further) years earlier.

No, Samaras became minister in 1990. As to when the Macedonian Question was reawakened, I’d say around Sartzetakis’ visit to Australia if memory serves (1988?). Before that, very few people knew what this is or cared about it. I remember Martis (ex-Minister of North Greece) was quite active about it, writing newspaper articles etc. but I never read it and couldn’t understand what this is all about back then (e.g. mid-80s).

The name dispute was not critical (or even present) in Greek politics except for that period (early 90s). Your other comments are also irrelevant. The Greek debt crisis started around 2010 as a result of the 2008 economic crisis.

The main event that characterized 1990s-2000s in pro-crisis Greece was illegal immigration and the consequent social changes. You will not find a film or book describing this era where illegal immigrants are not present. It was “the new thing” that happened to us. The other main political slogan of the era was “modernization” (ecsynchronismos) which meant that socialists were becoming “social-democrats” and the two major parties (New Democracy and Socialists) started to converge. Overall, it was “good-times”, a politically stable period, with continuous economic growth.

A Greek neo-nazi is not one who fights for a greater Germany, but one who uses a similar political and economic ideology, but in Greece.

If we accept your definition I don’t know if they’re neo-nazis. First, they’re too small. Second, their ideas or plans (if they have any) remain banned, unclear, unknown. Then again, Hitler was also jailed at one point.


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[George S.]

Amphipolis I know about mitsotakis and the rest of your greek cohorts trying to make revisionism palatable.Leo martis wrote 4000 years of greek history.All fake stuff.No need to discuss that he has no real qualifications to do with the matter.Also trying to spread the greek claim over Macedonia is the treasures on a tour to Australia and other countries.
Not only that bribing professors ,rewriting books a literary crusade to omit vital information about Macedonians.The truth.THe paying of journalists to write about the greekness of Macedonia this extended to bribing Macedonian journalists.Not only that the greek govt getting professors to write to president Obama.What next you are going to tell me what a good neighbour Greece was to put an embargo with untold damage to Macedonia.
"The name dispute was not critical (or even present) in Greek politics except for that period (early 90s). Your other comments are also irrelevant. The Greek debt crisis started around 2010 as a result of the 2008 economic crisis.This is rubbish The name dispute resurfaced by Greece renaming the province of Macedonia from being called northern Greece.How about the Macedonian constitution and Greece demanding Macedonia change their name to fyrom and have entries in her constitution re irrendist aspirations.The fact is Greece has her own aspirations on Macedonia..

[Risto the Great]

I believe the propaganda money started in the late 80's where US$18 million was paid to journalists. Wasn't Samaras a minister from 1989? I am sure he was. It doesn't matter who really. It matters when the propaganda machine started, which was 1989. It definitely factored into the disturbing and amplified brand of nationalism that is synonomous with Greece.

Greece entered the EU in 1981. It lied about its finances to get in. It spent the next 25 years lying and diverting attention about it. Feel free to deny it but history shows otherwise.

No, Samaras became minister in 1990. As to when the Macedonian Question was reawakened, I’d say around Sartzetakis’ visit to Australia if memory serves (1988?). Before that, very few people knew what this is or cared about it. I remember Martis (ex-Minister of North Greece) was quite active about it, writing newspaper articles etc. but I never read it and couldn’t understand what this is all about back then (e.g. mid-80s).

The name dispute was not critical (or even present) in Greek politics except for that period (early 90s). Your other comments are also irrelevant. The Greek debt crisis started around 2010 as a result of the 2008 economic crisis.

The main event that characterized 1990s-2000s in pro-crisis Greece was illegal immigration and the consequent social changes. You will not find a film or book describing this era where illegal immigrants are not present. It was “the new thing” that happened to us. The other main political slogan of the era was “modernization” (ecsynchronismos) which meant that socialists were becoming “social-democrats” and the two major parties (New Democracy and Socialists) started to converge. Overall, it was “good-times”, a politically stable period, with continuous economic growth.

[Amphipolis]

I believe the propaganda money started in the late 80's where US$18 million was paid to journalists. Wasn't Samaras a minister from 1989? I am sure he was. It doesn't matter who really. It matters when the propaganda machine started, which was 1989. It definitely factored into the disturbing and amplified brand of nationalism that is synonomous with Greece.

I don’t know which alleged bribing you’re talking about. Since this is the second time it’s mentioned do you have a link to something more specific? Samaras became Minister of Foreign Affairs in April 1990 when Mitsotakis first became Prime Minister and he (Samaras) stayed at office for exactly 2 years.

Before that Greece (1989-1990) had a weird period of non-Government for about a year (Tzannetakis, Grivas and Zolotas were Prime Ministers). Before that (1981-1989) it was the time of Andreas Papandreou.

Greece entered the EU in 1981. It lied about its finances to get in. It spent the next 25 years lying and diverting attention about it. Feel free to deny it but history shows otherwise.

You’re a little confused. Greece lied about its finances in order to enter the Euro-currency around 2000-2001. This isn’t a big deal (so did France for instance). That is mostly because Eurozone has strict (German) rules for low deficits, as explained in the following figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#/media/File:Government_surplus_or_deficit_%28EU-USA-UK%29.png

[George S.]

Not only was there bribing of journalists/professors etc etc there were briberies to do with artifacts found on rom territory and subsequently sold to Greece .Then Greece could claim exclusive use and say they have found them on greek territory.Talking here of ancient Macedonia artifacts.Not only this but opoiliticians were willing to spend some of the defence budget to buy out the Macedonian politicians to change the flag or name etc.
Also Amphipolis what you are oblivious to we are quite aware of what is really going on.In any situation there is a lot of feedback there is no escaping ,running or hiding wont help the greeks,We know what you are upto at any given moment.So denying something simply for the sakr wont help you.

[Risto the Great]

Feel free to explain how little you believe of this:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/10962/2/

Please give your justifications.

The period saw a crazed Greece in relation to the Macedonian issue. It was trumped up nationalism at its ugliest. I have no idea why you refute this. Perhaps being a Greek, you simply can't even understand how ugly it is.

Please tell me there were no financial integrity requirements for Greece's EEC funding from 1981 onwards.

I don’t know which alleged bribing you’re talking about. Since this is the second time it’s mentioned do you have a link to something more specific? Samaras became Minister of Foreign Affairs in April 1990 when Mitsotakis first became Prime Minister and he (Samaras) stayed at office for exactly 2 years.

Before that Greece (1989-1990) had a weird period of non-Government for about a year (Tzannetakis, Grivas and Zolotas were Prime Ministers). Before that (1981-1989) it was the time of Andreas Papandreou.



You’re a little confused. Greece lied about its finances in order to enter the Euro-currency around 2000-2001. This isn’t a big deal (so did France for instance). That is mostly because Eurozone has strict (German) rules for low deficits, as explained in the following figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#/media/File:Government_surplus_or_deficit_%28EU-USA-UK%29.png

[Amphipolis]

Feel free to explain how little you believe of this:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/10962/2/

Please give your justifications.
The period saw a crazed Greece in relation to the Macedonian issue. It was trumped up nationalism at its ugliest. I have no idea why you refute this. Perhaps being a Greek, you simply can't even understand how ugly it is.

A good article describing this story can be found in the link (I added a Google translation in the following post)

http://tvxs.gr/news/%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B1/%CF%84%CE%B1-%C2%AB%CE%BC%CF%85%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC-%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%B1%C2%BB-%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC

It is reliable in the sense that it is written by the “Virus” research group which is leftist/anarchist and often anti-Greek (their work is often hosted in the forum) and because it is unconcluded.

Mitsotakis accused Samaras of mishandling the secret funds and basically of stealing them (and giving them to his journalist friends). Thus you and Mina News didn’t get what the scandal was. The dates in Mina News are also incorrect; the correct are the ones in my previous post. Samaras was at office for two years (spring 1990 to spring 1992).

As to what my opinion is, I can’t really say, I’m closer to believe Samaras’ side. It seems he simplified the process of secret funds, so only he and two other people knew where the funds would go and they would destroy the evidence twice a year. Among the other two people, one is a trustee of Samaras the other was a trustee of Mitsotakis. So, Samaras was probably innocent.

I also don’t remember Samaras having an issue of popularity or weird ambitions at the time. He was a young handsome aristocrat, politically gifted, famous for his affairs with some of the most beautiful Greek stars (Anna Vissi or my favorite striking Myrto Paraschi), he was a protégée of Mitsotakis (they were to become the worst enemies later) who skyrocketed from a nobody to Minister of Foreign Affairs (a very important post). Everybody believed that Mitsotakis wanted him as his successor. Why would he steal all the money?

The fact that after being considered a traitor of his party, responsible for overthrowing the New Democracy government he managed to make a comeback and become the leader of New Democracy is also a sign of his innocence.

Please tell me there were no financial integrity requirements for Greece's EEC funding from 1981 onwards.

I’m not sure what you mean, Greece was mostly funded by the so-called Mediterranean funds of EEC and there was at least one scandal that ended up at court, the so-called corn scandal.


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[Amphipolis]

This is a google translation of the above link

The internal party conflicts that marked the battle of succession in the New Republic restored in the public debate the political and personal conflict between Antonis Samaras and Kostas Mitsotakis in April 1992, when the then foreign minister was forced to resign and was replaced in his post by the same time Prime.

In the context of that political dissent were heard and written a lot lately. The truth is that one of the aspects of today still remain obscure, although the detection of the Government addressed the Prosecutor of the Supreme Court and the ESIEA.

Then and now

This is the notorious "secret funds" of the foreign ministry, which soared during the minister Samaras and which opened a wide debate in the media, where there have been allegations that a large part of them went into the pockets of Greek journalists and publishers.

Some of these complaints came from the side Mitsotakis, which attributed to Mr. Samara selfish use of these funds with a view to personal view of the ambitious new policy and the development of good public relations serving SMEs.

On his part, Mr. Samaras accused the former leader of the campaign for mud and considered it manage the funds in a legal and ethnofeli way. I only accepted by both sides is that the way that controlled these funds were fully consolidated in Samara, whereas this responsibility was assigned to a faceted shape from Mr. Mitsotakis.

Both sides can insist on their position as it takes up Mr. Mitsotakis Ministry on 04.13.1992, they had destroyed the documents of those costs. The latest documents for spending 603 million. Drs. Were destroyed, according to a statement from Mr. Samara on 03/17/1992. The only thing left to investigate the case was the total expenditure and the testimonies of people who have handled this financing. But these people were loyal to each side: Manolis Kalamidas Mr. Samaras and Dimitris Avramopoulos Mr. Mitsotakis.

The case came to light in the form of scandal after the fall of the Mitsotakis government. The current president of the Republic then played a role, since he was the first foreign minister of the PASOK government after the elections of 10 October 1993. Mr. Papoulias commissioned a SAD to mentor, former judiciary, which has not resulted in specific accountability . However, this initial survey has identified an increase in yearly spending confidential:

"The year 1989, with an initial credit 2.2 billion drachmas. Spent amount 3.278.376.500. The year 1990, with an initial appropriation 2,000,000,000 drachmas. Spent amount 2.047.761.404. The year 1991, with an initial credit 2.500.000.000, spent amount 5.047.837.085. The year 1992, with an initial credit 4.100.000.000, spent amount 7.459.447.649. The year 1993, with an initial credit 4.340.000.000, until 10.10.1993 [ie. Election Day] spent amount 6.231.881.799 ».

The only thing we can do today is to present the data in this confrontation, as recorded by the First Disciplinary Board of ESIEA who dealt with the case, not to mention the journalists' names and forms that were named when the investigation could eventually yield in no particular responsibility.

The "deposit" Mitsotakis

On March 10th 1994 visited former Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis in the private office of the street Aravantinou representatives of the Board of ESIEA and First Disciplinary Council of the Union.

According to the minutes prepared for the meeting, at the beginning of the debate, Mr. Mitsotakis stated that "only important secret funds from the foreign ministry," but "given and other funds from the banks administrations and large organizations from various directions for individual usually view and not view government work. "

Then described the "ugly", described as, a situation found in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, when he took over after the removal of Mr. Antonis Samaras after the funds were left at the end of the year 40-48 million. Drs., And large amounts (from the secret funds that were inflated too) were channeled to unknown recipients, without the existence of supporting "Surprised to learn that the system had changed," he said. "So the Foreign Minister could have wanted where secret funds, while control was a 3-member committee also appointed by the same minister. The relevant documents were destroyed twice a year. "

Then Mr. Mitsotakis said that he asked to immediately change the secret funds allocation system, "which caused an uproar and complaints of Mr. Samara ', and when he attempted to" clarify "the situation found that" very significant funding -over 1 billion. drch.- went to advertising. "

Mr. Mitsotakis said that inquired where did these funds (1 billion. Dr.), But no one accepted to answer. Manolis Kalamidas (which was invited by Mr. Tzounis answer) said that he can not answer while he (ie. Mr. Mitsotakis) demanded an explanation from Mr. Samaras. At this point Mr. Mitsotakis said emphasizing those present that "there is a secret funds mismanagement issue. Done excessive use costs. I know people, journalists, receiving money. In cash".

On persistent questions about how this was going on, Mr. Mitsotakis said: "There was a sack of notes. In fact, it was a black nylon bag, like those who put trash. It was full pentochiliara. From there they took the money and handed out. "

Asked if he has personal knowledge and how he knows it, he replied: "I had been told, also saw himself."

In another question, about who can assure them that states -dioti are very serious charges for the entire journalistic world- former Prime Minister replied: "The knowledge, except Mr. Samaras, Mr. Kalamidas and one assistant Kalamida, who served as a diplomat in Paris (Ed .: not remember his name, but the other deposits that meant Mr. Francis Verros). They also can assure Mr. Avramopoulos and general manager of financial services of the Foreign Ministry (named said Ladiko). "

He said on these complaints:

"I found the edge you speak two diplomats who gave the money."

"They were given checks. Cash only. "

"The money given mainly for propaganda about the name of Macedonia. But instead propaganda be outwardly become inwardly ".

Mr. Mitsotakis also hinted that money channeled to specific journalists to "build" his political imatz Mr. Samaras. He said, finally, that estimates that over one and a half years was allocated from the secret funds over 1 billion. Drs. And urged the members of the Board ESIEA and members of the Disciplinary Board to seek the recommendation of the Selection Committee of things in the House on the issue of secret funds.

The "deposit" Samaras

On April 21, 1994 representatives of First Instance Disciplinary Board of ESIEA Antonis Samaras visited the offices of the Political Spring Street Sina to learn from him his views on those complaints. According to the minutes drawn up after the meeting, the chairman of the Political Spring categorically denied that money was given to journalists from secret funds of the ministry.

He assured members of the First Instance Disciplinary Board that, besides providing some funds in publications and journalists for national reasons, in any other case not money given to journalists.

When asked for what reasons have increased the funds of the Ministry of Information Department of Foreign Affairs between 1990 and 1991, both Antonis Samaras and the bystander in the discussion Manolis Kalamidas answered that the amounts appear as the update service expenses include miscellaneous costs Foreign Ministry which for practical reasons were recorded in the headings of "renovation."

As reinforcing the position that Mr. Samaras added that if he wanted, as circulated in the media, to allocate money to journalists in order to secure his personal view, could make it out the figure of 2 billion. Drs. Who He had the absolute disposal as minister without being obliged to announce where available.

When he came whereas Mr. Mitsotakis, in a meeting held with members of the First and the Disciplinary Board of ESIEA, claimed, without however having the hands of elements of proof that actually put money from the secret funds reporters, Mr. Samaras featured falsehoods what he said. Mitsotakis and yielded an attempt by the latter to expose him politically in the eyes of public opinion, reflecting the view of the media to the fact that Mr. Samaras 'Ladon' journalists to display it.

Mr. Avramopoulos chose to give a taciturn written response to questions about his own involvement in the affair: "Today, May 23, 1994, at the invitation of First Instance Disciplinary Board of ESIEA, I met with members where, when asked about issues regarding a possible disposal of funds from the funds of the Foreign reporters, replied: During the period I was a representative of the Foreign Ministry and conducted the update service and based on the existing documents are not allocated money to journalists, except for small fees of about of 15,000 drs., to form partnerships with ekdideto the responsibility of the Foreign Ministry. Asked if during the period was representative knew or heard that money given was minister Samaras replied, categorically declare that I was not even able to know ".

Based on these data, on 19.10.1994 the Disciplinary Council reached a conclusion-puzzle, which "closes the case file," but "leaves the question open."

The conclusion of the finding is that "became futile search of natural potential perpetrators of bribery, because of the safeguards to which government agencies and bureaucracy covering any action, citing national expediency."

The file reopens

Twenty days later the file was reopened. On 08.11.1994, the then Director General of the Political Bureau of K. Mitsotakis, Dionisis Hatzidakis asked to give evidence to the Disciplinary Board in response to what he said Manolis Kalamidas in broadcast Terrence Kouik, on ANT1.

During his interview, Mr. Hatzidakis tabled the following:

"I understand the fact of the Second Officer of the Embassy Verros, in the office of our Embassy in Paris, when I served as a seaman following there and during commissioned to perform SAD Deputy Prosecutor of the Supreme Court D. Stamoulis. Then he summoned the Verros to testify, he was hovering his name that he gave money to some journalists. In the discussion that we had told me that the then prime minister had given carte blanche to the then Foreign Minister. Samaras amount 2.3 billion. To handle them for national purposes, but he used them for his personal imatz. And when I asked what you intend to do, Mr. Verros told me, I can not testify nothing of all this. I told him that you have an obligation to tell. I replied, "I disagree with his handling of Samara, but I can not spit my former minister, who was director of the office." Another day I only three days later, I was back in his office and told me he leaves to go to testify in Athens and there telephoned Mr. Kalamida and your unaltered deposit dialogue: "Manolis hello. Francis here. Descend Athens to testify and say I saw nothing, nothing I gave, I do not know anything. " From this point onwards I left the office. With Mr. Verros connects great friendship and many Saturdays at 11 noon I went out of the house, she took him and went to the forest of Boulogne, and we ran. When we stopped and walked to rest, we syzitagame the then political situation and when I asked him what happened to his testimony in your ministry, told me "I do not know anything and that dossiers with associated evidence of those who were taking were destroyed." Once again I asked him why did not give names, he said "Come to my place, and think to yourself, being in Mitsotakis's office and to give evidence to burn human beings." Otherwise our meeting, told me a few names, of which struck some, but I'm not able to tell you how many and how they took. "

Then the witness named a number of journalists.

Asked if in his opinion Mr. Verros was unable to know the names of journalists who took money from the secret funds of the Foreign Ministry, the witness replied: "Absolutely yes, because as I said, he was paying them."

Asked if in his opinion Mr. Verros keep a copy of the lists with the names of journalists who sums allocated from the secret funds, the witness replied: "I am sure he has situations, I do not that can be and prototypes" .

Asked finally whether Mr. Verros informed about the process and the feasibility of such payments, Mr. Hatzidakis said: "Some come every month. From what I was telling Mr. Verros the debates, I believe that were given by Mr. Samara to build its own courtyard and pass its messages. "

Asked if other than the names that curbed there were other journalists who were paid, Mr. Hatzidakis said: "I was given the impression, I could say the certainty, that was enough."

One day later submitted to the Disciplinary Board a written statement John Vooltepsis, as Director of Press of New Democracy on Mitsotakis and current member of the Appellate Disciplinary Board of ESIEA.

With this statement, Mr. Vooltepsis will confirm the deposit Hatzidakis. However, the envelope of the funds would not be reopened.

The issue was discussed in March 1994 and the House. In response to a Member of KKE Stratis Korakas, George Papandreou -with the status of the Foreign deputy minister described the absolute inability to control these funds:

"One of the first actions of the Foreign minister. Papoulias was to order SAD to investigate what they saw the light of day. Unfortunately, Mr Korakas, due to total lack of evidence, even indicative, relevant folders file FM, the ITC could not be verified anything from what has been said about this case of bribery of journalists. It is known that current law recognizes the State Department special expenses, or otherwise confidential funds national expenditure and that is the Law. 419/76. According to a provision of this law, the control of expenditure on secret national need effected under the prokalesasis taftin competent service. Sound management of these funds is left to the patriotism of the political leadership. "

The "sensor"

We, therefore, doomed to never know how those allocated (and today's) secret funds, epafiemenoi the "patriotism political leadership"?

The publisher of one of the leading newspapers today in support of Antonis Samaras, the Themos Anastasiadis was then throw an idea. With cynical humor, had fun of the effort to implement the Occupying reporters, indicating a secure way to discover the audience to whom journalists end up obvious and secret funds: "The best sensor Occupying the anyway by the reader himself, that the smelt immediately work. She tells you to cut eg such and such a journalist so much favor, eg Samaras, a pit has fava "(03/05/1995).

Who, really, dare today to invoke this "sensor"?

A search without end

Immediately after the elections of October 10, 1993 there have been reports of the existence of a list of journalists and publications that had been recipients of significant sums from the secret funds of the Foreign Ministry. These publications caused special investigations by the government, the judiciary and institutions of ESIEA.

On 8.11.1993 was assigned to Panagiotis VENARDOU of First Instance Disciplinary Board of ESIEA preliminary investigation "in order to determine what elements are there any bribe journalists via the secret funds."

[George S.]

The name issue or the macedonian symbol was hardly an issue since 1944.Greece knew that macedonia used the name as a state in yugoslavia.Macedonia was controlled by serbia greeces friend so greece never raised any of the issues.Example in 1988 andronicus discovers the star of vergina and gets exited and everyone in greece thinks its an exclusive When in FACT in rom the macedonian sun symbol has been used and displayed in churches etc in rom for a very long time.So macedonians call it the macedonian sun symbol.The greeks call it the star of vergina.Also in germany there are pictures of a golden kasket of a larnax found on rom territory probably earlier than the 1988 discovery in vergina.The name issue only beganwhen greece tried to stop macedonia as it emerged from the serbian control as a state of yugo and became a cohuntry 1991 proclamation.So the name issue is not really an issue as such only that the greeks try and make it one.They think they have a monopoly on the name all that bullshit and lies that macedonia was and is greek what a farce it is.
Greece is trying to force macedonia not to use her own name how crazy is that its a constitutional name.Fact the name of a country doesnt intefere with the name of a province the two can co exist .Also the greeks should know full well how they acquired macedonian territory simply by a landgrab.Also the people it denies their human rights are the original settlers not some resettled people from somewhere.Think about how the greeks did not even allow macedonia to join the eu only under a nonsensical name.

[Amphipolis]

The name issue or the macedonian symbol was hardly an issue since 1944.Greece knew that macedonia used the name as a state in yugoslavia.Macedonia was controlled by serbia greeces friend so greece never raised any of the issues.Example in 1988 andronicus discovers the star of vergina and gets exited and everyone in greece thinks its an exclusive When in FACT in rom the macedonian sun symbol has been used and displayed in churches etc in rom for a very long time.So macedonians call it the macedonian sun symbol.The greeks call it the star of vergina.Also in germany there are pictures of a golden kasket of a larnax found on rom territory probably earlier than the 1988 discovery in vergina.The name issue only beganwhen greece tried to stop macedonia as it emerged from the serbian control as a state of yugo and became a cohuntry 1991 proclamation.So the name issue is not really an issue as such only that the greeks try and make it one.They think they have a monopoly on the name all that bullshit and lies that macedonia was and is greek what a farce it is.
Greece is trying to force macedonia not to use her own name how crazy is that its a constitutional name.Fact the name of a country doesnt intefere with the name of a province the two can co exist .Also the greeks should know full well how they acquired macedonian territory simply by a landgrab.Also the people it denies their human rights are the original settlers not some resettled people from somewhere.Think about how the greeks did not even allow macedonia to join the eu only under a nonsensical name.

Watch out. Your dates are critically mistaken. The symbol was not unknown before the Vergina discoveries, but it is true nobody knew its’ importance (if there is any) or cared about it.

Vergina discoveries were at 1977 (not 1988). 1988 was the year (as far as I understand) that you started adopting the symbol (particularly in Australia) and Greece was alarmed about it.

Also, Greece DID have an issue with your name back in 1944 but it was an internal issue of Yugoslavia or at least a bilateral one There was no issue of international law.

[Mad Mak]

Also, Greece DID have an issue with your name back in 1944 but it was an internal issue of Yugoslavia or at least a bilateral one There was no issue of international law.

Do you have more informations about that? I'm interested.

[Stojacanec]

Watch out. Your dates are critically mistaken. The symbol was not unknown before the Vergina discoveries, but it is true nobody knew its’ importance (if there is any) or cared about it.

Vergina discoveries were at 1977 (not 1988). 1988 was the year (as far as I understand) that you started adopting the symbol (particularly in Australia) and Greece was alarmed about it.

Also, Greece DID have an issue with your name back in 1944 but it was an internal issue of Yugoslavia or at least a bilateral one There was no issue of international law.

Greece DIDN'T know what to make of the symbol because it only annexed Macedonian land just decades before the Vergina discoveries.

it took greece up to 1995 to figure out that it had to protect it as a state symbol.

the fact that greece was successful in obtaining this is indicative of a shambolic european union.

This is just another reason why greece is re-active against all things Macedonian.

Your still trying to find your feet and figure out who you are.

[Risto the Great]

It is reliable in the sense that it is written by the “Virus” research group which is leftist/anarchist and often anti-Greek (their work is often hosted in the forum) and because it is unconcluded.

Mitsotakis accused Samaras of mishandling the secret funds and basically of stealing them (and giving them to his journalist friends). Thus you and Mina News didn’t get what the scandal was. The dates in Mina News are also incorrect; the correct are the ones in my previous post. Samaras was at office for two years (spring 1990 to spring 1992).

As to what my opinion is, I can’t really say, I’m closer to believe Samaras’ side. It seems he simplified the process of secret funds, so only he and two other people knew where the funds would go and they would destroy the evidence twice a year. Among the other two people, one is a trustee of Samaras the other was a trustee of Mitsotakis. So, Samaras was probably innocent.

It does seem to discuss secret funds disappearing since 1989. Hence my mention of the 1980's. In all honesty, I do not believe all of it was used for Macedonian propaganda. I believe some of it was. But I suspect the majority of it was typical Greek thievery wrapped up in some kind of justification that might appease the masses.

Interesting that the justification used was to ensure Macedonia was thought of as Greek. If you are going to sell such thievery to your constituents, you may as well use the Macedonian issue that has kept Greeks distracted for decades. In other words, steal the money and say it was to prove Macedonia is Greek ...

I believe Samaras publicly acknowledged that a large amount of money was paid to publishers, journalists and local officials.

The 90's reflected a terrible and amplified brand of nationalism in Greece. And Macedonia was a massive part of that. I can't see how anyone would deny this (unless you were a Greek).

I’m not sure what you mean, Greece was mostly funded by the so-called Mediterranean funds of EEC and there was at least one scandal that ended up at court, the so-called corn scandal.

So, as all the boxes were being ticked in the Greek Convergence Programme of the 1990's, you think nobody was getting nervous about the statistics in Greece?

This kind of talk will never be heard in Greece for 100 years:

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/pdf/20_scps/1998-99/01_programme/el_1998-12-01_sp_en.pdf

The progress towards convergence during the first three years of the application of the CP, namely in the period 1994 - 1996, continued unabated in 1997. The targets set in the 1997 update of the CP for the main convergence and economic indicators have been comfortably achieved

So cringe-worthy looking back now!

Will you insist that Greece was in no way answerable to the EEC during the 1990's, specifically in relation to qualifying for EuroZone entry the following decade?