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  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #31
    Originally posted by Rogi View Post
    Pelister,

    You have spread a whole lot of untruths and rubbish in this thread. There is absolutely no basis at all for any of what you have written.

    You clearly have absolutely no idea about UMD whatsoever.

    Where do you get this idea of you being on some high horse, almost God-like and all-seeing, of things that are not there?

    UMD does not advocate for a compromise on the name. If it did, I would be working to destroy UMD, rather than build it.
    UMD IS advocating for EU and NATO accession for Macedonia, however not at the expense of our Rights and Freedoms as Macedonians.

    You are a sad, sad man if what you've written, is your agenda.
    Oh, isn't that rich. Its almost a direct quote from Crvenko himself - typically ambiguous and full of shite.

    Why on earth would UMD be advocating joining the E.U when half of its members don't recognize the Macedonians ?? You put too much value in these clubs from a Macedonian point of view, and if joining these clubs is at the top of the list of UMD's priorities for Macedonia - while refusing to engage simple principles of self determination and soveriegnty as a basis for all political relationshiops - then UMD means to do Macedonia harm

    UMD support the negotiations. Thats a fact. UMd fully support the position that:


    1. the dispute is legitimate
    2. Greece has legitiamate grievances
    3. that Greeks can be Macedonians too


    For an organisation that claims "it is not political" whats it doing having a secret meeting with Crvenko (the opposition leader of all people)?

    Listen carefully:

    UMD are in the game of transforming the idea of what it means to be a Macedonian.

    If you look at the direction of UMD's politics, its not only heading toward a compromise of the name, but to a geographical qualifier for Macedonia.

    UMD won't defend Macedonians on basic principles of self determination and soveriegnty, but it is ready to accept a "political solution" ! .

    I'll be fucked if I ever let an organization such as this pull the wool over peoples eyes.

    UMD's political position is IDENTICAL to MPO, Vhrovists ... etc.

    Look, if I was a Bulgarian or even a Greek agent who wanted to finally rip the soul out of "what is left" of Macedonia - I would be pouring my money in UMD !

    One ranking member of UMD from Melbourne said on Maknews that changing our name is the only way to move Macedonia out of the dark ages ! What a fucking disgrace. What an ignorant thing to day - someone who knows nothing about Macedonian Christianity over the last 1,700 years.

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #32
      Pelister, we have Rogi saying "UMD does not advocate for a compromise on the name."

      We then have you saying "Oh, isn't that rich. Its almost a direct quote from Crvenko himself".

      Crvenko has advocated a compromise on the name.

      How do you reconcile this? Are you suggesting the UMD is lying to everyone?
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Pelister
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 2742

        #33
        What I am saying is that UMD supports the negotiation process - it therefore supports the Greek position, even though this is a direct attack on Macedonia.

        Some members of UMD have openly stated on Maknews that Macedonia should compromise its name to join NATO - Bushav being one of them. [Another one has said it must if it is to "move out of the dark ages". I'm not prepared to let shite like that slide.]

        I even asked Meto what his position on a name compromise was - and he would not respond.

        Furthermore, I sent a letter to Meto asking him to outline his defence against a name change - and he refused to respond. This was after I did alot of work for Meto on the Gorani (before I knew his politics).

        I know what they are saying, RTG.

        Roqi used the term "diplomatic" to refer to the more political senstive language.

        That is part of the problem.

        Why does UMD have to be "political sensitive" when all we and anyone else are talking about is standing up for our self determination and soveriegnty.

        I think their language is sometimes deliberately ambiguous, and I don't trust an organization, which tries to "mask" what it stands for. There are just too many holes in its actions, the remarks of its members, and its language to be trusted.

        And in its "big move" it asked for the suspencion of name negotiations - not because the negotiations are an attack on our soveriegnty, our history and our culture, but for the fked up reason that Greece wasn't "serious".


        Reality check. Greece is deadly serious, and UMd are fking around.

        Comment

        • Rogi
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2343

          #34
          There's really no point in discussing anything with you. As you've been told numerous times, UMD does not support the negotiation process.

          Whilst in Macedonia, we had a meeting with Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki. I was there. We told them that UMD's position is for Macedonia to withdraw from the absurd negotiations over its name, negotiations which go against the very sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia.

          They disagreed and thought it better to appear prepared to sit on a table and talk about our name, in order to look good for the international community.

          We (UMD) are still pushing for withdrawal with each and every communiqué we have with them.

          Do you want UMD to aplogize for not being a military/terrorist organization because that seems to be the only type of organization you would support.

          UMD is not such an organization and it advocates a completely different approach to achieving the goals of the Macedonian cause.

          Many different types of organizations are needed in order to achieve the goals of the Macedonian cause, some inside Macedonia, some outside Macedonia, some more radical, some based on politics and lobbying, some based on arts and culture, some based on philanthropy, some based on charity, some for human rights, some with business leaders, some with IT experts and hackers, etc etc.

          UMD is a registered not for profit charitable organization and its mission, objectives and goals are Right and based on and aligned with the Macedonian cause.

          I have explained UMD's position to you and you are unwilling to accept anything I've written, but rather you are being quite ignorant and stubborn holding to your own misconceptions and creations.

          One ranking member of UMD from Melbourne said on Maknews that changing our name is the only way to move Macedonia out of the dark ages
          Care to tell us who that was? Other than Ordan Andreevski (who is not a Maknews member) and myself, there are no other 'ranking members of UMD from Melbourne' so you've either made that up, or you are being told stories that you're spreading.



          Finally, stop referring to me as 'Roqi' (with a q) my nickname is 'Rogi' (with a g).
          My name is Igor and my nickname is my name in reverse.

          Comment

          • Pelister
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2742

            #35
            Originally posted by Rogi View Post
            There's really no point in discussing anything with you. As you've been told numerous times, UMD does not support the negotiation process.

            Whilst in Macedonia, we had a meeting with Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki. I was there. We told them that UMD's position is for Macedonia to withdraw from the absurd negotiations over its name, negotiations which go against the very sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia.

            They disagreed and thought it better to appear prepared to sit on a table and talk about our name, in order to look good for the international community.

            We (UMD) are still pushing for withdrawal with each and every communiqué we have with them.

            Do you want UMD to aplogize for not being a military/terrorist organization because that seems to be the only type of organization you would support.

            UMD is not such an organization and it advocates a completely different approach to achieving the goals of the Macedonian cause.

            Many different types of organizations are needed in order to achieve the goals of the Macedonian cause, some inside Macedonia, some outside Macedonia, some more radical, some based on politics and lobbying, some based on arts and culture, some based on philanthropy, some based on charity, some for human rights, some with business leaders, some with IT experts and hackers, etc etc.

            UMD is a registered not for profit charitable organization and its mission, objectives and goals are Right and based on and aligned with the Macedonian cause.

            I have explained UMD's position to you and you are unwilling to accept anything I've written, but rather you are being quite ignorant and stubborn holding to your own misconceptions and creations.



            Care to tell us who that was? Other than Ordan Andreevski (who is not a Maknews member) and myself, there are no other 'ranking members of UMD from Melbourne' so you've either made that up, or you are being told stories that you're spreading.



            Finally, stop referring to me as 'Roqi' (with a q) my nickname is 'Rogi' (with a g).
            My name is Igor and my nickname is my name in reverse.

            That is reassuring.

            I'd like you to produce some of these "communiques" and I can find out from the other end, whether they are genuine.

            Here is the problem Rogi.

            1. Your telling me UMD are pushing to "withdraw from the absurd negotiations" on the grounds that its an attack on Macedonian sovereignty.

            2. PUBLICLY UMD has called for a "suspension" (not a withdraw) and not on the grounds you are stating to me - rather on the grounds that UMD thinks the Greeks are not "serious". (This very public position tells me that a name change is acceptable to UMD as long as the Greeks are reasonable about it! Its a shifty round-a-bout way of saying it, but its there plain as day).

            Say one thing, do something else.

            So you can understand that when I think of two-faced snakes - I think of UMD.


            Secondly,

            I've been in contact (by accident) with a small number of very competent and intelligent people who left UMD because they did not agree with Meto's politics regarding the name, and Meto's politics regarding the negotiations. I have no reason to doubt their word - they left on ideological grounds.

            Also, someone let it slip on Maknews that a name change for NATO membership was acceptable. I only found out later that they were a UMD member close to Meto.

            So I confronted the individuals in question, and finally I confronted Meto about it. He would not respond, or give me an answer (I took this personally, because I did some work for him).

            UMD is a playing politics, so you can spin the whole "non-profit" spiel all you want.

            Given UMD's public announcements, the ideological division between who is there now, and those who left, as well as that ideas of some members of UMD expressed on Maknews - I would have to conclude that UMD's politics is bad for Macedonia, and bad for the Macedonians, and if Greeks and Bulgars got wind of what UMD was really about - you would have an endless supply of money.

            I'm not a militant, and some your personal attacks don't bother me. I'm a greenie, and a humanist - I'm a Christian and my Macedonian ancestors were brutalized and tortured by the Greeks - and UMD doesn't give a fuck.

            Comment

            • Rogi
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2343

              #36
              Firstly, I have not personally attacked you anywhere in this thread. I have re-read my posts and do not see how it can be read as a personal attack.

              Secondly, I have sent you a private message. I hope you are able to respond to it

              Comment

              • Jankovska
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1774

                #37
                Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                That is reassuring.

                I'd like you to produce some of these "communiques" and I can find out from the other end, whether they are genuine.

                Here is the problem Rogi.

                1. Your telling me UMD are pushing to "withdraw from the absurd negotiations" on the grounds that its an attack on Macedonian sovereignty.

                2. PUBLICLY UMD has called for a "suspension" (not a withdraw) and not on the grounds you are stating to me - rather on the grounds that UMD thinks the Greeks are not "serious". (This very public position tells me that a name change is acceptable to UMD as long as the Greeks are reasonable about it! Its a shifty round-a-bout way of saying it, but its there plain as day).

                Say one thing, do something else.

                So you can understand that when I think of two-faced snakes - I think of UMD.


                Secondly,

                I've been in contact (by accident) with a small number of very competent and intelligent people who left UMD because they did not agree with Meto's politics regarding the name, and Meto's politics regarding the negotiations. I have no reason to doubt their word - they left on ideological grounds.

                Also, someone let it slip on Maknews that a name change for NATO membership was acceptable. I only found out later that they were a UMD member close to Meto.

                So I confronted the individuals in question, and finally I confronted Meto about it. He would not respond, or give me an answer (I took this personally, because I did some work for him).

                UMD is a playing politics, so you can spin the whole "non-profit" spiel all you want.

                Given UMD's public announcements, the ideological division between who is there now, and those who left, as well as that ideas of some members of UMD expressed on Maknews - I would have to conclude that UMD's politics is bad for Macedonia, and bad for the Macedonians, and if Greeks and Bulgars got wind of what UMD was really about - you would have an endless supply of money.

                I'm not a militant, and some your personal attacks don't bother me. I'm a greenie, and a humanist - I'm a Christian and my Macedonian ancestors were brutalized and tortured by the Greeks - and UMD doesn't give a fuck.

                Hey Pelister

                Did you say you contact UMD directly and asked for answers? What was the response?

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  #38
                  No response, Jankovska.

                  And I know of a couple people who left UMd because of ideological differences with its leadership - and the people who left were asking for nothing more than the defence and preservation of the Macedonian identity. UMd have said that they are not into the business of defending Macedonian rights ...etc, they are a different kind of political organization.

                  Comment

                  • Bratot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2855

                    #39
                    Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.
                    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                      Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.
                      Your probably right, and I'm kinda pleased I was able to read what your wrote and understand it. I've been tyring to teach myself to read in Macedonian. Thanks.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                        Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.

                        Bratot,

                        What kind of discussions are you refering to? I havn't seen any "secrets" revealed in this post. Noone has asked for personal details, details of planned events or activities, details on the internal structures of the organisation or any other details that could compromise UMD activities.

                        The debate has centred around UMD policies and its stand on critical issues of national importance. These are fundamental questions for any individual or organisation that engages in PUBLIC activity.

                        Your comment (whether intentional or unintetional) serves to stiffle critical debate over an organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE, but has been unable to answer questions relating to the fundamental issues that it supposedly represents us on.

                        One suggestion I would provide to UMD is, rather than spending so much time and energy on marketing the organisation, it would be wiser to sit down and work out what the organisation actually stands for. That way they would not run into so many 'heated' debates over their policies and principles.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Bratot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2855

                          #42
                          Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

                          First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

                          Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

                          Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


                          And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
                          Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".
                          The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                            Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

                            First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

                            Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

                            Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


                            And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
                            Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".
                            Bratot,

                            I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.

                            I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

                            Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #44
                              Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
                              The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
                              The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
                              Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Vangelovski
                                Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".
                                Ok, for the sake of objectivity, let me throw one from the other end. Vangelovski, is not what you wrote above stipulated in the UMD mission statement that Risto posted on the first page of this thread? What exactly do you require elaboration on? Specific details?

                                You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish, and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.

                                I wish to ask you two things in particular:

                                (1) Can you show me an organisation that exists as you envision it, and if so, are you a member?

                                (2) If not, why are you not taking the necessary steps to initiate and develop an organisation as you envision it?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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