United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    Volk wrote:

    What else can greece do if we abandon the talks??

    They will take a course to directly destroy our state.
    .

    Volk, this kind of scenario is irrational, and unrealistic. Some of the evidence has been made public, here, which you wantonly ignore. The thing about UMD is that we know exactly what the organization stands for - through its public statements (some of them posted in this thread). We know more about the organization from the viewpoint of individual members, on the board and in leadership, and one of the strong convictions pushed by some members of the UMD board is that anyone can be a Macedonian, and that the Macedonian nationality, could include Greeks, not only presently, but significantly in historical terms. UMD were looking for evidence to support the assertion. Its a dangerous game they are playing.

    Comment

    • Volk
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 894

      Pelister,

      I dont agree that any evidence has been given here or anywhere (that i have seen) to discredit the UMD in the matter your discussing.

      You seem to have 'inside knowledge' which I cannot rule out, however I cannot simply trust 2-3 disgruntled former members (I am assuming you are) particularly by the 'evidence' presented by Tom.

      I have an open mind but i cannot judge until there is substance and for me there is still no substance behind the accusations you have made.
      Makedonija vo Srce

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Volk, I think there is always going to be room for doubt in relation to the UMD until they really toughen up their approach and take some decisive actions on behalf of the Diaspora. At the moment, we are seeing strategies replete with "double speak". Who on Earth are they afraid of offending?
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Volk
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 894

          I think there is always going to be room for doubt in relation to the UMD until they really toughen up their approach and take some decisive actions on behalf of the Diaspora
          I agree 100%, however this does not translate into 'predavsktvo' or intentions to change the meaning of what it means to be a Macedonian.

          At the moment, we are seeing strategies replete with "double speak". Who on Earth are they afraid of offending?
          I think they are trying to stay relevant in the eyes of the west, as 'moderates'. I guess time will tell if this is the best strategy. CMK was opposite, they had more influence in MKD, however in terms of influence on US senators they had zero (to my knowledge).
          Makedonija vo Srce

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by Volk View Post
            I agree 100%, however this does not translate into 'predavsktvo' or intentions to change the meaning of what it means to be a Macedonian.
            True.
            But why perpetuate the doubt?
            It is an easy victory to make the Diaspora happier by using strong statements backed up with strong actions. I have no doubt that every true Macedonian wants the UMD to be relevant. I do.

            It would be a shame to see this structure go to waste.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Rogi
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2343

              I would still like to see the Macedonian Cause defined and that definition to be adopted by each and every Macedonian organisation to serve as their mission statement and basis for existence.

              That helps eliminate the possibility of double-speak as all actions and statements can then be immediately weight up against the definition of the cause.
              You can still be diplomatic and moderate, without causing inadvertent harm to our cause.

              It is a very strong way to hold all Macedonian organisations accountable for their every word and every action.

              I tried to write up a draft for one such definition, and hoped to get some feedback on how to perfect it. Unfortunately, there seems to be no such interest for that from any persons or organisations. At least not yet anyway - I think when more realise the importance and need for such a definition it will gain momentum.
              Last edited by Rogi; 05-14-2009, 03:55 AM.

              Comment

              • Volk
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 894

                Good point Rogi...


                One question that is of massive national significance is the Aegean Macedonia question... Do we as a nation concede it? If not do we strategys to recover it over the long term?

                We have no national blue print and this is the problem

                Washing our hands of Aegean Macedonia means giving the greeks legitimacy over the name which would be catastrophic in a national sense that would effect our history and future.

                Vo mnogu tesko mesto sme
                Makedonija vo Srce

                Comment

                • Vangelovski
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 8531

                  Volk,

                  I can understand why you support UMD so much, you yourself have said on this very thread that you would support a name other than the 'Republic of Macedonia' for the sake of NATO membership.

                  The evidence in relation to UMD's disastrous policy position is in their own public statements, which have been pointed out to you time and again, but you will continue to support such organisations because they actually represent your views.

                  I can provide much more information, but if you can't or won't understand what's being put out in public, why would you bother listening to the people who have been on the board for years. Though, you're inability to understand basic concepts does not surprise me - on Maknews you've quoted Ivanov effectively saying that the double-formula is not an option and then stated that he does not say what you yourself just quoted him saying.
                  Last edited by Vangelovski; 05-14-2009, 08:29 AM.
                  If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                  The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                  Comment

                  • Volk
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 894

                    Nemoj da seris mnogu, stanuva mnogu dosadno i pocnuva da smrdi.
                    Makedonija vo Srce

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      It would be a great time for the UMD to stand up for what it believes in.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        Волк,

                        Вие самите се серите со вашето охрабрување за оние што работат за исполнување на Предвремениот и Рамковиот Договор. Добро ги познавам "активистите" од вашиот тип.
                        Last edited by Vangelovski; 05-14-2009, 07:09 PM.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8531

                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          It would be a great time for the UMD to stand up for what it believes in.
                          UMD is standing up for what it believes in - the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement (and everything that goes with them). The problem is that a lot of people want UMD to believe in something else.
                          Last edited by Vangelovski; 05-14-2009, 07:10 PM.
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Volk
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 894

                            Tom,
                            I am not part of UMD so addressing me as such is pointless.

                            I refuse to enter a debate with you when you deliberately misinterpret and warp what I say.

                            Lastly you can calling for the abandonment of both the accords and agreements that have placed us in this situation and openly call people and organizations that do not share your view traitors.

                            However you cannot put forward a plan where this would be possible, countering both albanian and greek moves as well as IC pressure that would surely come. Without a a solid plan your calls are reckless as the only thing they do is instigate an albanian revolt, greek embargo and IC isolation all simultaneously (which is what you seem to call for). We have done this dance and you simply cannot answer the hard questions, you only have the ideas (which we all want but cannot find a means to get there)- until you provide the means the calls are close to futile.
                            Makedonija vo Srce

                            Comment

                            • NikodimMKD
                              Banned
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 187

                              Originally posted by Volk View Post
                              Tom,
                              I am not part of UMD so addressing me as such is pointless.

                              I refuse to enter a debate with you when you deliberately misinterpret and warp what I say.

                              Lastly you can calling for the abandonment of both the accords and agreements that have placed us in this situation and openly call people and organizations that do not share your view traitors.

                              However you cannot put forward a plan where this would be possible, countering both albanian and greek moves as well as IC pressure that would surely come. Without a a solid plan your calls are reckless as the only thing they do is instigate an albanian revolt, greek embargo and IC isolation all simultaneously (which is what you seem to call for). We have done this dance and you simply cannot answer the hard questions, you only have the ideas (which we all want but cannot find a means to get there)- until you provide the means the calls are close to futile.

                              Volk brings up some valid points. Any course of action should be carefully studied. We cannot just act in haste.

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Volk,

                                We have done this dance before and your scaremongering has been shown for what it is. An Albanian revolt? A Greek embargo? International isolation? Perhaps you would like to expand on your doomsday scenario? Oh thats right, once you do, you'll be shown for the fraud that you are. Please Volk, tell us exactly how the Macedonian people must submit - tell us exactly what will happen to us if we do not submit to idiotic whims so that I can expose you for who you are again, without Lubi here to delete the threads.

                                With freedom comes responsibility - if we as people can't handle that, then maybe we don't deserve our freedom.
                                Last edited by Vangelovski; 05-14-2009, 08:20 PM.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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