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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    Goldstone rejects Israel protests

    A timely discussion I suppose:
    UN human rights investigator Richard Goldstone has rejected Israel's claim that the peace process would be harmed by his report on the offensive in Gaza.

    Judge Goldstone said there was no peace process at present and Israel's foreign minister did not want there to be one.

    The Goldstone report, which has been endorsed by the UN Human Rights Council, accuses both Israel and Hamas militants of committing war crimes.

    Mr Goldstone's remarks came in a conference call with American rabbis.

    "It's a shallow, utterly false allegation," Mr Goldstone said of Israel's attempt to brand his report as an obstacle to peace.

    "What peace process are they talking about? There isn't one. The Israeli foreign minister doesn't want one," Mr Goldstone said.

    "If the Israeli government set up an appropriate, open investigation, it will really be the end of the matter. That's where the report would end as far as Israel is concerned," he added.

    He was speaking days after Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman spoke of his belief that the Arab-Israeli conflict would not be resolved in the coming years, and people should "learn to live with it".

    Palestinians and human rights groups say more than 1,400 Gazans were killed in the 22-day conflict that ended in January, but Israel puts the figure at 1,166. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians, were killed.

    In the report, Mr Goldstone calls for the war crimes allegations to be referred to the International Criminal Court at The Hague unless the parties to the Gaza war investigate them.

    If the report comes before the UN Security Council, the US is expected to veto any call for ICC action against Israel.

    Favourable

    On Tuesday, Israel's Security Cabinet hardened the country's rejection of an independent inquiry.

    Earlier reports said discussion about setting up an inquiry had been on the agenda of the meeting, which brings together seven ministers with security responsibilities.

    However, an official said it was blocked by Defence Minister Ehud Barak, an architect of Israel's winter onslaught, supported by Benjamin Netanyahu, who was elected prime minister in March.

    Both men have called the UN report one-sided and said it undermined Israel's right to defend itself. They argue internal investigations by the Israeli military are already dealing with a small number of violations.

    "Our struggle is to delegitimize the continuing attempt to delegitimize the state of Israel. The most important sphere we need to work in is the sphere of public opinion in the democratic world," Mr Netanyahu was quoted telling the cabinet.

    Foreign and justice ministry officials are reported to favour setting up an investigation in the hope of defusing an international row which is widely seen to have done damage to Israel's reputation.

    Instead, ministers agreed on the establishment a legal-diplomatic panel to handle any possible war crimes prosecutions against Israel or its citizens.

    Separately, Palestinian Authority President and Fatah party leader Mahmoud Abbas has been holding talks in Cairo with Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak.

    It is the latest in a long-running process attempting to reach a reconciliation deal between Fatah and the other main Palestinian faction, Hamas.

    Aides of Mr Abbas have accused Hamas, which runs Gaza, of shirking a commitment to sign the Egyptian-mediated agreement after Fatah signed it.

    Hamas says it will sign the document as long as there are no clauses added that have not been agreed.

    It said its previous request for a postponement was to give it time to study new Egyptian proposals, and to comment on the Goldstone report.
    BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Thanks RtG.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Prolet
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 5241

        What war crimes?? Its funny actually the Palestinian army doesnt have one tank, have have small arms weapons. Israel has the most advanced technology, its a total mismatch
        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          I remember speaking with an Israeli guy once. He told me the Palestinian kids are paid by the kilo by Hamas to throw rocks at the Israelis. He was telling me to shock me I suppose. I just felt sorry for the kids and sorry for displaced Palestinians.

          I try to think what I would do if I had no options and was looking at people living on my ancestral lands.

          On the other hand, the Israeli (Russian named and fluent Russian speaker) told me that the Palestinians abandoned their land, then once the Israelis moved in and developed the land, the Palestinians demand the land back. I did not know how to take that. It may have some substance, but still sounds a little Israeli-centric to me.

          Does anyone believe the Israelis are reasonable about this obvious dispute?
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Jankovska
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1774

            As I have mentioned before i have nothing but great experiences and good words for Jewish people. I respect them and most of the time i wish we were like them.
            When it comes to Irsael and the power they are demonstrating i think not that it's just wrong it should be made unaccaptable.But Israel is a fake country, who made it? Regarding Kosovo (another fake country)do we just blame the Albanians? Do you think they alone could have taken the Serbs?Do you think the Jews alone could have takne on the Muslim world? The US and Co played this game very clever, what best way to control the Muslim world than stick your own power in the middle of it?Now the Jews are there, their promised land and they need to stay there? Why? Because America needs them to stay there so America will arm them and make sure they are untouchable.
            After the make od Israel the Jews found themselves on their promised land which i bet most regreted, that's why lots moved out. They found themselves in a situation in which Macedonia is, surrounded by countries that have nothing but full hate for them. So Isral has to defend itself. If we look at the situation now we can say easy that Israel has commited major war crimes but if we look at history we will find the right ones to blame for whhat is happening now, the ones who put Israel there. I see both people as victims here

            Comment

            • Gj. Puleski
              Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 61

              [QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25283]

              Pulja, you probably don't see well, check the search option at the top of the main screen, type in a keyword, then search.

              When you add to someone's reputation you are automatically deducted $10,000 and a complimentary bottle of red is sent to the reputee. Either that, or nothing but a green square is added onto the reputee, one of the other admins such as Daskalot or Orovnichanec would know more about this.

              And the answer of the trird question?

              Comment

              • Daskalot
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 4345

                Originally posted by Gj. Puleski View Post
                Zdravo, Soldier,

                1. I do not see here a possibility to search the site by words.
                Im I right, or I don't see well.

                And one more question.

                2. When I add to someone's reputation, what hapens! Does he/she det a green square?

                3. And tte last one: what does mean "senior member"?

                Thank you in advance for the answer.
                1. In the top most row of this forum just below the forum logo, there are some quick-links, one of them is "SEARCH" click on it and you will be able to search the forum.

                2. You are correct, when you add to someones reputation they will get a green square as a gift from you.

                3. It means that you have been a member here for some time and have a certain post count, the longer and more posts you have that is how you become a senior member.

                I hope this answers all of your questions Puleski.
                Macedonian Truth Organisation

                Comment

                • Gj. Puleski
                  Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 61

                  Ти благодарам, Даскал, сега се е јасно. Поздрав!

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Risto the Great
                    Does anyone believe the Israelis are reasonable about this obvious dispute?
                    Reasonable? I think the suggestion that Palestinians left their lands willingly, and then wanted them back after the Jews developed them, is a load of garbage. Of course I am willing to be proved wrong should Shmuel, Pulja or anybody else wish to corroborate the opposite. Can they?

                    We discussed this issue in length a while back during the more recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

                    What a disaster of a situation, as a Macedonian I can see similarities with both sides, and I choose no side here because it is a touchy situation. I understand the right of Israel to defend its people and state, but I also understand the Palestinians and their suffering. Does anybody have more information with regard to the


                    Back then I wrote:
                    ........as a Macedonian I can see similarities with both sides, and I choose no side here because it is a touchy situation. I understand the right of Israel to defend its people and state, but I also understand the Palestinians and their suffering.......
                    I think Palestinian organisations (none of whom have the support of all the Palestinian people) have fallen well short in serving their people so they can realize the Palestinian state, that goes for Fatah, Hamas, etc, each have done a little, but not nearly enough. There are so many factions and divisions, they resemble the Macedonian people during the Ottoman period, and so does their desperation (See Gemidzhi). What lets them down is their extremism, I am no friend of Islamic extremism, but I don't consider myself an enemy of Islam. I understand and respect the right of the Palestinian people to have a homeland, and as difficult as it may be for themselves, they have to extend the same respect of right to the Israelis, as from 1948 Israel is a reality and there is no changing this.
                    Pulja, quick tell Shmuel, god forbid the Macedonians discussing such issues. That is one thing I do not agree with, the Macedonians have suffered immensely through the last couple of centuries at the hands of their neighbours and so-called 'brothers', yet the issue can be discussed freely, with sharp and opposing views. Bring up WWII and the Jews and all of a sudden it is tabboo, that is just plain wrong. I for one do not deny the suffering that the Jews went through during WWII, but I will not hold back the opinion of others, particularly when it can assist in bringing about a more complete and objective picture to the whole story.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Gj. Puleski
                      Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 61

                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      Now you are pleasantly surprised that Jews are "so nice people". GP, all I want from contributors to this forum is for them to be honest. What you are saying is that your pre-conception of Jews was such that they are not nice, but now that Jankovska said they were nice ... it is a pleasant surprise to you. If I was a Jew I would be far from happy with your logic. In fact, it is almost like you are lying to us.

                      p.s. Sam Vaknin is in a position advising the Macedonian Government. How on Earth is it appropriate that he rope this forum in on a Nazi witch hunt based on a few comments by a few contributors? What agenda is he pursuing when he advises the Macedonian Government? Can we assume he will be insisting on Israeli products as part of the health care recommendations. He sounds extremely compromised to me. He was hardly objective when he sensationalised comments by 3 forum participants on this forum. Who knows how he does his business given his inability to weigh opinion appropriately.
                      Здраво, Ристо,

                      I suppose that for most of us who did not have closer relations to Jews, the idea we have of them is based on several stereotypical “pictures”, like:

                      -the one of Jews being continuously banned and pogromed throughout history;
                      -the one of the greedy, corrupt and manipulative Jew;
                      -the one of the terrble suffering of the Jews during the WW2;
                      -the one of the Jews occupying the home land of the Palestinians … and so on.

                      So, having no personal experience with Jews (and a subconsciousness formed by above mentioned stereotypes) for me it was realy a surprising news what Jankovska said about them, that they are so nice people. In the same time, for me there was another surprising news in her story – her unpleasant experience with our zemjaci Macedonians …

                      Regarding your second question. As far as I know, Mr. Vaknin is not advising the the Macedonian Government. He is only helping in the Steering Comitee for Advancement of the Health Sistem of RM. He is doeing a great job there and he is doeing that on voluntary basis. So, if you so much need to say something negative about him, and in the same time to keep you reputation, then please be more specific and argumented. I myself would support your criticism toward Vaknin, but it should be about something which is more than just gossip.
                      Last edited by Gj. Puleski; 10-21-2009, 10:02 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        Do his article's constitute as gossip, or is it only when you are relaying his words they should be viewed as gospel?

                        You have already contradicted yourself. Why was it "suprising" to find that Jews are nice people? Are you a victim of the same stereotype you accuse others of having?

                        Why is it "suprising" that a Macedonian has had unpleasant experiences with other Macedonians? What is your definition of suprising? Or is it something fluid that you can mould as you see fit?

                        For someone who claims not to be him, you sure do support Shmuel at every turn. Are you his boyfriend? Or am I being anti-semitic for suggesting that Jews can be gay?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Gj. Puleski
                          Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 61

                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          Do his article's constitute as gossip, or is it only when you are relaying his words they should be viewed as gospel?

                          You have already contradicted yourself. Why was it "suprising" to find that Jews are nice people? Are you a victim of the same stereotype you accuse others of having?

                          Why is it "suprising" that a Macedonian has had unpleasant experiences with other Macedonians? What is your definition of suprising? Or is it something fluid that you can mould as you see fit?

                          For someone who claims not to be him, you sure do support Shmuel at every turn. Are you his boyfriend? Or am I being anti-semitic for suggesting that Jews can be gay?
                          Zdravo, SoM,

                          Can you imagine, I was convinced that we have already overcome the Sam Vaknin phase of our communication! What a stupid optimist! Then, out of blue, I received the awaking blow: the undecent message of yours from yesterday. OK, it is your choice and it displays your level, despite all green square decorations on your chest. And I suppose S.V. would be very flattered if he new how an influential person he was - so influential that even a mentioning of his name is enough to psychologicaly destabilize a strong community like the Macedonian Truth Forum . Any way, as for myself, I am not in the mood to give him that pleasure. That is why I will pretend as if this incident did not happened, and will try to reasonable answer your last remarks:

                          1-When I used the word “gossip” I was only refering Risto’s statement that Sam Vaknin is in
                          a position advising the Macedonian Government. It is YOUR CONSTRUCTION that with
                          the word “gossip” I was refering S.V.s’ ARTICLES. I did not say and did not mean that.

                          2-Your objections about me being “surprised” by Jankovska’s statement that Jews are nice
                          people is even more strange than the one about the “gossip”. When you don’t have
                          personal experience about something (for instance about the ethnic characteristics of the
                          Jewish people), then your knowledge about that something is purely theoretic and a sum
                          of informations collected by hearing or reading. In the case of Jews, the information I
                          have had (before the historic speech of Jankovska) was even poorer, because it consisted
                          only of stereotypes I already mentioned. It does not neccessarily mean that (as you imply)
                          I was victim of these stereotypes. It is not the case because, simply,
                          (1) I am aware that I do not have reliable information on the subject (that all I
                          know about Jews is a bunch of stereotypes), and (2), my basic principle is to NOT classify
                          people (especially ethnicities) as “good” or “bad” “by nature”, but rather as a result of
                          historical and social “conditioning”.

                          And now (according to you) the “key” question: if we assume that all above is true,
                          isn’t that a contradiction - the fact that I was “pleasantly surprised”
                          by Jankovska’s statement that Jews are nice people? Of course it is not! How comme?
                          Very simple. The awareness that my information about the Jews is not very reliable,
                          does not prevent the brain to make some expectations and presumptions about what could
                          be the truth. These expectations are based on what you have as information, regardless of
                          your consciousness that this information is not very reliable. It is the physiology of the
                          brain: it always has to have an idea of everything, and that idea is based on the available
                          information. In the case with the Jews, the ifornmation I had on disposal (the stereotypes)
                          was not a favorable one, and it was quite normal for me to be surprised when that what I
                          have heard from Jankovska was, not only different, but in extreme opposite to the
                          information I had on disposal and, thus, to my normal expectations. For me, the important
                          fact in this story is not not what kind of expectations I hed (based on the available
                          information, the stereotypes), but that I was POSITIVELY surprised, which is (I guess)
                          an attitude of a positive personality.

                          3-One more odd question you post is the one about me being surprprised with Jankovska’s
                          unpleasant experiences with other Macedonians in the diaspora. Excouse me, but I am a
                          Macedonian, living in Macedonia, thinking I know Macedonians – and my opinion on
                          Macedonians is not close to that I’v heard from Jankovska. What is even worse is that I
                          can not say that she is lieing. I believe her and that means that I learned from her an
                          UNPLEASANT NEWS about us Macedonians – and that is why it was an UNPLEA-
                          SANT SURPRISE for me. Can you understand this?

                          I don’t know if this time I was successful in my explanations on the 3 issues above,
                          but it is realy beyond my abilities to be more clear than this.

                          4-You say: “For someone who claims not to be him, you sure do support Shmuel at every
                          turn”. I don’t know if you have heard about the basic democratic principle that :
                          Everybody is innocent, until proven guilty ! And in this thread here I did still not
                          heared nothing else but labelings and outbursts of hate towards Vaknin. May be you know
                          why you hate him, and may be you have every right for that, but for me that is not enough
                          to “join the club”, just for the sake of being with the tribe. I am not that type person. I need
                          reasons and explanations. It may happen that I would even agree with your argumentation
                          against Vaknin, but I would first have to hear it. Till now I did not hear any concrete
                          accusations, just outbursts of anger. If you return a few pages back in this thread, you will
                          see that you are angry with me just because I call him Mr. Vaknin and because I talled you
                          that he is making a great contribution in the health reform process (can you deny that?)
                          and because I said that he is not one of the advisers of the government as you are
                          asserting. In one word, you are upset just because what I said I know about S.V. is not
                          something negative and because I did not found any reason to attack him, as you expected
                          I should. And so, having “all that” in mind, for you the only logical conclusion is that that
                          kind of “behaviour” of mine could mean that either Pulja is Vaknin himself, or is he
                          (guess what!) Vaknin’s boyfriend! Well, very witty, I must admit. But, having in mind the
                          seriousness of the discussion (and of your accusations), it is very shallow and unfair. I
                          admit that I expected much more from a Soldier of Macedon.
                          Last edited by Gj. Puleski; 10-23-2009, 07:34 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Prolet
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 5241

                            President Ivanov meets with Jews of Macedonian descent

                            Friday, 23 October 2009

                            President Gjorge Ivanov met yesterday with representatives of Jews of Macedonian descent, media reports from Jerusalem.

                            Meeting participants stressed that the Jewish Community in Macedonia is an indispensable part of the country's society, as well as a bridge that brings together and enhances the already friendly bilateral relations.

                            Avi Kozma, Rabbi of the Jewish Community Macedonia, thanked President Ivanov for his visit to Israel.

                            "It is quite significant that the president is here in Jerusalem, the holy country, the holy city, meeting with Israeli officials and leaders of the Jewish people. This is something that mustn't be forgotten, whereas Macedonia and its leaders should continue to build relations with Israel", said Rabbi Kozma.

                            Construction of the Holocaust Memorial Center in Skopje is a link in the chain that ties the rich Macedonian-Jewish heritage there, which was destroyed on March 11, 1943.

                            "This represents a very important symbol, but the future must be further built", added the Rabbi.

                            Rashel Drumer Levi, who was born in Skopje and lives in Israel, says that Macedonian emigrants have double citizenship.

                            "We are Israelis and Macedonians. The two national are very close and similar by their traits. The most important thing is that Macedonians were one of the very few nations who showed kindness to Jews during the Holocaust. Jews in Macedonia suffered from the Bulgarian fascists, not the Macedonians", she added.

                            МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              Shmuel Vaknin, take note:

                              Jews in Macedonia suffered from the Bulgarian fascists, not the Macedonians
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by Gj. Pulevski
                                What a stupid optimist!
                                Self-criticism is healthy, one step at a time brate, you'll get there.
                                And I suppose S.V. would be very flattered if he new how an influential person he was - so influential that even a mentioning of his name is enough to psichologicaly destabilize a strong community like the Macedonian Truth Forum .
                                Hehehe, you're kidding, right? The only one that is psychologically destabilised is yourself. Why don't you ask Shmuel if he found members of our forum so influental that he felt compelled to write a piece of garbage that YOU brought into this forum within the first few posts you made? The man writes lies about my people, what would you have me do, nothing? Did I not denounce anti-Semitic views on this forum? Were not my (and another administrator's) statements significant enough to warrant the display of the other side of the coin?

                                You come here, to our forum, with your accusations and trash articles written by that moron, and expect what, respect? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings dete, and I feel sorry for you that you condone trash articles about Macedonians written by that moron.
                                I don’t know if this time I was successful in my explanations on the 3 issues above, but it is realy beyond my abilities to be more clear than this.
                                To be "suprised" means you already had a pre-conceived notion about the Jews, hence, you were a victim of the same stereotpying. Otherwise, why the "suprise", because there are good Jewish people out there, that is your "suprise"? Stop trying to play with words, you're all over the place, if you don't know what you're on about I suggest you think before you write.
                                In one word, you are upset just because what I said I know about S.V. is not something negative and because I did not found any reason to attack him
                                He wrote a trash article about Macedonians and this forum in particular, based on the opinion of a few individuals. You posted that trash article here. The fact that you don't find the words of Vaknin as irresponsible and inflated garbage, that you turn a blind eye to the rest of what he has said against Macedonian people, that you come here and promote his garbage against the Macedonian people, says alot about you starokraec, kizni sho si i ti.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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