"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • momce
    Banned
    • Oct 2012
    • 426

    #16
    My view of the vlachs is they are not related to the Romans at all but are probably a residue of the proto-Balkan world.

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #17
      Why do you think like that momce??
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • momce
        Banned
        • Oct 2012
        • 426

        #18
        they might be part of a pre-Latin substrate that was in the area like the Italo-Illyrian bridge or something but not sure..the Albanians may be a similar output of the Illyro-Thracian bridge both seem to be somwhat related to Romanians which are part of the same phenomenon..vlachs are an odd phenomenon my view is mayb they are the result of a scattered tribe that took on various forms depending on the territories they migrated towards. There are some interesting views of Barabas Latinist school. What I conclude is that the "greek" or whatever element is really superficial and mostly a political-church term in these regions has nothing to do with the peoples natural cultures, once you do the appropriate dialectical reductions and historical-phenomenol reductions.. So I consider the terms "greek", "bulgarian" etc to be ideological labels and power constructs.
        Last edited by momce; 01-04-2013, 09:18 AM.

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          #19
          Originally posted by Nexus View Post
          Vlachs are one of the Balkans peoples that I know the less the history. Here's what i find on an another forum :



          I think also that Romanians and Albanians are connected, Albanians are a mix of vlachs/slavic speaking peoples with orientals and others influences [See the Kaplan Resuli-Burovic interview]. And :



          Mysteriously at the same time (X century), some Albanians appear too ...

          What's your thoughts?

          I'm not sure I understand your question? Can you please clarify. Are you asking me about Albanians only, or the connection between Albanians and Vlachs?

          The first undisputed reference to Albanians is in the XI century (although this specific term actually refers to Normans in a couple of cases, while the Albanians are called Arbanitai). Maybe a minor point, but I just wanted to clarify it. As already stated - "Vlachs" appear, for the first time, in 976 AD!

          What I think is - these population groups already existed in the Balkans, prior to X/XI c., whatever their origins. Nevertheless, whatever their origins and 'date of appearance', I also think that Vlachs and Albanians intermingled over the course of centuries. Some Vlach groups were likely Albanized, while some Albanians may have been incorporated into the Vlach fold. There was also linguistic and cultural contact & mixing.

          I have already explained, in another thread, my 'belief/theory' that Albanians are actually Mardaites - who were settled in the Balkans by Byzantine-Roman authorities starting no earlier than the 700's AD.

          The Vlachs, whatever their "racial" and "ethnic" origins, are a mixed people indeed but they are direct descendants of the Roman empire and civilization.
          Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:42 PM.

          Comment

          • momce
            Banned
            • Oct 2012
            • 426

            #20
            interesting the vlachs appear about the same time as the slavs. I believe at one time the vlachs were also called slavs or "bulgars" by the Byzantines...could these just be names the Byzatines are using for Balkan tribes who were not yet Christianised, still pagan? you say the vlachs "appear" first in 900's but could be they are just appearing to the Byzantines or the Byzantines are labelling them in that period, so they could be alot older.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #21
              Originally posted by momce
              My view of the vlachs is they are not related to the Romans at all........
              Perhaps not so much genetically, but linguistically, they're without a doubt related to the Romans.
              they might be part of a pre-Latin substrate that was in the area like the Italo-Illyrian bridge...........
              They speak a Romance language derived from Latin, which is in turn derived from Italic. As far as I know, there is very little to connect the Vlach language with Illyrian.
              the Albanians may be a similar output of the Illyro-Thracian bridge
              I doubt it. If their language is anything to go by, the Albanians are the most heterogeneous group in the Balkans.
              ......both seem to be somwhat related to Romanians which are part of the same phenomenon..
              Vlach and Romanian are both eastern Romance languages, whereas a significant portion of Latin loanwords in Albanian come from eastern Romance.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                #22

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #23
                  More on the Vlachs and Albanians in Morea (Peloponnese), specifically Mani.

                  The writers do provide interesting facts, such as:

                  - The term Mani and/or Maniates is most likely of Latin origin and derivation. It comes from the word 'manus', meaning hand (by the way, the word for hand is more or less the same in modern Vlach dialects and Romanian).
                  - Many Vlachs and Albanians settled in the Peloponnese, in repeated waves. Most came from the northern regions: Epirus and Thessaly.
                  - All of Mani is full of Albanian and Wallachian (Vlach) names.
                  - Part of the customs in Mani are Albanian.
                  - A disastrous famine of 746 AD destroyed the population throughout the Peloponnese.

                  (Please let me know if you want me to post additional pages from this book. It can be accessed in Google Books.)








                  PS:

                  This is a copy & paste from a newsgroup that is no longer available. I was able to save the info a while back (I did not make any editing to the text below). Some of the comments are from Constantine Buhayer (University of Westminster, London).



                  2 points:
                  If one assumes that many of the Greeks of Crimea were Ellinovlachi,
                  then the following historical item hints at their mercantile power and
                  national aspirations (even though this apparently covers mostly
                  Ioannina Greeks):

                  The author was Athanasios Petros Psalidas (1767-1829). Born in
                  Ioannina where he studies at the famous school of Balaton.

                  In 1792 he wrote a pamphlet in Vienna.

                  He describes the visit Catherine paid to her new acquisitions from
                  the Ottoman Empire, in Nizni and Tauria. Psalidas argues that the
                  hidden purpose of her visit was to liberate the Greeks. These are his
                  arguments: When she arrived at the palace gate of Niznan she was
                  stopped/welcomed by Archmandrite Dorotheos (an islander Greek)
                  who addressed her, praised her and compared her to Pallas Athena.
                  Her route had been lined by the local Greek merchants with oranges,
                  lemons (trees?), bread and salt, all produce of Greece to remind her
                  of who was behind the gesture. Dorotheos finally offered the cross to
                  her lips and thus made her bend forward and kiss it. They then
                  proceeded into the palace where the local Greek merchants,
                  dressed in their finest attire were waiting for her. Again, she was
                  praised and called upon to free and earn the eternal gratitude of
                  those Greeks enslaved by the Turks.

                  Psalidas tells us that most of the Greeks were from the region of
                  Ioannina, and that after the liberation of the city in 1784, it had
                  attracted various nations, including Greeks from the Peloponnese.
                  Furthermore, one of the liberating battalions consisted of Greeks
                  under Major Kostis of Ioannina (it was he who prepared the route
                  with oranges, etc). Psalidas says that many of those men were
                  promoted up the ranks, thereby, he argues preparing them to lead
                  an army and liberate the Greeks.
                  -----------------------------

                  Also, and uniquely (and that is the point) in the Greek world, why is it
                  that the term 'Vlachos' as well as describing a constituent groups of
                  the Hellenic people, also describes a pastoral Greek life style,
                  irrespective of regional affiliations. No other term of constituent
                  groups - Sarakatsanos, Makedonas, Kerkiraios, a.s.o - became such
                  a generic term. More so, I am not aware of a similar transference in
                  the (Western) English or (Western) French languages.
                  Of course, Vlachos is also used as a critical term by city dwellers.
                  But in this case, the word Athinaios can be a term of insult in Patra
                  and Thessaloniki, and the term Peloponnisios harbours no good will
                  when used in Macedonia.
                  As for 'Vlachopoula', I have only come across it as a term of
                  endearment from male to female. Likewise for 'Karagounitsa' but not
                  'nisiotisa' or 'protevousiana', aso.

                  Best
                  Constantine Buhayer
                  University of Westminster
                  London





                  C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk wrote:

                  > [snip]
                  >
                  > Also, and uniquely (and that is the point) in the Greek world, why is it
                  > that the term 'Vlachos' as well as describing a constituent groups of
                  > the Hellenic people, also describes a pastoral Greek life style,
                  > irrespective of regional affiliations. No other term of constituent
                  > groups - Sarakatsanos, Makedonas, Kerkiraios, a.s.o - became such
                  > a generic term. More so, I am not aware of a similar transference in
                  > the (Western) English or (Western) French languages.
                  > Of course, Vlachos is also used as a critical term by city dwellers.
                  > But in this case, the word Athinaios can be a term of insult in Patra
                  > and Thessaloniki, and the term Peloponnisios harbours no good will
                  > when used in Macedonia.
                  > As for 'Vlachopoula', I have only come across it as a term of
                  > endearment from male to female. Likewise for 'Karagounitsa' but not
                  > 'nisiotisa' or 'protevousiana', aso.
                  >
                  >

                  Some further reflections on the ubiquitous nature of Vlachs and
                  Arvanitovlachs (Karagouni) south of Thessaly and the Helladic Mainland and
                  across the Corinth canal.

                  In passing, I would like to add a footnote on the underinvestigated question
                  of Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs of Moreas (Peloponnese),

                  The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers
                  in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel
                  in Morea shortly after the War of Independence (1821). He specifically
                  makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate
                  language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him
                  that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains
                  (I believe that the evidence points in the direction of Arcadia) [Cousinery
                  H.E.M., _Voyage dans de la Macédoine_, Book I. Paris, 1831, p.18; cited in
                  Koukoudis, A, _The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora_, Zitros Publications,
                  Thessaloniki, 2000 (in Greek)]

                  There is also the unresolved issue of the widespread Sklabhnika, Armanika,
                  Arbanitika kai Latinokeltika (Slavonic-like, Vlach/Armiîn, Albanian, and
                  Latin-derived) toponyms particularly in Arcadia, a subject of tempting
                  speculation...

                  Aside from the obvious Vlachokerassia and Arvanitokerassia, toponyms like
                  Asanoi, Arachouva, Atsicholo, Baltetsi, Baltesiniko, Belimaki
                  [Mpelimatsioi], Berbaina [akin to Varbeani], Blongo, Garzeniko, Granitsa,
                  Dimitsana, Drestena, Nemnitsa (Nimnitsa), Palumba, Roinou, Saltozi, Sopôto,
                  Stemnitsa and so forth, raise legitimate questions as to Vlach and/or
                  Arvanitovlach presence particularly in the central and southeastern areas of
                  Peloponnese (including the region referred to as Tsakonia -- point of
                  reference: Leonidion)

                  [Swkrath N. Liakou: Ermhneia Ebdomhnta Sklabhnikwn Topwnumiwn ths Arkadias
                  (me tis Latinikh Keltikh Arbanitikh Armanikh), Mikroeurwpaikes (Balkanikes)
                  Meletes 13, Qessalonikh, Iounios, 1981]

                  Besides, the ingrained notion of a slavonic derivation attached to a
                  plethora of toponyms in Lacônia is also subjudice calling for a critical
                  reappraisal to assess the extent to which these might have a latin-based (as
                  opposed to slav-based) derivation, suggesting a putative Vlach/Arvanitovlach
                  link.

                  In the first place, the unresolved saga of Millingi in Mani comes to mind.
                  It is noteworthy that Millingi inhabited the inaccessible regions of Mt
                  Taygetus and Mt Parnôn, particularly the latter. But, as a rule, the
                  mountainous route of migration (or escape) would be more typical for the
                  fleeing indigenous populations, as compared to the settlements of invaders
                  who would tend to be more agrarian.

                  Incidentally, the purported Slavonic origin of the word Millingi is
                  questionable and so is the attendant implication that the Millingioi, i.e.,
                  the inhabitants, represented in fact, bona fide Slav tribes. In this
                  regard, one does not have to concur with Georgaka's interpretation [D.
                  Georgaka. _The Medieval Names Millingi and Ezeritae of Slavic Groups in the
                  Peloponnesus_. Byzantinische Zeitschrift, 1950, Munchen, pp. 43 49], in the
                  same way that one does not have to accept a priori Fallmerayer's assertions
                  [Ph. Fallmerayer, _Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea wahrend des
                  Mittelalteres_, Stuttgart, Tubingen, 1830-1836]], which have been
                  perpetuated by the old German school of Anthropology [Max Vasmer, _Die
                  Slawen in Griechenland_, Berlin, 1941: 87].

                  To the extent that the word Millingi may have a Latinate derivation [see J.
                  G. Th. Graesse _Orbis Latinus_ (2nd edition), Richard Carl Schmidt & Co.;
                  Berlin 1909], a possible medieval Vlach/Arvanitovlach origin of the term
                  should also be entertained.

                  The once rebellious Millingi, fought alongside with fellow 'Byzantine'
                  Greeks (i.e., Cynurians and other Arcadians and Lacônians) in the abortive
                  assault headed by Michael I Komnenos Doukas (despot of Epirus), against the
                  Franks (Venetians) in Messênia.

                  There are many signposts of Millingi in the Mt. Parnôn area, including
                  'Zygos tou Meligou', 'Dromos tou Miligou', 'Meligitika Kalubia' and, near
                  Agios Iôannis, the 'Meligou' or 'Meligoun' as is referred to by
                  (S)Phrantzês.

                  C.D.K.

                  PS. Last but not least, let us not forget the Moraitiko traditional song
                  "Mia Vlacha Vlachopoula, Arvanitopoula..."
                  Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:43 PM.

                  Comment

                  • momce
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 426

                    #24
                    Originally posted by George S. View Post
                    these people the vlachs behaved themselves unlike the albanians who wanted the whole of macedonia for themselves.I don't think there was any resentment of the vlachs & macedonians ,has there ever been any?
                    There is something of tension in "modern greece". I think its cause vlachs have almost no traditions of their own they are more interested in becoming greeks whereas Macedonians are sceptical about most things and love their own things.

                    Comment

                    • momce
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 426

                      #25
                      It reminds me how hollow, superficial and impoverished greek nationalism(any form of nationalism?) really is. No wonder it has such mass appeal.
                      Last edited by momce; 02-20-2013, 05:06 AM.

                      Comment

                      • momce
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 426

                        #26
                        I think the socio-economic linguistic analysis here is critical also which usually gets lost in modern mass homogenisation processes, i.e"nationalism", largely a construct of a small power group. Interesting from the above readings seems the "greek revolution" was something of an "outward" sham. Question: why was there a need to create the modern greek myth?
                        Last edited by momce; 02-26-2013, 05:14 AM.

                        Comment

                        • momce
                          Banned
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 426

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          Perhaps not so much genetically, but linguistically, they're without a doubt related to the Romans.

                          They speak a Romance language derived from Latin, which is in turn derived from Italic. As far as I know, there is very little to connect the Vlach language with Illyrian.

                          I doubt it. If their language is anything to go by, the Albanians are the most heterogeneous group in the Balkans.

                          Vlach and Romanian are both eastern Romance languages, whereas a significant portion of Latin loanwords in Albanian come from eastern Romance.
                          What about quasi-unclassified dead languages like Messapic, Mysian etc?

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            #28
                            Kostis Palamas in 1901. stated the following:

                            «Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».

                            "Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality ROMANS."

                            Many modern Greeks, like Palamas above, were very much aware what their true national name was: and this name is Romans (and Romans = Romaioi = Armani/"Vlachs").
                            Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:44 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Eden
                              Junior Member
                              • Jan 2013
                              • 16

                              #29
                              Carlin, were the vlachs of Greece the descendants of romanized greek population? Or they were the results of migrations?

                              Comment

                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                #30
                                I would say that most Greek Vlachs subscribe to the "theory" that they are Latinized native (Greek) populations. This may be true to a certain degree, however, I disagree with it (this theory is a relatively modern creation of Greek scholars/historians). I believe the Vlachs of Greece and Balkans in general are a by-product of Roman empire, numerous migrations, settlements, population transplantations, and intermingling among various ethnic elements.
                                Last edited by Carlin; 07-27-2016, 12:47 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X