"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[Amphipolis]

1) The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:

"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."

Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

This isn't so. The full text (which is quite short) can be found here. Many references to Greeks, separate ones to Maniotes and Tzakonians. I can't see any Vlachs here either.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A57948.0001.001/1:2?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

[DraganOfStip]

I have also added my opinion when my name was Thessalo-niki and later Sweet Sixteen.

Wow, I knew you and Sweet Sixteen were the same person but you were also Thessalo-niki?
Looks like you always find your way back in, you seem devoted to remain a part of this forum in one form or another.
To what do we owe this persistence?

[tchaiku]

This isn't so. The full text (which is quite short) can be found here. Many references to Greeks, separate ones to Maniotes and Tzakonians. I can't see any Vlachs here either.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A5...;view=fulltext

Interesting.

[tchaiku]

I know a Greek who can trace her roots for 200 years in Thessaloniki.

[tchaiku]

Apparently, during the 18th century a large number of Ottoman subjects spoke Vlach at home, but its use gradually diminished. Linguist Gustaf Weigand who studied the Vlachs extensively around 1980 mentions that "a large number of the ‘pure Greeks’ of Thebes, Serres, and Thessaloniki’ are pure Vlachs.35 There were Vlach speakers from the south of Karditsa to the west, Agrafa mountains and Eurytania province who lost their language in the 19th and 20th centuries.36 In Peloponese, where Vlachs had emigrated from northern points, the Vlachs also were assimilated in the local population. (Sometimes Vlach place names remind us of the earlier language.)37 Some Meglenites were converted to Islam in the 18th century and went to Turkey, while others identified with Bulgarians and went to Bulgaria. The people who still spoke Vlach in the 20th century were mainly isolated mountaineers who married among themselves.

35 p. 313. Educated Vlachs of Serres belonged to the Greek party and lost the language (p. 261).

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm

[Risto the Great]

I know a Greek who can trace her roots for 200 years in Thessaloniki.

I know most Greeks on the internet can trace themselves back to the ancient Hellenes.

Why don't you find out what she relies on to prove this. Would it be religious affiliation?

I'm sure some Greeks were around if that helps.

[tchaiku]

I know most Greeks on the internet can trace themselves back to the ancient Hellenes.

Why don't you find out what she relies on to prove this. Would it be religious affiliation?

I'm sure some Greeks were around if that helps.

https://www.quora.com/How-safe-is-the-Former-Yugoslav-Republic-of-Macedonia-FYROM/answer/Dimitra-Triantafyllidou/comment/22029532

[Carlin]

This isn't so. The full text (which is quite short) can be found here. Many references to Greeks, separate ones to Maniotes and Tzakonians. I can't see any Vlachs here either.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A5...;view=fulltext

1) As I said (I was careful with terminology), no mention of Hellenes or neo-Hellenes. The author does mention Greeks of course. In addition to this, and as you pointed out, there are no references to either Vlachs and Arvanites. He does mention Albanians (Albaneses).

What are we to make on all this? Who were these Greeks and Albanians?

Curiously, the author separates and differentiates the T'Zackonians from the Greeks proper: "THE Inhabitants of the Morea, are Turks, Greeks, Albaneses and T'Zackonians." And also: "The T'Zackonians are most in Towns, they are a very poor People, serving as Porters, both Men and Women carrying very great Burthens."

Thoughts? Why are these Greek-speaking T'Zackonians classified separately from the Greeks?

2) Any thoughts on what epitomizer of Strabo wrote? Who were these Scythians and/or Scythi-Slavs? What language/dialects did they speak?

[tchaiku]

There many holes on those theories.

[Carlin]

Guess the author of the following paragraphs / verbatim citations -


"Since most Slav toponyms allude to some aspect of nature, they obviously derive from a peasant and shepherd culture. It is not always clear whether they were brought into Greece by Slavs who settled down permanently, by tenants situated on monastic and lay estates, or by the Vlachs, Arvanito-Vlachs, and Albanians, who became thoroughly intermixed with the Slavs, particularly in the western districts.

When the controversy surrounding Fallmerayer's theory was at its height, Thomas Gordon, the Scottish philhellenist and participant in the Greek revolution of 1821 to 1829, observed that certain scholars had looked for traces of Slav settlement and influence in the Peloponnese. But he found that these really belonged to the hellenized descendants of Albanians, who were not only still living there but also still spoke their own language. Gordon, who at least knew the Peloponnese at first hand, maintained that these people were definitely not descendants of Slavs but rather of Albanians, who had come into Greece during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. It is now known that these new immigrants settled down in the Peloponnese and Epirus, particularly in the region of the Pindus Mountains. It is also known that many of these Illyrian Albanians spoke a Latin dialect. They were, in other words, Arvanito-Vlachs, who, besides their own Vlach language, also spoke Albanian fluently. Their subsequent impact on Greece, especially in the south, was much more lasting than that of any of the preceding Slav migrations.

The descent of the Albanians into Attica and the Peloponnese took place after 1382 during the last years of Catalan control (1311-1388). Attica had been recently devastated by a company of Navarrese soldiers of fortune, and as a step towards the repopulation of this region King Peter IV of Aragon gave official consent to Albanian colonization, which subsequently extended to the highlands of Boeotia, thence to Euboea, and, finally, during the Turkish occupation, to the islands of Salamis, Aegina, Angistri, and Andros.

Settlements were made with official concurrence in Achaia, Elis, and Arcadia, whence they spread into Messenia and Argolis.

It is likely that Arvanito-Vlachs and Vlachs were also caught up in the migratory stream of Albanians to the Peloponnese. In this regard Cousinery calls our attention to the fact that there were certain peoples in the mountainous parts of Argolis who, besides speaking Greek, spoke a language which was practically identical with that of the Macedonian Vlachs."

[Carlin]

Guess the author/source -


Βλαχοχώρια της Πελοποννήσου, στην περιοχή των Ολυμποχωρίων του Άργους, στην περιοχή των Καλαβρύτων, στον Χελμό (Αροανία), στην λοιπή ορεινή Αρκαδία και στο Παναχαϊκών, πλησίον της Πάτρας.

Είναι και τα βλαχοχώρια του Ταυγέτου της Μάνης, που αποβλαχίστηκαν σχεδόν από τον 17ο και 18ο αιώνα. Μέχρι και τελευταία, στα μέσα του 19ου αιώνα, αρμανόγλωσσοι Βλάχοι ζούσαν σε πολλές ορεινές περιοχές της Πελοποννήσου.

Vlach settlements in Peloponnesus, in the region of Olympus passages of Argos, in the area of Kalavryta, in Chelmos (Aroania)*, the rest of Arcadia and Panachaiko**, near Patras.

The Vlach villages of Taygetos in Mani, who lost the language almost from the 17th and 18th century. Until recently, in the mid 19th century, Armanian-speaking Vlachs live in many mountain areas of the Peloponnese.

* - Aroania, also known as Helmos or Chelmos (Χελμός, from South Slavic chlmo, "summit"), is a mountain range in Achaea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroania_(mountain)

** - Panachaiko, also known as Vodias in the Middle Ages, is also a mountain range in Achaea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachaiko

[Carlin]

The following was said (in 1821, just before the revolution) by one French linguist about the inhabitants of Sparta:

"From their manners, their features, and the names of many of the neighboring places, I should be tempted to regard them as proceeding from Sclavonian blood: many travellers pretend, however, to have discovered in these barbarous hordes traces of a Spartan origin."

[tchaiku]

Guess the author of the following paragraphs / verbatim citations -


"Since most Slav toponyms allude to some aspect of nature, they obviously derive from a peasant and shepherd culture. It is not always clear whether they were brought into Greece by Slavs who settled down permanently, by tenants situated on monastic and lay estates, or by the Vlachs, Arvanito-Vlachs, and Albanians, who became thoroughly intermixed with the Slavs, particularly in the western districts.

When the controversy surrounding Fallmerayer's theory was at its height, Thomas Gordon, the Scottish philhellenist and participant in the Greek revolution of 1821 to 1829, observed that certain scholars had looked for traces of Slav settlement and influence in the Peloponnese. But he found that these really belonged to the hellenized descendants of Albanians, who were not only still living there but also still spoke their own language. Gordon, who at least knew the Peloponnese at first hand, maintained that these people were definitely not descendants of Slavs but rather of Albanians, who had come into Greece during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. It is now known that these new immigrants settled down in the Peloponnese and Epirus, particularly in the region of the Pindus Mountains. It is also known that many of these Illyrian Albanians spoke a Latin dialect. They were, in other words, Arvanito-Vlachs, who, besides their own Vlach language, also spoke Albanian fluently. Their subsequent impact on Greece, especially in the south, was much more lasting than that of any of the preceding Slav migrations.

The descent of the Albanians into Attica and the Peloponnese took place after 1382 during the last years of Catalan control (1311-1388). Attica had been recently devastated by a company of Navarrese soldiers of fortune, and as a step towards the repopulation of this region King Peter IV of Aragon gave official consent to Albanian colonization, which subsequently extended to the highlands of Boeotia, thence to Euboea, and, finally, during the Turkish occupation, to the islands of Salamis, Aegina, Angistri, and Andros.

Settlements were made with official concurrence in Achaia, Elis, and Arcadia, whence they spread into Messenia and Argolis.

It is likely that Arvanito-Vlachs and Vlachs were also caught up in the migratory stream of Albanians to the Peloponnese. In this regard Cousinery calls our attention to the fact that there were certain peoples in the mountainous parts of Argolis who, besides speaking Greek, spoke a language which was practically identical with that of the Macedonian Vlachs."

Great find.

[Carlin]

Great find.

Thanks, np.

"So, in 1810 the Armani-Vlachs of Macedonia, Albania, Epirus, Thessaly, Central Greece, Peloponnese (without islands) surpass 700,000 inhabitants, amounting to 37% of the total population of Greek territories."

[Risto the Great]

Thanks, np.

"So, in 1810 the Armani-Vlachs of Macedonia, Albania, Epirus, Thessaly, Central Greece, Peloponnese (without islands) surpass 700,000 inhabitants, amounting to 37% of the total population of Greek territories."

Macedonia was not a Greek territory then.