Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • Pelagonija
    Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 533

    I feel as though we have to give some credit to the northerners, they are right they are not related to the likes of Goce Delcev, their motto was Sloboda ili smrt, the northerners motto is if you cant beat them join them after bending over and selling their mothers.

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

      Yugo fanatics and srbomani couldn't care less about Delcev. I don't think they're what's holding back him and the other two morons you mentioned.
      Sorry, that's not what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines that Srbomani and Yugo fanatics don't have a soft spot for Bulgarians.

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        Remember all the way back when warned people that as soon as we capitulate to Greece that Bulgaria will be next in line? Yeah it took a whole few months for that to happen.

        Personally for me this is worse. Antiquity, although important, is still antiquity. The bulgars are going after the people who founded our modern nation. The people who make up our modern identity. If you walk away from Delcev and others like him, what is left? At that point you are starting an identity from scratch in 2019.

        If you let the Bulgars push you around you have really hit rock bottom.
        It shows the fundamental absence of any integrity and principles in the EU. The whole veto concept has allowed Greece and Bulgaria to blackmail Macedonians in order to pursue their own nationalistic and chauvinistic agendas. That the EU allows this is hypocritical at best.

        But Macedonians set the precedent by allowing others to bully them and blackmail them when the alternative was to simply ignore them.

        Soon they'll just be Albanian-speaking Western Bulgarians from the North.

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337



          History professor Vanco Georgiev, who is part of the joint committee with Bulgaria, qualified the approach from the Bulgarian members as threats and said that they were raising issues since last year. According to Georgiev, Bulgarian members of the committee want to declare 1944 as the year when the Macedonian nation was first formed.

          No nation exists without a process, the nations are constructs and they go through stages of development. And yet, since our first meetings ,we had these indecent threats, that Goce Delcev is a Bulgarian and if we don’t accept that, we will be vetoed. Their proposal doesn’t state that Goce Delcev is a Bulgarian, but indirectly it is said that he comes from a Bulgarian family, went to a Bulgarian school.. The final meeting was more tense. I don’t think we will be able to stick to our program, some of them want radicalization, others want to stage a walk out and some want a veto, Georgiev said.

          Bulgaria conditions its support for Macedonia’s EU and NATO accession with the work of the committee, which is supposed to establish a shared historic narrative.

          Georgiev adds that he sees the political fights that erupted in Bulgaria as a smoke-screen. Bulgarian conservatives seized on a proposal to jointly celebrate the 1946 date when Goce Delcev’s body was brought to Skopje and interred in the St. Spas church as an insult from the Macedonian side. But their vitriol is largely aimed at the Bulgarian left, given that the decision to bring the body to Skopje was made by the then Bulgarian Communist Party.

          Their goal is to scandalize other fundamental issues, such as the Ilinden Uprising, other revolutionaries and work their way up to 1944. This is where they draw the line, as if we exist starting in 1944, and before that nothing exists, Georgiev said.

          Bulgarian nationalists insist that the Macedonian nation was made up in Yugoslav times, starting in 1944, and that before, the Macedonians were in fact Bulgarians.

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
            Pendarovski: Delchev declared himself a Bulgarian and fought for an independent Macedonian state

            Source: https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/30013271.html
            Lazar Kolishevski apparently said something similar long time ago (translation from the Serbian article):

            "Lazar Kolishevski, one of the leading Macedonian communists, immediately after the war, said that Delchev was a Bulgarian who does not have any special merit for the struggle of the Macedonian people."

            URL:
            После 53 године, из пописа улица Новог Београда могло би да буде избрисано име македонског револуционара Гоце Делчева (1872–1903). Упражњено место на уличној табли већ сада је резервисано за совјетског маршала Фјодора Ивановича Толбухина. Његово име биће уписано у мапу престонице само уколико Скупштина града прихвати иницијативу министра унутрашњих послова Небојше Стефановића да се престоници, између осталог, поново врати Улица маршала Толбухина. Одлука да се новобеоградска саобраћајница назове по совјетском хероју сасвим је природна, сматра градски менаџер Горан Весић, јер Гоце Делчев, као оснивач и вођа Македонске револуционарне организације и Бугарске македонско-одринске револуционарне организације (БМОРО), ионако „није задужио Србију нити Београд својим делима, већ је политика

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
              Lazar Kolishevski apparently said something similar long time ago (translation from the Serbian article):

              "Lazar Kolishevski, one of the leading Macedonian communists, immediately after the war, said that Delchev was a Bulgarian who does not have any special merit for the struggle of the Macedonian people."

              URL:
              После 53 године, из пописа улица Новог Београда могло би да буде избрисано име македонског револуционара Гоце Делчева (1872–1903). Упражњено место на уличној табли већ сада је резервисано за совјетског маршала Фјодора Ивановича Толбухина. Његово име биће уписано у мапу престонице само уколико Скупштина града прихвати иницијативу министра унутрашњих послова Небојше Стефановића да се престоници, између осталог, поново врати Улица маршала Толбухина. Одлука да се новобеоградска саобраћајница назове по совјетском хероју сасвим је природна, сматра градски менаџер Горан Весић, јер Гоце Делчев, као оснивач и вођа Македонске револуционарне организације и Бугарске македонско-одринске револуционарне организације (БМОРО), ионако „није задужио Србију нити Београд својим делима, већ је политика

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Koli%C5%A1evski
              Do you have a source other than Serbian or Bulgarian propaganda for that quote? I can't find the origins of that quote by Kolishevski. I'm not saying he didn't say that, but it be nice to actually have a source. In his own essay called Aspects of the Macedonian Question, Kolisevski said that Goce Delcev used the Bulgarian language in written communication because he was educated in Bulgaria, but that he was a Macedonian and used the Macedonian language in speech with fellow Macedonians.

              I'm not defending Pendarovski, but that title that you quoted is not even close to being an accurate description of what he said.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                Do you have a source other than Serbian or Bulgarian propaganda for that quote? I can't find the origins of that quote by Kolishevski. I'm not saying he didn't say that, but it be nice to actually have a source. In his own essay called Aspects of the Macedonian Question, Kolisevski said that Goce Delcev used the Bulgarian language in written communication because he was educated in Bulgaria, but that he was a Macedonian and used the Macedonian language in speech with fellow Macedonians.

                I'm not defending Pendarovski, but that title that you quoted is not even close to being an accurate description of what he said.
                I couldn't find it. I will do some more research.

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                  I couldn't find it. I will do some more research.
                  Thanks. I'll look too.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                    Thanks. I'll look too.
                    It might be difficult to track down the original quote/source, if any.

                    I just found the following on pressingtv.mk - it was stated by the Bulgarian Topalov:

                    "Лазар Колишевски, имал изјава за Гоце Делчев и тоа во 46-та година, кога Бугарија и ги дала на Македонија неговите мошти.

                    Таа изјава ја има во архивот на македонскиот институт во Скопје. Лазар Колишевски вели-Гоце Делчев е еден Бугарин без значење за ослободителните борби. Значи, дури тој, би го нарекол крволок на македонизирањето на Македонија и на ликвидирањето на бугарската свест таму, не мислел дека некогаш може да се стигне до таков фалсификат, до такво неверојатно нешто, Гоце Делчев да биде претворен во знаме на македонизмот и да биде целосно откинат од својата врска со Бугарија, изјави Топалов."

                    URL:
                    Не е само Гоце Делчев. Гоце Делчев е една од основите фигури врз која македонизмот го гради својот идентите во...
                    Last edited by Carlin; 06-22-2019, 11:20 AM.

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      That same Bulgarian said:

                      "Гоце Делчев се нарекувал Бугарин и се борел за бугарската кауза на Македонија."

                      There is no evidence that Goce Delcev fought for the Bulgarian cause, but rather there is evidence he fought for the Macedonian cause. Bulgarians have manipulated history beyond belief, which is why citing them is dangerous.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        That same Bulgarian said:

                        "Гоце Делчев се нарекувал Бугарин и се борел за бугарската кауза на Македонија."

                        There is no evidence that Goce Delcev fought for the Bulgarian cause, but rather there is evidence he fought for the Macedonian cause. Bulgarians have manipulated history beyond belief, which is why citing them is dangerous.
                        Topalov also said that prior to World War II Macedonians had Bulgarian ethnic and national identity and also state Bulgarian consciousness, which is ridiculous. (He said his paternal ancestors hail from Debar.)

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                          The Balkans don't have journalism, only tabloids that pretend to be news outlets.

                          Remember all the way back when warned people that as soon as we capitulate to Greece that Bulgaria will be next in line? Yeah it took a whole few months for that to happen.

                          Personally for me this is worse. Antiquity, although important, is still antiquity. The bulgars are going after the people who founded our modern nation. The people who make up our modern identity. If you walk away from Delcev and others like him, what is left? At that point you are starting an identity from scratch in 2019.

                          If you let the Bulgars push you around you have really hit rock bottom.
                          URL:


                          Georgiev: Bulgarian historians want to set 1944 as the starting line of the Macedonian nation

                          History professor Vanco Georgiev, who is part of the joint committee with Bulgaria, qualified the approach from the Bulgarian members as threats and said that they were raising issues since last year. According to Georgiev, Bulgarian members of the committee want to declare 1944 as the year when the Macedonian nation was first formed.

                          No nation exists without a process, the nations are constructs and they go through stages of development. And yet, since our first meetings ,we had these indecent threats, that Goce Delcev is a Bulgarian and if we don’t accept that, we will be vetoed. Their proposal doesn’t state that Goce Delcev is a Bulgarian, but indirectly it is said that he comes from a Bulgarian family, went to a Bulgarian school.. The final meeting was more tense. I don’t think we will be able to stick to our program, some of them want radicalization, others want to stage a walk out and some want a veto, Georgiev said.

                          Bulgaria conditions its support for Macedonia’s EU and NATO accession with the work of the committee, which is supposed to establish a shared historic narrative.

                          Georgiev adds that he sees the political fights that erupted in Bulgaria as a smoke-screen. Bulgarian conservatives seized on a proposal to jointly celebrate the 1946 date when Goce Delcev’s body was brought to Skopje and interred in the St. Spas church as an insult from the Macedonian side. But their vitriol is largely aimed at the Bulgarian left, given that the decision to bring the body to Skopje was made by the then Bulgarian Communist Party.

                          Their goal is to scandalize other fundamental issues, such as the Ilinden Uprising, other revolutionaries and work their way up to 1944. This is where they draw the line, as if we exist starting in 1944, and before that nothing exists, Georgiev said.

                          Bulgarian nationalists insist that the Macedonian nation was made up in Yugoslav times, starting in 1944, and that before, the Macedonians were in fact Bulgarians.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            Do you have a source other than Serbian or Bulgarian propaganda for that quote? I can't find the origins of that quote by Kolishevski. I'm not saying he didn't say that, but it be nice to actually have a source.
                            It might be a false quote given their (Bulgarian propagandists) propensity for lying, but Kolishevski was an opportunistic piece of dirt so I wouldn't put it past him either.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              Within a minute we can see misquoted events above by the Bulgarians about Pendarovski. Why would we think they were more sincere back 100 years ago?
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • vicsinad
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 2337

                                Former Bulgarian President Georgi Prvanov accused Macedonia of taking unfriendly positions against Bulgaria. Prvanov blamed Prime Minister Boyko Borisov for...


                                Is it only with Macedonians that you see so many people trying so hard not to be what they are? The Bulgarian and Greek propaganda machines managed to indoctrinate a lot of Macedonians into being the most ardent Bulgarian and Greek nationalists.


                                Former Bulgarian President Georgi Prvanov accused Macedonia of taking unfriendly positions against Bulgaria. Prvanov blamed Prime Minister Boyko Borisov for not pushing hard enough in the treaty he signed with Zoran Zaev in 2017, and said that Greece got it right by outlining all its requests in the Prespa treaty.

                                "We see the birth of anti-Bulgarian Macedonianism in its most brutal form," Prvanov said.

                                According to Prvanov, it was wrong to accept the creation of a joint committee of historians without a strong mandate. Historians from the two countries are debating various issues, and the historic positions are backed with their right to veto Macedonia’s EU and NATO accession. The Macedonian side already accepted to jointly honor a number of historic figures, who are now considered part of a “shared” history, but an impasse occured over the Bulgarian request that Goce Delcev is declared a Bulgarian hero.

                                "For me, the key is to request that the Ilinden – Preobrazenie Uprising is declared Bulgarian in its character, and that the population involved had a Bulgarian consciousness. If that is resolved favorably, it is clear that other processes going back in history had a Bulgarian character," Prvanov said.

                                Bulgarian nationalists insist that there is no Macedonian nation or history separate from the Bulgarian, and this is reflected in the demands raised during the talks of the historians. The word Macedonianism is used to denote the Macedonian nation as an artificial concept.

                                Prvanov originates from the Pirin Macedonia region, and is a historian. While President, he was lustrated after it was revealed that he was a Bulgarian secret service collaborator tasked with helping the service develop a historical narrative toward Macedonia that favors Bulgarian positions.

                                Comment

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