Boris Trajkovski

[Phoenix]

Don't be foolish to dismiss what Warrior is saying, I understand that Gruevski has popular support on this and many other forums and that he's probably the 'best' of a very bad bunch that we've had in the past as leaders but that doesn't mean we take our eyes off the ball.

The diaspora in particular has to watch over these people like hawks, we should give them 100% support when they're clearly doing the right thing but we should be harsh with our criticism when other matters are being compromised.

I'm not sure how 'mature' the Macedonian electorate is in these matters, the transparency of government has always been an issue in Macedonia and we can't depend on the Macedonian media to scrutinize in any independent fashion. This is where the role of the diaspora is critical, our diaspora organizations need to be just as independent and as watchful and uncompromising.

The diaspora if harnessed correctly is an extremely powerful tool and should be used accordingly it should make up for the shortfalls and weaknesses evident in every Macedonian Government since independence.

History will be Gruevski's ultimate judge but lets not leave it until its too late...and end up with another embarrassment like Georgievski and the production line of sellouts that the Macedonian nation has been burdened with throughout its history.

[BigMak]

I don't think he was a good president. I don't think he deserved to die but he didn't do anything much for the country. He was an unknown guy who didn't have balls to stand up for Macedonia and the Macedonian people in the time of crisis. If I were in his position I would have closed the borders to any US./ NATO person until I deal with the crisis in the country, not run of to sell is out as soon as things got a bit shitty

I agree, and in adding he didn't think twice when the time came to sit down for the ohrid agreement, this one and only agreement changed the face and demographics of Macedonia for years to come unimaginable for any other country to perceive.

[Phoenix]

I agree, and in adding he didn't think twice when the time came to sit down for the ohrid agreement, this one and only agreement changed the face and demographics of Macedonia for years to come unimaginable for any other country to perceive.

Before we got to that humiliating fork in the road there's the little matter about what really happened in Aracinovo...

A very strong 'rumour' at the time was that Macedonia's special forces had the leadership in Aricinovo 'on toast' so to speak and when the 'evidence' was brought to Trajkovski, he shit his pants...then all of a sudden Solana is driving a convoy of terrorist buses out of Aracinovo...

As commander of Macedonian forces the order should have been to leave nothing but a pile of rubble in what was Aracinovo...today we find ourselves in somewhat of a mess...that battle in Aracinovo was a turning point moment in our history, sadly the wrong decision was made...

When I think of Trajkovski, I can't stop thinking of the existence of that cosmic force that they call Karma...

[Prolet]

Phoenix, I agree we shouldnt give blind trust to anybody even the Pope.

I agree that we shouldnt drop the ball like what happened last time with that Predavnik Ljubco, i totally agree that Gruevski is a standout in a very bad bunch who've disgraced our people for so long. That in itself is a problem because there is nobody good enough to push Nikola Gruevski and rank with him he is simply a standout against a poor group of people.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, I agree we shouldnt give blind trust to anybody even the Pope.

I agree that we shouldnt drop the ball like what happened last time with that Predavnik Ljubco, i totally agree that Gruevski is a standout in a very bad bunch who've disgraced our people for so long. That in itself is a problem because there is nobody good enough to push Nikola Gruevski and rank with him he is simply a standout against a poor group of people.

Prolet, the last person on this planet that I would be giving my blind trust to would be the Pope...

[Prolet]

Before we got to that humiliating fork in the road there's the little matter about what really happened in Aracinovo...

A very strong 'rumour' at the time was that Macedonia's special forces had the leadership in Aricinovo 'on toast' so to speak and when the 'evidence' was brought to Trajkovski, he shit his pants...then all of a sudden Solana is driving a convoy of terrorist buses out of Aracinovo...

As commander of Macedonian forces the order should have been to leave nothing but a pile of rubble in what was Aracinovo...today we find ourselves in somewhat of a mess...that battle in Aracinovo was a turning point moment in our history, sadly the wrong decision was made...

When I think of Trajkovski, I can't stop thinking of the existence of that cosmic force that they call Karma...

Phoenix, I dont disagree with you about Trajkovski however he was the Commander in chief, Trajkovski was in charge of the Army not the police. It was a battled conflict not a war, the army can only intervene if we are attacked by foreign troops and we where by Kosovo Albanians. Unofficially and in reality we where attacked, however officially we wernt, If we declared war and mobilized all our troops it would have been a different matter and from there on whatever happens the President bares responsibility.

The reality is that the Albanians got what they wanted (The basic needs from their side) they thought that once they are in power they will gain even more political rights however its not the case anymore and now they themselves are against the agreement probably more then us, however they have to realize that once the Agreement is broken it starts from zero again they loose all the rights they where given and there wont be another Ramkoven Dogovor anymore they get the same treatment like any other ethnic minority in Macedonia which is how it should be. Like now the Albanians are protesting that they dont want their children learning Macedonian from Grade 1 and Education Minister Todorov has ordered them they must do so.

[Rogi]

Many Macedonians were involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the beginning - it has its' foundations with DOOM. Boris Zmejkovski, for example, was also involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the very beginning.

Do you wish to imply that this suggests he also had a pro-Bulgarian view? That couldn't be further from the truth - he was the most pro-Macedonian of all, and still is.

Nikola Gruevski was barely 21 in 1991 and was still a student. He wasn't involved with politics at that time. He also does not have a pro-Bulgarian leaning, unlike some of his predecessors and allegedly his colleagues.


The pro-Bulgarian view or lobby within the ranks of VMRO-DPMNE has about 5-10% of the VMRO-DPMNE membership; that is, some 30,000 or so people.

Whilst the pro-Serbian view or lobby within the ranks of SDSM has about 10-15% of the SDSM membership; that is, some 20,000 or so people.

[Prolet]

Rogi, You where in VMRO back then and i dont see you having pro Bulgarian views, as for Boris Zmejkovski im good friends with his vnuk, he is now the director of the Boris Trajkovski sala this is why you see the Sonce on the flag poles.

Rogi, Boris Zmejkovski is still the craziest Vmrovec around, if things went his way alot of the Anti-Macedonians wouldnt be around. They would either be 6 feet under or locked up in jail.

[BigMak]

Before we got to that humiliating fork in the road there's the little matter about what really happened in Aracinovo...

A very strong 'rumour' at the time was that Macedonia's special forces had the leadership in Aricinovo 'on toast' so to speak and when the 'evidence' was brought to Trajkovski, he shit his pants...then all of a sudden Solana is driving a convoy of terrorist buses out of Aracinovo...

As commander of Macedonian forces the order should have been to leave nothing but a pile of rubble in what was Aracinovo...today we find ourselves in somewhat of a mess...that battle in Aracinovo was a turning point moment in our history, sadly the wrong decision was made...

When I think of Trajkovski, I can't stop thinking of the existence of that cosmic force that they call Karma...

It was not a rumor it is undeniable fact that this happened.

The questions are still outstanding

1. From who did trajkovski receive the order for our troops to stop

2. who allowed Nato helicopters to fly in a restricted zone, (under control of the Macedonian special forces) 12 US mercenaries where picked up and flown out, followed by 2 buses from Kosovo to pick up the rest of the KLA terrorists a total of 392 people.

3. Who is responsible for the Ohrid Agreement, I highly doubt it was envisaged by Trajkovski or any other Macedonian Goon

[Risto the Great]

BM,
amongst other things, the 3 points raised above compromised the integrity of a sovereign nation. This would not be tolerated in any country who has citizens with a sense of self worth.

[Warrior]

Many Macedonians were involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the beginning - it has its' foundations with DOOM. Boris Zmejkovski, for example, was also involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the very beginning.

Do you wish to imply that this suggests he also had a pro-Bulgarian view? That couldn't be further from the truth - he was the most pro-Macedonian of all, and still is.

Nikola Gruevski was barely 21 in 1991 and was still a student. He wasn't involved with politics at that time. He also does not have a pro-Bulgarian leaning, unlike some of his predecessors and allegedly his colleagues.


The pro-Bulgarian view or lobby within the ranks of VMRO-DPMNE has about 5-10% of the VMRO-DPMNE membership; that is, some 30,000 or so people.

Whilst the pro-Serbian view or lobby within the ranks of SDSM has about 10-15% of the SDSM membership; that is, some 20,000 or so people.

Gruevski wasnt 21 during the conflict when Lupco declared his allegience to the Bulgarians and was working on dissecting Macedonia. He also got lot of cash from the Albanians for allowing Kosovar to stay in Maco and removing all the official police from the Western villages in Macedonia. Even today there is no permament presence of police in those villages. When they need to arrest a citizen of Macedonia they need the special forces to enter those villages.

Since 91 VMRO is synomonous with acts that are closer to the pro Bulgarian movement than not. I am not saying they are havent shown pro-Macedonian movement, but the shine of that movement is taken off when you think about VMRO and their leader sitting in the Bulgarian government and him saying we are Bulgarians!!! Also the other day Ivanov reiterated that closeness. We are rewarding a guy that negates the existence of our minority there. Its similar like rewarding Jeff Kennett!! It doesnt add up.... If that is the party that is serving our interests then Macedonia has a long way to go. I am still standing on the fact that Gruevski was part of the government that Lupco led and he nor the other members never stood aside and warn the people of what they were cooking such as breaking up the country. Now he is a patriot dressed in a different suit...In the real world, if Lupco murdered someone than Gruevski would have been charged with being an accomplice to a murder. Yet we have him as a leader and also he free to work with the terrorist and implment the the agreement. Is that serving Macedonian interests??? Most peple are blinded with being party followers than looking at the party policies and interests.


Anyways no one is going to change my mind about VMRO and SDSM, they are corrupt parties that i am not sure thay they have Macedonian interests at heart. Past events are clear indicators!!

[Warrior]

Many Macedonians were involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the beginning - it has its' foundations with DOOM. Boris Zmejkovski, for example, was also involved with VMRO-DPMNE from the very beginning.

Do you wish to imply that this suggests he also had a pro-Bulgarian view? That couldn't be further from the truth - he was the most pro-Macedonian of all, and still is.

Nikola Gruevski was barely 21 in 1991 and was still a student. He wasn't involved with politics at that time. He also does not have a pro-Bulgarian leaning, unlike some of his predecessors and allegedly his colleagues.


The pro-Bulgarian view or lobby within the ranks of VMRO-DPMNE has about 5-10% of the VMRO-DPMNE membership; that is, some 30,000 or so people.

Whilst the pro-Serbian view or lobby within the ranks of SDSM has about 10-15% of the SDSM membership; that is, some 20,000 or so people.

I am not sure how you got those figures, but lets go along with them. Imagine in the current Israeli government there is 20K current voting members that have leaning towards the Nazis. Would that party exist in Israel? I dont differentiate between Nazism and what the Serbs did to Macedonina people before WWII and what the Bulgarians have been doing since 1913. Do we need parties to inspire such followers?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good points made Warrior.

[Rogi]

Warrior, I'm not going to disagree with you, because I agree with you.

Though, saying everyone involved in VMRO-DPMNE in 1998-2001 had a pro-Bulgarian view is completely inaccurate.

Think of that in a historical context, when the historical VMRO had traitors to the Macedonian cause at its' helm, you cannot say that all of VMRO was pro-Bulgarian because of say, Vancho Mihajlov, etc.

Also, our history is somewhat different to that of the Jews though. Whereas their tragedy was a case of the enemy outright trying to exterminate them, ours is a little more complex, involving assimilation, appropriation and extermination.

Unfortunately, this has left certain fringes of our people in a confused state, who are easily manipulated by our neighbours who still continue their agenda of wiping out the Macedonian people and identity.

[BigMak]

Unfortunately, this has left certain fringes of our people in a confused state, who are easily manipulated by our neighbours who still continue their agenda of wiping out the Macedonian people and identity.

These people have no role in Macedonian society they play no part or have no allegiance to the Macedonian nation

they are preduvnici

we dont need them nor should they be mentioned, they are co-inhabitants of a terrorist nature.