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  • Buktop
    Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 934

    Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
    I refuse to believe that you are so dense as to believe what you just said there. And I hope you take that as a compliment.
    Thanks for the compliment, what I see in the quote indigen posted is an advocacy against violence and hatred. I see an advocacy of temporary adherence in an effort "to continue towards the much-needed progress and reforms". I took it as a policy of buying time while working to find a better solution. I know you do not view it like this, and I can't make you see what I see, and I understand the point you are trying to argue, but as you said, between the politicians, the legal system and the separatist elements within the Albanian community, we have more problems than we can handle. The government has trapped us within the tangles of this treacherous agreement, and the key to overthrowing it is to tackle the legal problems that allow these sorts of issues to exist. I would like to see more action from UMD in relation to the legal shortcomings of the constitution.

    Originally posted by Aleksandrov
    Regardless of what you and the UMD have said and done in the past, I would be happy to know that in future you will condemn and oppose it for what it is. Are you and the UMD willing to do that or not?
    I have always condemned and opposed the Framework and Interim Agreements, I have always advocated overthrowing them, we differ on the avenues to achieving the ends.

    Originally posted by Aleksandrov
    My advocacy against the Framework Agreement is well documented in Macedonian and Australian media archives since before it was even ratified.

    The Macedonian Australian Council of Sydney (including the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney and the Macedonian Orthodox Community Church St. Petka) raised $386,237.70 in less than a month just in Sydney to support the defense against the racist terrorists who attacked Macedonia in 2001 i.e. to do the opposite of appeasing them with something like the Framework Agreement.

    While most of the money from that fund was used to support the families of soldiers who were or would be killed or injured on the frontline - something that is essential for sustained resistance, the Macedonian Australian Council of Sydney is the only organization anywhere in the world to have funded a media campaign in the Republic of Macedonia against the ratification of that treacherous and suicidal Agreement (with ground-support from the World Macedonian Congress and MAAK). We also sponsored the blockade by displaced Macedonians of the border with Kosovo, which was designed as a protest against foreign pressure to appease the Albanian racist terrorists (also organized by the World Macedonian Congress). If more organizations and some political parties had the courage and will to join us, we might have actually succeeded. Since that time, we have consistently maintained a policy that the Framework Agreement is a treacherous, racially discriminatory and ruinous arrangement, which must be replaced with a model for the Rule of Law and multiculturalism that is based on a successful Western model (but not on the Swiss model, where there is no autochthonous Swiss ethnicity), where racism and terrorism are not rewarded, but punished. I would fill you in on some of the details if I thought it was worthwhile, but it seems that you are only questioning me as a way to divert attention from the fact that you and the organization you support have not only failed to clearly denounce or condemn the Framework Agreement, but have in fact praised it.
    I applaud your efforts, I am genuinely appreciative of the work you have done, I am not asking simply to detract from the issues or divert from criticism, I ask out of sincerity.



    Originally posted by aleksandrov
    I have almost no faith in Macedonia's Constitutional Court. In fact, I have little faith in the Macedonian legal system in general, especially when it comes to protecting citizens' rights against the power of the state (especially the post-communist installations of SDSM and Co.) and its foreign puppet-masters. Even the current Government of Macedonia has no faith in the Constitutional Court. Hypothetically, if the Constitutional Court were to rule that the Framework Agreement or any part of it is unconstitutional, the political parties that are responsible for its ratification could easily change the Constitution to overcome any legal obstacles to their designs. So why would I waste my time launching a case before the Constitutional Court?
    And here is where I agree with you, this is the discussion I wanted to promote previously to highlight the shortcomings of the Macedonian constitution that was drafted by the corrupt and power hungry remnants of a dictatorial system. I feel this is a much more important subject than quarreling over the he said she said nonsense. Unfortunately I was accused of diverting from the UMD discussion and the issue was ignored.

    This is an honest question, would it be possible for the citizens to call on the government to redraft or remove the relevant articles of the constitution that give the government the power to amend it without the consent of the people?



    Originally posted by Aleksandrov
    The only thing that can save Macedonia is the extermination of the popular slave mentality that lets the rule of fear and petty materialism take precedence over justice and the Rule of Law.
    I think that the people should be given real options to discourse and to ensure the actions of the government are in the interests of the citizens. This alone would eliminate the fearful mindset the people have towards their government.

    Governments should fear their citizens, the citizens should not fear their governments.
    "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

    Never once say you walk upon your final way
    though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
    Our long awaited hour will draw near
    and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      Originally posted by amitreski
      Let's move the discussion here http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ad.php?p=35414 . Please read my post that contains my article in Dnevnik.
      I did read that post. It did not really touch on most of my concerns. Can you have another go?

      Here it is again:
      Hello amitreski, welcome to this forum.
      I feel a little frustrated with the UMD and wonder out loud whether there has ever been situations where the UMD has done quite the opposite in relation to decisions of the Macedonian Government. Has the UMD ever castigated (any of) the Government's decisions or actions at any point? Some people may in fact view the UMD as a voice or tool of the Macedonian Government. Does the Macedonian Diaspora need to blindly support the Government in power?

      I have touched upon this in the past and have wondered what the UMD will do when it comes to a crossroad in ideology. Will it be prepared to lose relationships with the Government in power to assert itself? It has never done this in the past as far as I am aware.

      Thank you for admitting the error in Meto's youthful statements. We still really do not have closure on this matter until he personally deals with it. The protracted nature of this line of query has ensured the UMD is not seen to be transparent and merely raises more questions about the true intent of this organisation.

      How do you feel about the MPO alliance with UMD? What are your thoughts in relation to this organisation?
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Originally posted by amitreski
        Given the widespread discussion in this mistake, I am sure Meto would not make that mistake again .
        Perhaps there is a use for pesky internet forums after all.
        Notwithstanding this, the issue here is not whether he will repeat that mistake again, it is more to do with whether he sincerely believes it and has not changed his mind. Then it comes to how much influence he has over the rest of the UMD executive committee.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          Originally posted by amitreski View Post
          BTW


          What I am upset the most about is that UMD's policy is twistes up like a pretzel on these forums by few people who either belong to another Macedonian organization and try to weaken UMD, or just due to pure jealousy.

          Ако бараш влакно ќе го најдеш и во јајцето.

          Here is my article published in Dnevnik. As you can see I have asked some serious questions:

          Не треба да се преговара за тоа што е наше

          (Текст на Александар Митрески, потпретседател на Обединета македонска дијаспора, објавен на www.umdiaspora.org , 24-ти април 2008)

          Кога се преговара во некој спор, двете страни почнуваат со тврди ставови во своја корист кои се појдовна точка за да се дискутира за можен компромис. За жал, веќе 17 години Македонија наивно преговара. Ние во овие преговори треба јасно и гласно да кажеме дека нашето уставно име и идентитет не се можна тема за дискусија. Впрочем, ниедна личност, партија, установа нема право да преговара за уставното име.

          Но наместо тоа, ние постојано гледаме како да најдеме некое си фер решение и со тоа постојано си ги поткопуваме нашите позици. Во исто време, пак, Македонија никогаш гласно не кажала дека и таа има проблем со својот јужен сосед кој треба итно да се реши, а тоа се правата на Македонците од Егејска Македонија.

          Уставното име на нашата држава е Република Македонија и нема менување на тоа име за интерна и интернационална употреба. Доколку Грција има проблем со тоа име, тогаш билатерално да се реши тоа прашање. Ова требаше да биде исходот од преговорите за името во 1995-та година. А ние тогаш, а и сега, влегуваме во преговори веќе подготвени за отстапки и компромис. А другата страна во 1995-та г. излезе со тврд став дека во името на нашата држава не смее да стои зборот Македонија, за сега да изгледа како херој кој веќе направил компромис и може да прифати име како Северна Македонија.

          Колку шлаканици треба да ни се удрат за ние да се освестиме дека не треба да продолжиме во овој самоубиствен процес за срамно преговарање за нешто што со векови е наше? Тажно е тоа што Бакојани се лути дека Нимиц давал промакедонски предлози. Секој предлог на Нимиц кој е различен од нашето уставно име е погубен предлог за нас и ние тоа треба гласно да го манифестираме. Во овие преговори само ние можеме да изгубиме нешто, а другата страна е победник со самото тоа што има преговори.

          Дали на Република Македонија не и е грижа за стотиците илјади Македонци кои се обесправени во Егејска Македонија и уште толку Македонци кои не можат да одат да си ги видат своите родни огништа? Кога Р. Македонија ќе го покрене ова прашанје во овие преговори? До кога срамно ќе молчиме против нашиот јужен сосед додека тие си играат со нас како сакаат? Зарем е толку тешко да се свати дека проблемот не е името, туку со милионите што јужниот содед треба да ги плати за оштета кон Егејските Македонци?

          Македонија мора веднаш да ги прекине овие преговори, бидејќи повеќе не е обврзана да го прави тоа. Со ветото е прекршен Привремениот договор и со тоа Р. Македонија мора да поднесе барање за пререгистрација во Обединетите нации под своето уставно име. Впрочем, се виде дека тие селективно почитуваат договори. Ние го дадовме своето знаме за да не ни се дава вето. Кој ни гарантира дека доколку пак направиме отстапки тие нема повторно селективно да почитуваат договори кога треба да влеземе во ЕУ?

          Македонија мора да почне агресивно да го поставува прашањето за Македонците од Егејска Македонија до Европскиот парламент и Судот во Стразбург. Македонија треба да поведе судска постапка поради прекршување на договорот и претрпените штети што не сме во НАТО. Се покажа дека, и покрај ветото, Р. Македонија има пријатели и има перспектива. НАТО нема да ги реши економските прашања, туку работа, почитување на закони, некорумпираност и гордост се нашата иднина.
          This is a reasonable letter in my opinion.
          I welcome the different path it treads from that of Meto's "mistake".
          Why would you not make such broadcasts in the English language in suitable publications?

          As an aside, the AMHRC is funding Greek and Bulgarian based organisations that fight for the rights you speak of in your last paragraph. They have made monthly cash contributions over many years to these organisations in order to keep up the fight. You should talk to them to find out more about this.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8531

            Mitrevski, that's one of the problems with UMD - it tells people what they "want to hear" and then makes public statements to the contrary, such as speculating on "acceptable" names.
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              Originally posted by amitreski
              Tom

              UMD is formulated based on the opinions we receive from our supporters and members. Few guys in Australia, Canada or USA sitting behind a PC on a public forum can not dictate UMD's policy.

              UMD has done many town hall meetings across USA and Canada to hear the opinion of out members. Furthermore, UMD sends out a survey to our membership to hear their opinions on important topics. I know you may be disappointed, but when we asked our membership body if we should withdraw from the negotiations, the majority of respondents said that we should not.

              So there you have it. People that donate and support UMD get to influence the direction of UMD.


              Again, UMD is not the only Macedonian organization out there. Feel free to support another organization.
              Mitreski,

              You didn't really answer any of my questions. You and UMD have made some positive statements, but they are few and far between.

              Can you answer any of the questions surrounding the highly controversial statements made by UMD and its leadership that have been posted here?
              Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-04-2010, 05:42 PM.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • aleksandrov
                Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 558

                Bucktop,

                The one good thing about the Macedonian Constitution, which many Western constitutions don't offer, is the opportunity for a citizens-initiated referendum to change or supplement any legislative act, including the Constitution. But that's of little use when foreign powers like the US and some European countries, with the help of cheap local journalists and politicians, are successful in scaring and brainwashing a large section of the Macedonian public against protecting Macedonian rights and interests, as was the case with the last referendum organized by the World Macedonian Congress, against local government legislation that amounted to further ethnic segregation of the country, in accordance with the wishes of separatist terrorists. If the UMD wants to end this trend, it has to first stop deceiving itself and the Macedonian public into believing that the USA or any other power that tries to suppress the free will and citizens' rights of the Macedonian people is "Macedonia's best friend". I know that this is hard for Americans of Macedonian origin, who have conflicting allegiances between America and Macedonia, but perhaps they could avoid that conflict by putting justice and fairness above all?
                All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                Comment

                • aleksandrov
                  Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 558

                  Originally posted by amitreski
                  Tom

                  UMD is formulated based on the opinions we receive from our supporters and members. Few guys in Australia, Canada or USA sitting behind a PC on a public forum can not dictate UMD's policy. ...
                  Have you held a general meeting of your membership to articulate or endorse the contentious policies? How many of your members support your opinion that the Framework Agreement as a great achievement of the late Boris Trajkovski? What forum have they expressed their support in? Since you've decided to try and belittle and discredit the critics of some of your policies as "few guys in Australia, Canada or USA sitting behind a PC on a public forum", you should answer that question clearly and directly, unless you have no problem appearing hypocritical.

                  Do you want to lead or follow the opinion of your general membership? The fact that you still work with a self-appointed Board of Directors that has decided not to have its first general election until 2011 suggests that you want to lead your membership in a particular direction. I can understand that, but you can't have it both ways. You can't severely restrict the power of your members when it comes to holding elections or general meetings, yet credibly use the membership as a shield to protect yourselves against policy criticism.
                  Last edited by aleksandrov; 02-04-2010, 06:10 PM.
                  All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                  https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by Risto the Great
                    No they won't. We already have confirmation the UMD chooses to ignore historical arguments. It is policy for them apparently.
                    Originally posted by amitreski View Post
                    Where did you hear that?
                    I am sorry if I give the impression of misleading anybody. I can only work with public statements from relevant and interested parties. Then I have to try to make sense of various agendas and try to determine where the issue of credibility lies.

                    I believe you had private correspondence with Pelister where you stated the following:
                    Too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation
                    If you deny making this statement, I will pursue this with Pelister.
                    If this is indeed correct and attributable to you, I ask you how that statement should be interpreted. I believe it should be interpreted in a way that suggests historical arguments are in fact damaging Macedonia's reputation. As a consequence of who you were representing in your correspondence, the UMD believes historical arguments are in fact damaging Macedonia's reputation and it must form part of their policy.

                    Correct me if I am wrong.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • aleksandrov
                      Member
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 558

                      UMD Policy on the Ohrid Framework Agreement

                      Does the following public statement by the UMD organization amount to support for the Ohrid Framework Agreement or not?

                      "UMD Remembers President Trajkovski

                      Monday, 26 February 2007

                      Washington, D.C. – February 26 marks the 3-year anniversary of the tragic plane accident that caused the death of the former Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski and his entourage. The president and his associates were heading towards the regional economic forum in Mostar, Bosnia.

                      President Trajkovski stood behind his people through many trials and tribulations. His thoughts are prevalent even today. “The [Framework] Agreement is not perfect, but no agreement ever is…It is the best thing we have right now…The alternative is division at all levels: civil, inter-ethnic, political and generational…The alternative to peace is war, which will expose everyone to mass casualties, misery and a loss of perspective for many years to come,” said President Trajkovski in 2001.

                      Republic of Macedonia knocks on the door to NATO membership and is an EU member candidate. United Macedonian Diaspora encourages the Macedonian government, political opposition, and civil society not to forget the words of President Trajkovski and to continue towards the much-needed progress and reforms to ensure admission into all Euro-Atlantic institutions. There are urgent reforms that must be addressed in order for the Republic of Macedonia to join Euro-Atlantic structures, and our organization encourages the Macedonian government and its assembly to diligently work toward meeting these goals.

                      United Macedonian Diaspora is certain that differences between political parties will be overcome, reforms will be met, and that President Trajkovski’s vision “to create a society based on democracy, the rule of law and the free market economy, ultimately creating a civil society based on trust,” will prevail. The United Macedonian Diaspora salutes this courageous man that always put his people and country ahead of personal glorification.

                      To learn more about the life and legacy of President Trajkovski, please visit the Boris Trajkovski International Foundation website by clicking HERE."




                      I know the answer seems too obvious to warrant a poll, but there's at least one member of this forum who vehemently disagrees.

                      I am particularly interested in the answer of UMD members.

                      __________________________________________________ ______________________

                      Added on 17 June 2010:

                      I am adding a clip posted by Homer Makedonski and Indigen further down on this thread, which refers to evidence of collusion by the US administration and its Macedonian vassal, Boris Trajkovski, with Albanian terrorists, in their attacks on the Macedonian Republic in 2001:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X86MWXAGQY&feature=related
                      Last edited by aleksandrov; 06-17-2010, 01:00 AM.
                      All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                      https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        In my view, the fact that UMD has quoted Trajkovski's arguement FOR the Framework Agreement and then called on us to continue those "reforms" is a clear statement of support. UMD could have chosen any number of Trajkovski quotes, however, they specifically opted for this particular one to send a message. UMD's message is, that the Framework Agreement should be supported and implemented in full so that Macedonia can enter the EU and NATO.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Pelister
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2742

                          United Macedonian Diaspora encourages the Macedonian government, political opposition, and civil society not to forget the words of President Trajkovski
                          If its made in the West, UMD is likely to back it.

                          Why would UMD support these exclusively Western institutions and Western structures, knowing full well how unjust and injurous they are to us?

                          Why would they back these anti-Macedonian institutions and structures?

                          Are they whores? Don't they have any back bone, or even the most basic principles to stand on? Or are they simply opportunists and careerists seeking their own personal gain at our misfortune?

                          Comment

                          • Buktop
                            Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 934

                            Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
                            Bucktop,

                            The one good thing about the Macedonian Constitution, which many Western constitutions don't offer, is the opportunity for a citizens-initiated referendum to change or supplement any legislative act, including the Constitution. But that's of little use when foreign powers like the US and some European countries, with the help of cheap local journalists and politicians, are successful in scaring and brainwashing a large section of the Macedonian public against protecting Macedonian rights and interests, as was the case with the last referendum organized by the World Macedonian Congress, against local government legislation that amounted to further ethnic segregation of the country, in accordance with the wishes of separatist terrorists. If the UMD wants to end this trend, it has to first stop deceiving itself and the Macedonian public into believing that the USA or any other power that tries to suppress the free will and citizens' rights of the Macedonian people is "Macedonia's best friend". I know that this is hard for Americans of Macedonian origin, who have conflicting allegiances between America and Macedonia, but perhaps they could avoid that conflict by putting justice and fairness above all?
                            I know the referendum you speak of very well. Now how is it that SDSM's propaganda campaign was allowed to run unopposed? Did the opposition coalition not have enough funds to run their own media campaign?
                            "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                            Never once say you walk upon your final way
                            though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                            Our long awaited hour will draw near
                            and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                            Comment

                            • osiris
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1969

                              can someboy direct me to meto article written for the melbourne age, i must have missed it.

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Originally posted by osiris View Post
                                can someboy direct me to meto article written for the melbourne age, i must have missed it.
                                That's a good question - where is that article?
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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