Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    For months on end, a Russian invasion has been imminent. That is what you would think if you have been watching any of the main news networks across the world, whether it is BBC, Al Jazeera, DW, etc. The Russians should already be in Kiev by now. In the U.S., it is even worse. Many of the vocal republican and democrat politicians, along with all of the major news networks, are obsessed with Ukraine and are clamouring for war with Russia. Tucker Carlson is one of the few prominent personalities on a major news network that is against it, contrary to many of his colleagues on Fox News. He was also against the bombing of Syria. Trump shared the same sentiment in relation to both Russia and Syria, but caved, somewhat, to the war-mongering clowns in the republican establishment. At least he did not start any new wars. There are many among the republican establishment who despise both Tucker and Trump, but they force themselves to be nice because they know both individuals have a large following among conservatives. Tucker has the highest rating show on news. Trump is still very popular with millions of voters.

    There is a lot of criticism that can be thrown in Russia's direction and some of it is justifiable. But that is equally true of most other countries, particularly those that are considered to be dominant powers. Whether good in some ways, not so good in others, Russia is a necessity for a balanced world. There are some things that Russia can learn from the West, but the opposite is equally true. The West may be more free, but Russia is an Orthodox Christian country that places family values above some of the weird developments that have plagued the West in recent years. Compare an interview or press conference from Putin with those of western leaders. One is measured and straight-forward. The rest talk in abstract about matters they haven't even addressed in their own countries. The West could not care less about Ukraine. All they care about is destabilising Russia, a nuclear power that happens to be the largest country on earth with an enormous wealth of natural resources. Its very existence is an insult to the pompous elite who feel that they are entitled to dominate the entire world in perpetuity.

    I don't know how this situation is going to evolve, but the West is doing everything it can to stoke the fire by insisting on NATO membership for a country that shares a large border with Russia. They insist on Ukraine, which has also made some mistakes, joining a military alliance that is anti-Russian by definition, hypocrisy be damned. Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      U.S. and Germany prepare plans to evacuate nonessential embassy personnel in Kyiv, according to multiple media reports. (Matthew Chance reports that U.S. has informed Ukraine that they are "likely to start evacuations as early as next week" of families of diplomats.)

      According to militiamen from the Donetsk People's Republic, there are over 120,000 Ukr. soldiers in the Donbass with military equipment constantly arriving. Meanwhile, reports are coming in of U.S. tanks spotted in Romania.
      Last edited by Carlin; 01-22-2022, 03:54 PM.

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      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        Latest: Biden considering sending thousands of U.S. troops, warships and aircraft to the Baltics and Eastern Europe amid rising tensions in Russia/Ukraine conflict

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          Pentagon puts some forces on "heightened alert" for potential NATO deployment order

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          • Karposh
            Member
            • Aug 2015
            • 863

            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            I don't know how this situation is going to evolve, but the West is doing everything it can to stoke the fire by insisting on NATO membership for a country that shares a large border with Russia. They insist on Ukraine, which has also made some mistakes, joining a military alliance that is anti-Russian by definition, hypocrisy be damned. Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
            Relatively speaking, the Cuban missiles crisis was not that long ago. The US nearly went to war then when they thought the Russians were getting too close for comfort when they placed their nuclear missiles within striking distance of the US. Now we have NATO, an organization that was created to oppose Russia, courting a country that was, until very recently, universally known as "The" Ukraine, literally meaning "The Borderlands", thereby brazenly poking Russia in the eye. When NATO expanded its membership to the Baltic countries, the "despot" Putin turned a blind eye. When the NATO expanded its membership to Balkan countries, the despot from Russia once again turned a blind eye. Now they want that same despot to turn a blind while they're working hard to establish a home base right at Russia's front door.

            The only solution to the Ukrainian crisis that I can see is for NATO and the west to keep the fuck away from Ukraine. Ukraine must remain a neutral country that straddles the west and east spheres of influence without interference. Not unlike Switzerland. Some might argue "But what about Crimea? If the Russians can annex Crimea with impunity, what's to stop them from annexing the whole country?" My answer to that is that Crimea, according to everything I have seen and read, was always Russian to begin with. In fact the Crimean region was gifted to Ukraine during the Soviet era as recently as 1954.

            Also, while I'm on the subject of Ukraine, just a point or two on Ukrainian identity. I don't claim to know too much about this and I have no idea how strong the sense of Ukrainian identity is among Ukrainians but I make these points based on observations on an old work colleague of mine who claimed he was Ukrainian. Well, he was Ukrainian when it suited him anyway. The rest of the time he claimed he was a "Russian". I found it really strange. He also claimed he was a "Catholic" but when I pressed him on the subject he revealed that he belonged to a minority "Catholic" faith in Ukraine which probably makes up 1% of all the Christians in that country. The only thing that apparently makes them Catholic is the recognition of the Roman Catholic Pope as head of their church. So, based on all these observations, I just found his sense of identity to be very loose when it came to identifying as a Ukrainian or a Russian.


            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            The West could not care less about Ukraine. All they care about is destabilising Russia, a nuclear power that happens to be the largest country on earth with an enormous wealth of natural resources. Its very existence is an insult to the pompous elite who feel that they are entitled to dominate the entire world in perpetuity.
            100%. And, just like you mentioned, I will also add, Russia is a Christian country with Christian values and traditions which is a thorn in the eye to these atheist (satanic) and pedophilic rulers of the western world.

            Comment

            • Karposh
              Member
              • Aug 2015
              • 863

              Originally posted by Karposh View Post
              ...He also claimed he was a "Catholic" but when I pressed him on the subject he revealed that he belonged to a minority "Catholic" faith in Ukraine which probably makes up 1% of all the Christians in that country. The only thing that apparently makes them Catholic is the recognition of the Roman Catholic Pope as head of their church.
              I forgot to add, apart from recognition of the pope as head of their church, the church is essentially Orthodox in dogma and traditions as well as observing the old Julian calendar.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                The only solution to the Ukrainian crisis that I can see is for NATO and the west to keep the fuck away from Ukraine. Ukraine must remain a neutral country that straddles the west and east spheres of influence without interference. Not unlike Switzerland.
                I agree, neutrality is the solution. I think Ukrainian politicians are playing a dangerous game by attempting to entice NATO to fight on their behalf. Unfortunately, hawkish idiots from the U.S. and EU are fuelling their unreasonable aspirations. If they continue to provoke Russia to the point of an invasion, I doubt they are going to receive the assistance they are expecting, and they may end up losing more than they already have. Ukrainians should understand that the interests of NATO have little to do with a prosperous Ukraine and everything to do with the destruction of Russia. By all means, pursue your own policy to the extent that it is reasonable, but understand that Russia isn't just any other country and their perspective on the potential for U.S. missiles to be placed on their border must be taken into account. That is the reality. Becoming pawns for some hegemonistic military alliance that is run by people who can't even place your country on a map is not the solution.
                Some might argue "But what about Crimea? If the Russians can annex Crimea with impunity, what's to stop them from annexing the whole country?" My answer to that is that Crimea, according to everything I have seen and read, was always Russian to begin with. In fact the Crimean region was gifted to Ukraine during the Soviet era as recently as 1954.
                That region has passed hands from one group to another for centuries, but it does hold some historical significance for both Russians and Ukrainians, as the medieval leader of their ancestors was baptised in Crimea. In more recent times, it was controlled by Russia for about 170 years before Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine. The only reason Russia didn't create an issue out of Crimea when the USSR disintegrated was because an agreement allowed them to keep their fleet there. If it played its cards right, Ukraine could have kept Crimea, but the events of 2014 put that in jeopardy, hence the subsequent referendum and unification with Russia. I don't think Crimea will ever be part of Ukraine again. Ukrainians may be able to regain sovereignty of their eastern territories that are currently held by the "separatists," but even if they succeed, it will take time to reintegrate a region they've been at war with for the past 7 years.
                Also, while I'm on the subject of Ukraine, just a point or two on Ukrainian identity. I don't claim to know too much about this and I have no idea how strong the sense of Ukrainian identity is among Ukrainians but I make these points based on observations on an old work colleague of mine who claimed he was Ukrainian. Well, he was Ukrainian when it suited him anyway. The rest of the time he claimed he was a "Russian". I found it really strange.
                As with others, there are some complexities in Ukrainian history. That said, I believe the Ukrainian identity is valid. One of the issues they have is that many people who self-identify as Ukrainian speak Russian as a primary language. The pro-Ukrainian language policies, which Ukraine has every right to execute, have been coupled with an overtly anti-Russian language stance. Time will tell if that was the correct approach, but good luck trying to win hearts and minds in Donetsk and getting its Russian-speakers to adopt Ukrainian any time soon.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Wow that is a great overview SoM.

                  I just want to add that the US has handed the "response" to Russia:

                  - Russia must withdraw its troops from Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova, NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg.

                  - Russian senator Dzhabarov (means close to nothing though) says the US written response to the Russian proposals is Washington going into direct confrontation.

                  - Basically the US response is: NO concessions to Russia.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                    Basically the US response is: NO concessions to Russia.
                    Basically, a fait accompli that treats Russia as if it were a downtrodden Balkan country that has no right to a perspective in its own region. Great strategy. Observe the total lack of self-awareness. These are the geniuses who lied as a pretext to invade Iraq, partnered with terrorists in Syria, bungled the Afghanistan withdrawal and created the conditions for the resumption of African slavery in Libya. They are the same hypocrites who claimed to be concerned about the atrocities committed in the former Yugoslavia yet stood by and did nothing while a million people were butchered in Rwanda, who used an armed intervention to prevent separatism in Bosnia yet promoted separatism in Kosovo a few years later. At some point, one would think they'd reflect on their dismal résumé and question some of their tactics for the sake of peace and stability in the world. Instead, they just write the rules as they go along and change them whenever they feel the need to justify their existence. The sensible politicians in the U.S. who aren't thirsting for blood need to be more vocal. Needless to say, this "response" will not bode well in Russia.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      Tucker's most recent take, on point once again.

                      'Tucker Carlson Tonight' explains why the president is 'panicked' about Ukraine. #FoxNews #TuckerSubscribe to Fox News! https://bit.ly/2vaBUvASWatch more Fox...


                      Ukrainian politicians contributed to the initial hysteria about an invasion, in the hope that the West would come to their aid. Now they are urging calm, as their hawkish counterparts in the U.S., supported by almost the entire media, beat the war drums even louder, without any real intent to engage in open conflict with the Russians in Ukraine. If Russia holds to its position, there are two likely outcomes. The West will lose face and grudgingly accept the end of NATO's eastward expansion, whether they care to publicly admit it or not, or they will continue to provoke Russia, in which case Ukraine stands to lose much more.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Karposh
                        Member
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 863

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Tucker's most recent take, on point once again.
                        Tucker is always on point. I don't think there's ever been a time where I've disagreed with him. His sarcasm is cutting and always entertaining to watch. I especially love how he never fails to mention the evil "Macedonians", whenever he is shitting on Hillary Clinton, as the "real" reason why she lost the 2016 presidency.

                        I actually watched that episode that you linked today and how the left wing media is painting Tucker out to be a "Russian Agent" because he is speaking obvious common sense. Meanwhile, the president of Ukraine himself is calling out Biden and his mainstream media minions to calm the fuck down and tone down the anti-Russian rhetoric and talk of an imminent Russian invasion of Kiev.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                          His sarcasm is cutting and always entertaining to watch.
                          His sarcasm is brilliant. Here is an example from today. He showed a clip from a war-mongering republican senator named Jim Risch who was on some anti-Russian rant on CNN and stated that "Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country," to which Tucker replied "Jim Risch is a moron masquerading as a U.S. senator." LOL. He then proceeded to tear him apart by highlighting the defence contractors who sponsor him and his hypocrisy about supporting "democracies" (i.e., Ukraine) on the one hand, while praising dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain on the other. These people have no integrity.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Phoenix
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 4671

                            Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                            Tucker is always on point. I don't think there's ever been a time where I've disagreed with him. His sarcasm is cutting and always entertaining to watch. I especially love how he never fails to mention the evil "Macedonians", whenever he is shitting on Hillary Clinton, as the "real" reason why she lost the 2016 presidency.

                            I actually watched that episode that you linked today and how the left wing media is painting Tucker out to be a "Russian Agent" because he is speaking obvious common sense. Meanwhile, the president of Ukraine himself is calling out Biden and his mainstream media minions to calm the fuck down and tone down the anti-Russian rhetoric and talk of an imminent Russian invasion of Kiev.
                            Nah, it was even more dramatic than a mere "invasion of Kiev"...Biden used medieval descriptors like the sacking of Kiev, that was widely spread across the MSM, only for the WH to start denying it sometime later...

                            The Democrats and their MSM comrades on the left have to get a bit more imaginative when framing their boogeymen to throw at the worlds most gullible...how far can you possibly go with this Russia and Putin narrative before people start waking up to the fact that you've been taking the piss out of them for so long and that the only reason that they do this is to enrich themselves and to cover up their total incompetence at everything they touch.

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                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              SoM, in regards to the referendum that was held in Crimea I am under the impression is is heavily disputed. I think both Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars boycotted the referendum on annexation by Russia
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                SoM, in regards to the referendum that was held in Crimea I am under the impression is is heavily disputed. I think both Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars boycotted the referendum on annexation by Russia
                                Even if they boycotted or if there were some irregularities, the voter turnout was over 80% and over 90% of them opted to join Russia. For historical reasons, most people in Crimea have long preferred such a union, so the result was hardly surprising. From a statistical standpoint, there is little dispute. Even if the true number was a bit less than that which was recorded, the outcome was the will of the majority in the region. Within the context, perceptions on the legitimacy of the referendum are subjective.

                                On the more broader issue, Ukrainians knew their possession of Crimea was conditional. Their politicians rolled the dice in 2014 and lost. Rather than holding on to a relatively new and somewhat hostile acquisition, now some may argue that Ukraine would have been better off without Crimea in the first place. As for the Crimean Tatars, they did have a state in the region for a few centuries. They used their dominance to conduct raids into Ukraine and Russia, capturing hundreds of thousands of Christians and selling them off as slaves to their fellow Muslims in Turkey and the Middle East. That despicable practice was halted with the Russian conquest of Crimea. That doesn't justify what the Tatars suffered during the Soviet period, but it does highlight the complex nature of a region that will most likely remain part of Russia for a long time to come.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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