Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Bratot]

Buktop said:

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

Where have you read this crap, make a exact quotation where our government stated such thing "No name change for EU" although your claim was already debunked by the articles and quotes I provided.

Don't be a pussy Buktop!

[Vangelovski]

Hmm, so in the thread where you specifically questioned my definitions of State and Nationalism, and you refered me to full texts and "scholarly works" on the subject rather than specifically identifying and siting evidence to support your specific points of contention, even though I asked for specific evidence, was ok, but now, even though I did provide you with a specific thread, and then went ahead and provided specific examples in post #229, you want me to go even further and do your homework for you?

In your reply to me (post #210) you stated


Now, given the thread I provided to you, and even further elaboration in post #229, can you please specifically identify what you specifically disagree with?

Those books were specifically on the topic of nationalism - which you have a zero understanding of and therefore needed to read the entire works.

The thread you provided me consists of lots of random comments that have nothing to do with the claim you made.

[Buktop]

I read the articles you gave as references and I didn't find what you claimed in here!

Now if you are so kind in agitating bullshits, why don't you provide the original QUOTATION of your claim?

If those who believe that with easy and rash concessions with respect to the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia we will contribute to the strengthening of our national dignity, I deem they should question themselves, because pressures will not simply stop here. The ongoing dispute involves not only the name and the dispute has a concealed agenda, which gradually becomes more open, to harm the national and language identity of the Macedonian people. As politicians, journalists and citizens of Macedonia we have a sovereign right based on international norms and also an obligation to protect our national dignity

Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki told the BBC News website his country's soldiers had already played their part in Afghanistan.

"If other Nato countries, including Greece, do not mind when our soldiers employed in Afghanistan wear on their uniforms the name of our country, Macedonia, and our flag why would Greece mind if we joined the alliance after we have fulfilled all the relevant criteria?"

YouTube - Prime minister Nikola Gruevski - Macedonia - Greece

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/tag/nikola-gruevski/

Prime minister Nikola Gruevski’s party VMRO DPMNE has advocated finding a compromise name, but only if it “would not affect national identity.” Greece has suggested that its neighbour adds a geographical determinant to its name, but Macedonians fear this would threaten their identity by changing the name of their language and nationality.

i.e. what Greece wants is not acceptable to Macedonians and DPMNE

The survey result hints at what may be the outcome of the referendum on the name issue that Mr Gruevski’s government promised in its pre-election campaign. A majority of the country’s population – 62 percent – is in favour of calling a referendum, the poll demonstrated. Among those who oppose a referendum is a group of “hardliners”, who believe no compromise should be considered on the country’s name. Still, 77 percent of Macedonian citizens said they would vote if a referendum is organised.

We said to Greece, ‘We want to make a compromise. We want to find solutions,’ so we can become a member of NATO and the EU. Compromise means both sides make moves, not just one side to make concessions and the other side to have a victory.

i.e. Greece must recognize the Identity/integrity/language/history of the Macedonian people and state.

We have been and will be facing obstacles. Quite simply the fate of our country is such that we face more obstacles than other countries. Evidently, the Macedonian issue still overwhelms the Balkans i.e. certain countries on the Balkans. Sometimes it seems to me that we are living in the 19th century, not in the 21st century. Certain demands, especially from Greece, resemble those as far as from the 19th century or the early 20th century and not from the onset of the 21st century. We will find the strength to deal with it, we’ll find the strength to overcome the issues. There are countries that support us and the EU cannot forever tolerate this issue,

He said that through its actions Greece was in a way spending its credit. Gruevski said that “this credit has its beginning and its end and one day it will expire”.

- Greece cannot do this forever. Hence, Macedonia will keep on making efforts – we have a clearly defined Euro-Atlantic agenda, which we strive to fulfill, stated the Macedonian PM.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/1312/52/

Focusing on the dispute regarding Macedonia's constitutional name, VMRO-DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski in his speech noted that "VMRO-DPMNE doesn't concur with amending the Constitution in order to enable change of the constitutional name.

Any idea or proposal could be reviewed or approved only after the majority of citizens will give the go-ahead for change at a referendum, said Gruevski.

Do you really want me to continue posting sources? Should I draw the conclusions for you?

[Buktop]

Buktop said:

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

Where have you read this crap, make a exact quotation where our government stated such thing "No name change for EU" although your claim was already debunked by the articles and quotes I provided.

Don't be a pussy Buktop!

Who the hell do you think you are? I really have to thank you for proving my point about what an uneducated child you really are.

Come back and talk to me once you reach puberty tough guy.

[Buktop]

Those books were specifically on the topic of nationalism - which you have a zero understanding of and therefore needed to read the entire works.

The thread you provided me consists of lots of random comments that have nothing to do with the claim you made.

Once again just incase you missed it, I asked you specifically what points in my definitions you disagreed with, you failed to identify them, and in a vague attempt to discredit me, you thought it woul be a good idea to post a list of "scholarly works", again, without identifying what exactly was wrong with the definitions I applied.

Please read post #229 and you can see a handful of the mountain of supporting evidence to my assertions, now if you could PLEASE specifically identify what you specifically disagree with?

[Bratot]

Prime minister Nikola Gruevski’s party VMRO DPMNE has advocated finding a compromise name, but only if it “would not affect national identity.” Greece has suggested that its neighbour adds a geographical determinant to its name, but Macedonians fear this would threaten their identity by changing the name of their language and nationality.

i.e. what Greece wants is not acceptable to Macedonians and DPMNE

Originally Posted by Gruevski May 12, 2010
We said to Greece, ‘We want to make a compromise. We want to find solutions,’ so we can become a member of NATO and the EU. Compromise means both sides make moves, not just one side to make concessions and the other side to have a victory.

i.e. Greece must recognize the Identity/integrity/language/history of the Macedonian people and state.

Do you really want me to continue posting sources? Should I draw the conclusions for you?

Are you so retarded or you are hard working to become one?

Again your claim:

Buktop said:

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

It is pretty much clear that DPMNE will change the name,this way or other way irrespective of what patriotic bulshit they try to sell about the dignity and history.

Only a fool as yourself will believe that Greeks have a problem with the name of the State and only a fool can believe that Gruevski is a patriot to propose a compromise on the name with preserving the identity.

The referendum is only a trap to give a legitimity of the name change without having any responcibility left for the political leaders, so they could continue their careers without any concequences in future.
All of them lying the people!

The conclussion: You failed to provide the specific reference for your specific claim.

[Bratot]

Who the hell do you think you are? I really have to thank you for proving my point about what an uneducated child you really are.

Come back and talk to me once you reach puberty tough guy.

Ochh I'm sorry Mr. Ph.D. Buktop, please continue with your agenda...

Listen me carefully you propagandist scum, who am I is less important, what I care is the truth and reasonableness on the issues essential for us Macedonians, therefore Mr. Ph.D., I will continue being respectless toward you.

[julie]

Bratot you are an awesome dude, very intelligent and educated.
I think Buktop may be a mite not happy with you sometimes people get angry becuase you may have the achilles heel?
keep up the good work Bratot, I enjoy the informative posts

Buktop, stop being so angry all the time, if your energy is harnessed in assisting, just think of what can be achieved, you strike me as an intelligent man, and with some consideration, you can do much to help our cause

[Soldier of Macedon]

The garbage that has polluted this thread, ends now. Any off-topic or insulting posts will be deleted. And if this persists, I will lock the thread until you all calm down.

[Buktop]

Are you so retarded or you are hard working to become one?

Again your claim:



It is pretty much clear that DPMNE will change the name,this way or other way irrespective of what patriotic bulshit they try to sell about the dignity and history.

Only a fool as yourself will believe that Greeks have a problem with the name of the State and only a fool can believe that Gruevski is a patriot to propose a compromise on the name with preserving the identity.

The referendum is only a trap to give a legitimity of the name change without having any responcibility left for the political leaders, so they could continue their careers without any concequences in future.
All of them lying the people!

The conclussion: You failed to provide the specific reference for your specific claim.

"VMRO DPMNE has advocated finding a compromise name, but only if it “would not affect national identity.” Greece has suggested that its neighbour adds a geographical determinant to its name, but Macedonians fear this would threaten their identity by changing the name of their language and nationality."

Do you know what the term National Identity means? The depiction of a country as a whole, encompassing its culture, traditions, language, and politics. This statement by DPMNE is quite literally an oxymoron, it is a trick phrase because you cannot change the name without changing or affecting the National Identity. Given the other quotes I have provided by Milososki and Gruevski, the government is obviously aware of that fact.

[Rogi]

Buktop, I disagree with your above assertion.

Countries have changed their names throughout the last 50 years or so, adding prefixes, suffixes or even entire official name changes.

Here are some examples:

Burkina Faso: Name was changed from Upper Volta on 6 August 1984

Cambodia: Name was changed to the Khmer Republic on 7 October 1970, and back to Cambodia on 30 April 1975. Name was changed again to Democratic Kampuchea on 6 April 1976, and back to Cambodia on 3 February 1990.

Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Brazzaville) (to differentiate it from Congo (Leopoldville)) and the People's Republic of the Congo. Name was changed to Congo on 15 November 1971 (after the Democratic Republic of the Congo changed its name to Zaire). Also referred to as Congo (Republic of the)

Côte d'Ivoire: Previously referred to as Ivory Coast. On 6 November 1985, Côte d’lvoire requested that its name no longer be translated into different languages; this became fully effective on 1 January 1986

Democratic Republic of the Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Leopoldville) (to differentiate it from Congo (Brazzaville)). Name was changed from the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Zaire on 27 October 1971, and back to the Democratic Republic of the Congo on 17 May 1997

Iran (Islamic Republic of): Previously referred to as Iran. By a communication of 5 March 1981, Iran informed the Secretary-General that it should be referred to by its complete name of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Lao People's Democratic Republic: Name was changed from Laos on 2 December 1975.

Madagascar: Previously referred to as the Malagasy Republic.

Myanmar: Name was changed from Burma on 18 June 1989

Republic of Moldova: Previously referred to as Moldova

Sri Lanka: Name was changed from Ceylon on 22 May 1972

Thailand: Previously referred to as Siam

Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of): Previously referred to as Venezuela



I am not sure if you can argue that all, if any, of the name changes listed above, and indeed all the others that I did not list, resulted in a change in, or affected, the national identity of those states?

Therefore I do not think you should be as confident as you are in your own assessment that the current Government will not change the name, despite continually talking about compromise and mutually accepted solutions, by dismissing that as an oxymoron because they say they do not want the 'solution' to 'affect national identity'.

[Buktop]

Buktop, I disagree with your above assertion.

Countries have changed their names throughout the last 50 years or so, adding prefixes, suffixes or even entire official name changes.

Here are some examples:

Burkina Faso: Name was changed from Upper Volta on 6 August 1984
The Republic of Upper Volta (French: République de Haute-Volta) was established on December 11, 1958, as a self-governing colony within the French Community. The name Upper Volta indicated that the country contains the upper part of the Volta River. The river is divided into three parts, called the Black Volta, White Volta and Red Volta, and the colors of the national flag corresponded to the parts of the river. After successive military coup's and civil unrest, not to mention political changes in statehood and government, the country's name was eventually changed from Upper Volta to Burkina Faso, which translates to "land of honest people"
Cambodia: Name was changed to the Khmer Republic on 7 October 1970, and back to Cambodia on 30 April 1975. Name was changed again to Democratic Kampuchea on 6 April 1976, and back to Cambodia on 3 February 1990. A citizen of Cambodia is usually identified as "Cambodian" or "Khmer", though they strictly refer to ethnic Khmers. The name was changed to Khmer Republic due to a coup by the Khmer Rouge rebels under Pol Pot. With the assistance of Vietnamese soldiers another coup occurred. The People's Republic of Kampuchea, a Pro-Soviet state led by the Salvation Front, a group of Cambodian leftists dissatisfied with the Khmer Rouge, was established. Cambodia was reestablished only after a UN brokered peace agreement between the Khmer, and Kampuchea parties creating a joint Cambodian state.

Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Brazzaville) (to differentiate it from Congo (Leopoldville)) and the People's Republic of the Congo. Name was changed to Congo on 15 November 1971 (after the Democratic Republic of the Congo changed its name to Zaire). Also referred to as Congo (Republic of the)Massamba-Débat was unable to reconcile various institutional and ideological factions and his regime was ended abruptly with an August 1968 coup d'état. Marien Ngouabi, who had participated in the coup, assumed the presidency on December 31, 1968. One year later, President Ngouabi proclaimed Congo to be Africa's first "people's republic" and announced the decision of the National Revolutionary Movement to change its name to the Congolese Labour Party (PCT)

Côte d'Ivoire: Previously referred to as Ivory Coast. On 6 November 1985, Côte d’lvoire requested that its name no longer be translated into different languages; this became fully effective on 1 January 1986 This is not a name change, it is a domestic policy to prevent the name from being translated, and have it only called by the one French version

Democratic Republic of the Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Leopoldville) (to differentiate it from Congo (Brazzaville)). Name was changed from the Democratic Republic of the Congo to Zaire on 27 October 1971, and back to the Democratic Republic of the Congo on 17 May 1997 Over 10 different individual and combined civil wars, coups and assassinations lead to successive name changes and political changes.

Iran (Islamic Republic of): Previously referred to as Iran. By a communication of 5 March 1981, Iran informed the Secretary-General that it should be referred to by its complete name of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Iran's Shah Reza Pahlavi was deposed during the Iranian revolution and the Islamic Cleric Ayatollah Khomeini took control and changed it to an Islamic legal system.

Lao People's Democratic Republic: Name was changed from Laos on 2 December 1975. A long civil war ended officially when the Communist Pathet Lao movement came to power in 1975

Madagascar: Previously referred to as the Malagasy Republic. Referred to as Malagasy under French colonial rule

Myanmar: Name was changed from Burma on 18 June 1989 The name "Burma" is derived from the Burmese word "Bamar", which in turn is the colloquial form of Myanmar (or Mranma in old Burmese), both of which historically referred to the majority Burmans. In 1989, the military government officially changed the English translations of many colonial-era names, including the name of the country to "Myanmar". While most of the name changes are closer to their actual Burmese pronunciations, many opposition groups and countries continue to oppose their use in English because they recognise neither the legitimacy of the ruling military government nor its authority to rename the country or towns in English.

Republic of Moldova: Previously referred to as Moldova
Name change representative of successive government changes and political ideology from Communist/socialist, to parliamentary democracy.
Sri Lanka: Name was changed from Ceylon on 22 May 1972
The Dominion of Ceylon, known today as Sri Lanka, was a dominion, and later realm, in the Commonwealth of Nations between 1948 and 1972. In 1948, British Ceylon was granted independence as the Dominion of Ceylon. In 1972, the Dominion of Ceylon became a republic within the Commonwealth, and its name was changed to Sri Lanka.
Thailand: Previously referred to as Siam
The country's official name was Siam until June 23, 1939, when it was changed to Thailand. It was then renamed Siam from 1945 to May 11, 1949, after which it was again renamed Thailand. This occurred, of course, due to several coup's from political parties choosing whether to side with Allied or Axis powers during WW2, and power struggles afterward.
Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of): Previously referred to as Venezuela
In 1998, Chávez was elected president. His reform program, which he later called the "Bolivarian Revolution", was aimed at redistributing the benefits of Venezuela's oil wealth to the lower socio-economic groups, Simon Bolivar was one of the original liberators of Venezuela from Gran Colombia

As we can clearly see, the list you have provided includes name changes due to: Civil war, tribal conflict, coup d'etat, political change, independence movements, and the liberation of colonized territories. None of these instances of name changes specifically deal with the same aspect's of changing a National Identity, i.e. the culture, traditions, language. The politics aspect of these name changes is specifically linked to the use of force in it's domestic movements. Quite simply, the situation we face in Macedonia is different then any of the instances you have provided.

I am not sure if you can argue that all, if any, of the name changes listed above, and indeed all the others that I did not list, resulted in a change in, or affected, the national identity of those states?

As I stated above, the circumstances found in the examples you gave are different from the current Macedonian situation because we here have an external force (Greece) claiming that RoM and the Macedonian people do not have the right to exist as a distinct ethnic group, and are trying to terminate the national link between Macedonians and the name Macedonia. There are no instances of external forced alteration of national ethnicity's in the examples you posted above.

I am sure there is a name change or two out there that you could possibly apply to the Macedonian situation, such as the Republic of China (Taiwan) vs People's Republic of China.

Therefore I do not think you should be as confident as you are in your own assessment that the current Government will not change the name, despite continually talking about compromise and mutually accepted solutions, by dismissing that as an oxymoron because they say they do not want the 'solution' to 'affect national identity'.

As I have stated previously, I have never ruled out a name change as a possibility, I personally see the chances of a voluntary name change as slim to none. I encourage the MHRMI/AMHRC campaign, and view it as a highly beneficial program, especially if the government decides to follow through with putting a new name to a referendum.

The current dilemma is that Greece's red line is nothing short of using Macedonia as a geographic identifier in our state name. This means the literal separation of the name Macedonia from our ethnicity and our nationality, and as I said before, reason leads me to believe that the government doesn't have the cojones to follow through with that course of action.

[Bratot]

Those who haven't learned from their mistakes...... please finish the saying Buktop, after you read an example of the political whores:


1.

19 мај 2005

ЉУБОМИР ФРЧКОСКИ: ЗА ИМЕТО НЕМА МЕСТО ЗА КОМПРОМИС!

За името нема место за компромис. Проблемот околу името е што немаме што да дадеме, тоа ни е. Едно име имаме. Нимиц не разбира дека тоа не е прашање за име, туку за идентитет.

Проблем е што во Министерството нема кој да направи стратегија за името, изјави вчера професорот по меѓунардно право Љубомир Фрчкоски, на предавањето на членовите на Демократско-републиканската партија на Македонија.

Циркусот околу името, како што го нарекува Фрчкоски, започнал пред точно 14 години. Се провлекувал во Европската унија и Обединетите нации, кои на два пати направиле вистински преседан во меѓународното право преку поставување дополнителни услови за признавање на државата.

Како да се реши проблемот? - Разговорите во Њујорк се привремени. Ние немаме обврска да постигнеме спогодба, туку само да учествуваме во разговорите. Значи ние само треба да кажеме дека нема резултат од нив, и да го симнеме прашањето на техничко ниво.
Да се нотифицира генералниот секретар на ОН дека нашето уставно име е Република Македонија и ако се нафатиме и да предложиме Резолуција во Советот за безбедност. Политички, потоа, треба да извршиме притисок за признавање на уставното име во Советот на Европа и во Европската унија, - е идејата на Фрчкоски.

Тој смета дека проблем во Македонија е што земјава е "премногу толерантна со луѓето, кои работат за туѓи интереси”.

http://www.smk-wmc.org/index.asp?con...d=877&vlang=mk

2.

понеделник, 16 октомври 2006


Ексминистерот вели дека двојната формула е последен предлог за Нимиц
Македонија не смее да ги толерира квислинзите за името, смета Фрчкоски
Ексминистерот за надворешни работи, Љубомир Фрчкоски, Ј порача вчера на Владата дека ќе биде среќен ако таа му каже на Метју Нимиц дека двојната формула е последен предлог од Македонија и дека е време преговорите во Њујорк да завршат.

Според негови оцени, Македонија е премногу толерантна спрема своите внатрешни квислинзи, кои отворено работат за грчки интереси, па и не го кријат тоа.

http://217.16.70.245/?pBroj=1780&stID=36302&pR=2

3. 18 декември 2007

Постои ли дилема дали Македонија реално е соочена со изборот името или НАТО.

„Таа дилема е грчки производ“, вели екс-министерката за надворешни работи Илинка Митрева. „Прво, затоа што промената на името на нашата држава ќе значи еднаш и засекогаш прифаќање на една погубна филозофија што во континуитет ја следи судбината на Македонците - негирање на македонската нација, на македонскиот јазик, на македонската историја, а оттаму и негирање на македонската држава. И не само од страна на нашиот јужен сосед. Уставното име на Република Македонија не е фирма. Тоа име сме сите ние, тоа е нашето постоење - вчера, денес и утре. Прифаќањето на промената на уставното име Република Македонија значи откажување од нашето постоење.

„Времето, секако, работи за нас“, вели Фрчковски на прашањето дали стратегијата „времето работи за нас“ се покажа како погрешна или не. „Дали мислите дека 120 земји-членки што не' признале под уставното име е неуспех, дали вреди преку тоа да плукнеме? Ние сме платиле голема цена за таа стратегија и не смееме сега да плукаме на тоа плаќање на цена само затоа што на власт е некој што не ни е симпатичен“.

Според него, „не смееме да се делиме внатре по основа дали можеби можеме да расправаме за промена на името. Нека се изложат директно во јавност луѓето што мислат дека треба тоа да се направи. Нема разумни аргументи, тоа е едноставно веднење глава по 15 години борба кога сега дојдовме до моментот да ја издржиме последната игра. Тоа не смее да ни се случи. Ние играта ќе ја одиграме до крај“.

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=D...2CDF36181FC636

4.
Branko before:

10.04.2005

Грчкиот претседател Каролјос Папуљас со порака до македонските власти дека наводниот предлог на Метју Нимиц Република Македонија Скопје е добра можност која Македонија треба да ја искористи и со тоа да го поддржи мирот и безбедноста на балканот.

Изјавата на Папуљас за името дојде само неколку часа откако македонскиот претседател Црвенковски најави дека доколку овој предлог навистина дојде од Нимиц истиот ќе биде одбиен.„Нашата опција е единствена, тоа е уставното име или во тој дел презентираниот предлог за нас е неприфатлив“, вели Бранко Црвенковски.



How then, this "nationalism" of theirs and the position of defending the identity by not changing the name has changed now?

If you haven't noticed their positions were identical with those of VMRO today!

If you haven't noticed even today Gruevski and Branko Crvenkovski are saying EXACTLY the same thing:

"VMRO DPMNE has advocated finding a compromise name, but only if it “would not affect national identity.” by Nikola Gruevski

2008
"Би можеле да најдеме формулација со додавка или придавка која не го урива нашиот национален идентитет"

"We could find a formulation with a addition or an adjective which does not break down our national identity" by Branko Crvenkovski

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=8F3A48CDB955F644A7A4BD6004640FF2

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1&EditionID=1343&ArticleID=86773

and yet just before (2007) he walked throu the UN saying:

"My country is and will remain the Republic of Macedonia," at the end of his speech, President Branko Crvenkovski

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=6CA5B228AC835B4287D605F0995D033A

Now some SDSM agitator Buktop_2 will appear and claim that this statement of SDSM and their former ministers and present propagators for a name change is "literally an oxymoron".

[Buktop]

Bratot, may I ask you, after DPMNE took control and SDS stepped down, do you notice a difference in any policies? Would you say that DPMNE and SDS have the same goal in mind when concerning the name?

I think Phoenix put it very well in another thread,

I honestly believe that its a problem that exists because of nothing more than a petty form of primal political opportunism...I don't believe any Macedonian political party or representative of the Macedonian people is prepared to go down in history as the one(s) who sold our identity, the one(s) who committed the greatest treason in our history

[Phoenix]

Bratot, may I ask you, after DPMNE took control and SDS stepped down, do you notice a difference in any policies? Would you say that DPMNE and SDS have the same goal in mind when concerning the name?

I think Phoenix put it very well in another thread,

Buktop, although it's my personal belief that it's unlikely that any Macedonian man or organization will temp fate by accepting and enforcing a name change on the Macedonian people and their homeland it is not beyond the realms of possibility that such traitors exist and it is this element of doubt that should motivate all of us to be vigilant and prepared to fight in defence of this possibility