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  • Sarafot
    Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 616

    #16
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    Брате, со тоа не се согласвам, читаи долу:

    ......и поимъ братъ свои игуменъ Мефедии иди же, ви бо есть Селуненина, да Селунене вьси чьсто словаеньски бесаедують.....


    That is how the original is written Sarafot. And as to which came first, Sloveni or Slavjani, it would again most likely depend on the source. What I do know for sure is that the Life of SS Methodius (Житие Методи) writes Sloveni, and this is a native piece of writing from Macedonia in the 9-10th century.
    In that Žitie also say that he is a greek right?So how can he speak slavic language and then teach others to?Thouse old books are full of mistake,like my english spelling,in many books things are written and rewritten,tray ILIADA,it is full of Slavic words,and greeks say(and world) it is about greeks....dont you think that word greek(helenic) was something like balkaner today,i mean regional mark,like persians and greeks,today it will be Europeans and Asians..?
    Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
    - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #17
      I have read most of the book and don't recall any text in which they are referred to as 'Greeks'. The book was most likely written by SS Kliment Ohridski at the turn of 9th-10th century, historically it is extremely significant.

      With regard to the 'Hellenic' (and 'Greek' for that matter) name, indeed it has come to mean various things throughout history, there is no doubt about that.

      @Slovak, thanks for the follow up information, hope you are well, it has been a while since you posted. I sent you a pm too a few weeks ago
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Sarafot
        Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 616

        #18
        Slovak can you tell me the source?
        This is one way of my thoths.

        Russian Texts on the Ancient Greek Vessel Drawings

        Chudinov Valery

        Abstract

        Russian texts on the Ancient Greek vessel drawings were revealed. The drawings were taken from the Mythology Encyclopedia (in two volumes) where were copied the outlook of the Ancient Greek vessels as illustration to the Greek myths. The Russian words were constructed from the different signs (mainly in Cyrillic) of drawing details, for example of the hero’s hair curlicues, of the clothes’ folds, of the boot-stripes and so on. On a drawing was written the name of the Ancient Greek state: “Grako-Sclavinova Derzhava”, i.e. “Greek-Sclavin State”. It means that so called “Ancient Hellada” was not pure Hellenes State, but mixed, composing of great bulk of Slavs (Graks and Sclavines). From these drawings Russian texts we can obtain additional information about the Greek mythology (for example, what was the matter not to take by Theseus the Minas daughter Ariadna) as well as about some ethnics and geographical names (for example: Theseus was a Slav). All the texts were written in Russian, the ancient language of international communication.

        On the Greek vases I have met a lot of the inscriptions written in Russian by Cyrillic. After I was convinced that a number of figures contain the Slavic text entered in them, I have passed to regular studying images on the Greek vessels. I bring the most interesting figures and inscriptions in given article.

        Aid and Persephone. As the first attempt I have decided to test a new method of research on the first image with kilik about 430 years up to AD, stored in Londonin the British museum. I began to examine illustrations of the Encyclopedia from article on the letter A and consequently among the first appeared Aid, represented semi lying together with his sitting wife Persephone (so it is spoken in accompanying text). In a hand he holds a bowl, fig. 1. It is a lot of the folds on clothes, but whether they are being read is a question. By virtue of that a vessel with red drawings, instead of black drawings, lines of folds on his clothes are visible much worse.

        I start reading with on a stomach of the man, and I turn them on 90 grades to the right so the column of letters and marks is formed. I read it У АИДА (WITH AID), and hardly finer two marks more to the right are read as word ДАРЪ (GIFT). Little bit illegible inscription which can be understood as word СЬЛАВЯНЪ (OF SLAVS) adjoins to mark РЪ of this word. Then I read headdress of Aid where at the manipulation of colors (transit from positive to negative) it is possible to make out word ГОСТИТЪ (TO BE GUEST), and also top of his head under his hat - there some marks too demand the manipulation with color, forming word ГЕТЕРА (HETAERA). So, gift of slavs to Aid appears that STAYS with him HETAERA.

        What it for such HEATERA which can be counted gift of Slavs? Still the answer to this question more to the right is read: word РУСЬ (RUSS, RUSSIA). So, gift of Slavs to Aid appears Russia. Then I read very many inscriptions on a right sleeve of “Persephone”, that is HETERA -RUS, and they give rather extensive text: RUSS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF WHOLE CYCLE OF THE GRAK-SCLAVIN’S STATE (ГЪРАКО-СЬКЪЛАВИНОВОЙ ДЕРЪЖАВЫ). It - surprising lines! They assert that there was a uniform Greek-Slavic power; thus Greeks are named ГРАКИ (from the word GORA – MOUNTAIN and GORAKI or GORCI – MOUNTAIN INHABITANS) , and Slavs – СКЛАВИНЫ.

        The surname “GRAKOV” in Russia is known; brothers Graks are known and in Rome. As if to SCLAVINS, such name exists at Slavic peoples which in medieval time occupied Germany in Mecklenburg. Thus, Greeceat the time under investigation was not at all Hellada, that is not the country of Hellenes, but the Grako-Slavic state where, certainly, there was a Slavic language. And in the given picture, that Russia in quality of HETAERA metaphorically affirms, that is the educated and independent woman, has come on a visit to itself Aid, (metaphorically - to Greece) and from this moment the new cycle of development of the incorporated Grako-Slavic power on the Balkan begins. So Slavs were not only on Crete in structure of Kritovska Russia, they formed the uniform state with Greeks, that is territorially borders of Russia were much wider, than we can see on the vessel with image of Zeus and Prometheus.

        Aid and Persephone

        Fig.1. Aid and Persephone

        Rather difficult inscription for reading is in area of a pillow. Hardly getting a grasp in it, I have decided, that there am written ARE PEACEFULLY TALKING (РЕЧАТ) that is PEACEFULLY CONVERSE. Brushes of hands at turn of this fragment on 90 grades to the left form an inscription IT IS TIME TO DRINK the WINE. At last, on a hair dress of hetaera tapes form marks of a word GLORY. So, such text has turned out: AID HAS GIFT of SLAVS - STAYS HETAERA-RUSS. ARE PEACEFULLY TALKING. RUSS from the very BEGINNING of the WHOLE CYCLE of GRAKO-SKLAVINOVA STATE. IT IS TIME TO DRINK the WINE. GLORY! Here I count total 21 words.

        As well as on former kilik, the attribution of it is made inexact: not AID AND PERSEPHONE, but AID AND HETAERA “RUSS”. By the way, any specialist on antiquity as I believe, such hetaera as Russ does not know.

        My reading of inscriptions on kilik

        Fig. 2. My reading of inscriptions on kilik

        Argonauts. Though in the given Encyclopedia some images came across me, however not all from them was enough high quality for scanning. This time to me the image on kilik with the red drawings 490-485 years from Durries, stored in the Vatican museum of Rome has attracted. Critics gave such attribution: a Dragon protecting a gold fleece. Jason and Athena. The truth, the image not so large, however to make out necessary details nevertheless it is possible, fig. 2.

        In the beginning I read an inscription formed by teeth of a dragon, and all over again it goes dark marks on a light background, then on the contrary and consequently I pay colors. The inscription says: IT IS JASON (СЕ Ясон) AND THE DRAGON. Thus word СЕ is written by runica, the rest - by Cyrillic. Here I was struck with that the letter Яwhich as believe modern paleographers, has arisen very much late from so called YIUS BIG is superb traced. On the spot we see Cyrillic of the beginning of the fifth century B.C., almost for 1400 up to Cyril. As a matter of fact, the problem has ripened already enough for a long time, and the given texts put us before a dilemma: or Cyrillic has the same age or even more ancient letter in comparison with the Greek alphabet (that at once casts a shadow on authority Cyril), or is right A.T. Fomenko, and all “antiquity” is created in the Western Europe in Renaissance and then authority of Cyril is rescued, but the Western Revival becomes epoch of Great Forgeries. It is poorly both that and another. But also, both in antiquity, and in Revival the Grak-Slavic state somehow is badly entered. In a word, presence of well generated letter Я at ancient Greeks of the classical period put last point above in a question of occurrence of Cyrillic - this alphabet has arisen UP TO the given period (probably, in previous archaic).

        A year before I didn’t know the name of the Cyrillic script before St. Cyril. Now I know it because I could read it on a small statuette which was made 200 thousand years ago. The name was as follows: THE RHOD’S RUNES, or THE RUNES OF RHOD.

        However any individual conclusion demands confirmation. In this case it will be the skin of a dragon on which in positive reading, that is without the manipulation in color, but with turn on 90 grades to the right, word JASON (ЯСОН) is read, and at the manipulation in color in the same place, but hardly it is below possible to read words AND THE DRAGON. So confirmation is. But that me very much confuses, so this tracing of all skin transmitting its construction from scales, a Gothic font which as we know, has arisen in the Medieval Latin letter. Or it existed any earlier? Then in a word, the given text to us has thrown the next riddle.

        Now we shall read inscriptions on a figure of the woman, first of all on her breast ornament. Directly under fat edge of the rock at the left it is read СКЛА, on the right ВЕ (a mark of runica) НИДА, that is СКЛАВЕНИДА (SCLAVENIDA). On the right part of a breast ornament it is possible to read words CHANGE of RUSSIA. Under inscription СКЛАВЕНИДА inscription SCLAVIANKA is read. At last, on a head of the woman it is possible to read a word GLORY.

        Kilik with the dragon picture

        Fig. 3. Kilik with the dragon picture

        So, the number of words in the received text is insignificant: IT IS JASON (СЕ Ясон) AND THE DRAGON. SCLAVENIDA (Склавенида) - CHANGE OF RUSSIA. SCLAVIANKA (СКЛАВЯНКА). GLORY! - All these words 9. But we find out from them, that there was such area on the Earth as SCLAVENIDA - probably, just in that area of Caucasuswhich has visited Jason. By the way, in some cases names Tesey and Jason in Russian translations sound as Tezey and Jazon. In the given texts if they are really ancient, their true sounding on that time is given. And again we are compelled to ascertain: Athens near to Jason does not present any, before him is a Slavic woman without a name from SCLAVENIDA.

        My reading of inscriptions on kilik

        Fig. 4. My reading of inscriptions on kilik

        Image Tesey and Ariadna on stamnos from Apulia

        Fig. 5. Image Tesey and Ariadna on stamnos from Apulia

        Ariadna. Now we shall consider image of Ariadna and Tesey on stamnos from Apulia, concerning to approximately 390 year BC and stored in the Museum of Graceful Arts of Boston (3). Critics have named it “Tesey leaves sleeping Ariadna. There is an episode when overtaken by a storm at island Naxos Tesey, not wishing to carry Ariadna to Athens, has left her when she slept. Ariadna was sponsored by Aphrodite. So the basic characters here are determined, and the boy with wings on the second plan, it, most likely, Erot, aspiring to pull together Tesey and Ariadna.

        Reading we shall start with an inscription on a breast of young man SE TESEY . On hair of the young man on the right the fat font traces I AM A SLAV, and at the left am more thin - ТЕСЕЙ СЕГЕИДЫ, that it is possible to understand as TESEY FROM AEGEIDA. The locks of hair which are beaten out from under a tape on a head of the Aphrodite give reading I HAVE MISTED OVER, that it is possible to understand as a recognition that the Aphrodite was flight on island Naxos with extreme high speed. On a breast ornament of the goddess we see the words I AM APHRODITE whereas the top string forms marks of a word at the left am read STAY HERE, and the thread is lower also marks on the right and downwards from her form words YOU, A FOREIGNER (ЧУЖЕСТРАНЕТС) that is YOU, the STRANGER. If the same ornament to turn in color, on it is possible to read a word FINE. Hardly more to the right and below there the word is read STAY.

        My reading of inscriptions on stamnos

        Fig. 6. My reading of inscriptions on stamnos

        The bottom of an ornament from the right breast of the goddess to the left in direct color is read as AND APHRODITE WILL GIVE YOU, in inverted - as A BELT, wrinkles between the left hand and blouse in area of an elbow it is possible to read as a word TO NIGHT. Further are read wrinkles frills at the top of a skirt under a belt as words TRUTH (is that) I (am), and her fringe - as a word STRONG. The wrinkles of skirts on a right hip draw a word STRONG; same wrinkles on the left shin and a hip are read as a word WITHOUT THE BELT AS WELL. Wrinkles frills on a hem of a skirt in inverted light form a word APHRODITE, and alternation of positive and negative letters can be read as a word DOES NOT TELL LIES. (I shall notice, that last statement is rather surprising: if the Aphrodite convinces, that she does not tell lies, means, there are cases when she lies meaningly). On it inscriptions on a body of the Aphrodite come to an end (or I could not find out them), and I pass(proceed) to reading inscriptions on laces of Ariadna’s bed between caviar of left leg Tesey and up to middle of left hip of Ariadna. In inverted light words are read FOR APHRODITE IT IS NOT NECESSARY, and then more to the right, under the lowered brush of Ariaddna’s hand, alternating positive and negative color letters – words ENTREATIES AND DESPAIR. On an edge separating scallops of a sheet on mattress, words SHE are read and in the inverted color PRESENTS, then in alternation of positive and negative letters THAT BELT, are higher fine font OF (SLAVIC GODDESS) LELYA, then more to the right – (OF) YOUTH AND PLEASURE. At last, on a shock of hear on heads Ариадны, it is possible to read in alternation of the direct and inverted color of word ARIADNA (above) SLEEPS POWERFULLY (below), and on складках skirts on a right hip – IN THE AFTERNOON. So, Ariadna has powerfully fallen asleep in the afternoon, and slept over the groom who has run away from her. It was contrary to intervention of the Aphrodite which was ready to help the girl with the magic belt.

        As a result of reading the small story turns out: TESEY, TESEY FROM AEGEIDA. I AM A SLAV. I AM APHRODITE, I HAVE MISTED OVER. STAND HERE, THE STRANGER FINE, STAY! AND APHRODITE WILL PREZENT YOU A BELT TO NIGHT. THE TRUTH (IS THAT) I (AM) STRONG - STRONG WITHOUT THE BELT. APHRODITE DOES NOT TELL LIES. IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR APHRODITE ENTREATIES AND DESPAIR, SHE PRESENTS THAT BELT OF (SLAVIC GODDESS) LELYA, OF YOUTH AND PLEASURE! - ARIADNA SLEEPS POWERFULLY IN THE AFTERNOON! Total - 50 words.

        During Pushkin’s time such stories in images were named picture-runes. They differ from simple explanations that in them there are both speech from the first person, and presence of emotional retorts. So, for example, the Aphrodite in the given figure appeals to Tesey: Stand here, the stranger fine, stay! Or she speaks about herself: I am strong, strong as well without a belt. (As is known from the Greek mythology, the force of charming of Aphrodite consists in her magic belt). In the given fragment she gathers whether to lend it, whether to present to young girl). Thus, to us for the first time there is a curious narrative genre, as pictures - runes. And from this fact stronger statement follows, than it was possible for itself to allow, reading an inscription on Greek kiliks: If it was possible to assume, that inscriptions are in Russian written in figures of ancient Greek vessels were made only by chance by unfamiliar Slavic masters, now the conclusion should be opposite: stories were written obviously for Slavs as readers whereas for Greeks just any explanations and was not made! As it is one - to write 1-2 word in figure of that character, and absolutely another - to think over on roles the whole stage where poses of each character should be balanced, and for their retorts locks of hair, wrinkles on coverlets of furniture and other elements of a drawing should be stipulated, as well as numerous clothes’ wrinkles. With other words, not the text is entered in available figure, but the figures are planned under the conceived text! Besides creation of letters and marks with imposing of positive and negatively read graphic elements against each other is difficult enough and laborious work on a limit of resolution of a human eye, and nobody will double or triple to itself number of man-hours on drawing of such expensive elements of furnish on the ready image if on similar pictures there will be no steady demand. From these our reasoning the conclusion will be only one: ancient Greek inscriptions on vases were created for Slavs! But to make a competent inscription in Russian could only the Russian person. Existence of the big solvent market of Slavs in territory of ancient Greece now affirms.

        As to the rare Greek inscriptions made obviously - so it is simple giving to Slavic artifacts of east color. So to say, the Greek stylization of Slavic products, and also the explanatory of names of the Greek characters if they are not so familiar to Slavs with own mythology.

        It is the same game of Slavs of the classical period of an ancient Greek history in their mythology, as well as game in XVIII century in all Western Europewhen, for example, French countess Du Barry was represented by the sculptor absolutely naked - as Greek goddess Diana. The same was and in Russia when the Greek-Roman plots did not descend from the pictures of painters or from repertoire of performances of court theatres.

        Thus, completely natural presence on ancient Greek images of Slavic explanatory or the whole stories and, on the contrary, fully necessity absence on them of the Greek inscriptions now is represented.

        Artemide. Fragment of drawing on amphora

        Fig. 7. Artemide. Fragment of drawing on amphora

        Artemide. To this goddess the image on a Greek amphora is devoted of “Master Andokides”, made about 520 years BC. Now amphora is stored in the State museum of Berlin. I have put a fragment of an inscription list on fig. 7. I start reading with завитушек which the goddess holds in a hand. They are read ZHIVINA RUS (RUSSIA OF GODDNESS ZHIVA) is a name to me well familiarly. So, since a neolith, the area of so-called archeological culture Vincha (on place Винча near to Belgrade in Serbia), and later all Balkan referred to as all over again. Further I read a pattern on a head of goddess Artemide, all over again having turned colors, - words TO THE HELIX, - then in the direct image, words IS THE HEAD. On fig. 8 I have specially shown area of reading on additional lines. Then I read area of an ear; hardly more to the left of a helix is ligature which is read as ARTEMIDE (AM) I.

        Rather difficult for reading there was an ornament on lobe of an ear; after several hypotheses I have stopped on reading ТИРОЛЬСЪКЪЯ (FROM TYROL) (though usually suffix is written through SЬ, instead of SЪ), that is TYROLEAN.

        My reading of inscriptions on amphora

        Fig. 8. My reading of inscriptions on amphora

        The accordion of a hood in the bottom part (I too have taken out it on additional lines) further is read - surprising words (reading from below upwards) here follow: I (AM) LADA. Again there is an a confirmation to some opinions in literature that Artemide was an incorporation of Lada. Sticking out bones on brushes of the left hand of the goddess and a subject which she holds, at turn to the right on 900 have reading as words THE GODDESS OF LOVE (Lada was undoubtedly the goddess of love at Slavs, but Artemide those was not considered though behind her admitted ancient statute of fertility goddess). On sleeves of the same hand below is edge (I too take out it) on additional lines) which at reading forms a word QUIET. I understand this remark in the sense that “emotional” the goddess of love at Slavs was not Lada, but Lelya, about whose belt there was a speech in a previous plot; but with Lelya the Aphrodite was connected.

        Thus, though here there is no picture-rune (but it is not necessary to forget, that the given fragment represents not all composition, and an inscription characterizes only one character), but quite good on extent and the contents the text nevertheless is formed: ZHIVINA RUS.- TO THE HELIX IS THE HEAD. ARTEMIDE (AM) I FROM TYROL. I (AM) LADA, THE GODDESS OF QUIET LOVE, consisting of 14 words. If I have correctly read, the text is about goddess Lada from Slavic Tyrol (nowadays it is area of Austria).

        Athena. Here as object of consideration I have chosen a kilik of Durries, dated 480 year BC and nowadays kept in the Museum of an applied art of Munich on which are represented Heracles and Athena. Athena is represented worth, she pours a wine into a bowl of sitting Heracles, and the hero put on himself a lion's skin and from lion's skin his head is put out. Athena in the left hand holds a spear, and her helmet lays beside. I start reading with lion's skin of Heracles, which I unwrap on 90 degrees to the right and I turn in color. Here I read words I (AM) HERACLES OF ZEUS. Without the manipulation in color words HERCULES OF ZEUS are read. Person of Heracles, turned on 180 degrees, forms marks which can be read as a word THE GIANT. On Athena something is dressed on like a chain amour. Having turned it on 90 degrees to the right and having turned in color, it is possible to read repeating words DEVA OF RHOD. Correctness of some investigators which asserted, that ATHENA, daughter of Zeus, isTaina, here is not quite seen. And even opposite, on a tree brunch to which it was declined Athena, it is possible to read word MAYA - a known name of one of Slavic goddesses. Though the word is written very not clear, and there is very small probability of that here is written not MAYA, but TAYNA (SECRET).

        Above hands at Athena are located some ornaments of a dress which I read as RUS OF SLAVS and ZHIVINA RUS. The cape above a skirt forms wrinkles which accordion may be read as word ATHENA, and on a hem of a skirt above feet at the manipulation in color the word OF RHOD is read. At last, on a shank of a plume of a helmet word RODIONOV (OF RHOD) is possible to read. It means that the helmet of Athena belongs to the Slavic god Rhod.

        Heracles and Athena, a fragment of a kilik’s drawing from Durries

        Fig. 9. Heracles and Athena, a fragment of a kilik’s drawing from Durries

        Summarizing inscriptions, we receive such result: I (AM) HERACLES OF ZEUS, HERCULES OF ZEUS, A GIANT. ATHENA (IS) DEVA OF RHOD, MAYA. Her helmet is OF RHOD. RUS OF SLAVS. ZHIVINA RUS. There are only 16 words. Again the question is not about Hellade, but about Russia of Slavs; Greeks here - as though minor and not so significant element. The common result. Readingof inscriptions on ancient Greek images is a fascinating thing. However in our case extraction of concrete results of reading for expansion of the representations about ancient Greek deities and about their mutual relation with their Slavic analogues is not our task, for it is any more not the decision of problems of decoding, but is development, for example, of comparative mythology. As if to only epigraphic problems, how it seems to me, they are executed. It already allows us to draw much more essential conclusions.

        My reading of the kilik’s inscriptions

        Fig. 10. My reading of the kilik’s inscriptions

        First of all, Slavic writing on ancient Greek images is not the interesting assumption as it was thought at begin of investigation, not casual drawing of runica’s knots on fields of figure by the Slavic slave-handicraftsman as it seemed at the first stage, not a small number of figures on the vase executed by Slavs-masters as wrinkled runica as it has come to light some later, and not production of masters of Slavic Crete, one from many areas of ancient Greece where existed drawings on vases well executed with runica with elements of alphabetic vowels and even agreeable as it was revealed at the more late stage. It becomes now more and more clear, that Slavic inscriptions contain practically on all vessels with figures, and thus in all Greek areas. Vessels of Laconia, Durries, Apulia, Crete are considered, but the same is possible to expect and in other Greek areas and policies.

        Existence of the mixed letter and (as it is surprising) existence of Cyrillic is revealed existence of runica as nodular and wrinkled letters. The last was completely unexpected for if runica there were some thousand years, and basically it might be known to ancient Greeks concerning Cyrillic all modern Slavists converged on the period of its occurrence at the end of 860, the latest - 890th years AD. Now it turns out, that Cyrillic approximately on 1400 is more senior, and, certainly, any relation to Greek missionary Constantine - Cyril has no.

        It is possible to speak and about more detailed things. So, there was a use of the letter Я: in structure of word Ясон (Jason) twice, in word Майя, in combinations Я ГЕРАКЛ (I AM HERACLES), Я ЛАДА (I AM LADA), Я АРТЕМИДА (I AM ARTEMIDA), I AM APHRODITE, I AM SLAV, in a word СИЛЬНАЯ (STRONG, twice) etc. Differently, not only there was this letter, but already and the pronoun Я whereas but many old Russian monuments we meet pronoun ЯЗ, and on Old Slavic - pronoun АЗ was generated. Letters Ъ and Ь, for example, in words ПРИКОВАНЪ and ЯВЬ, СИЛЬНАЯ, МОЛЬБ are met also. Letter Ы is submitted in words ЭГЕИДЫ, СЛАВЫ. There is also letter Ф in several forms in a name of the APHRODITE. There would be a letter Б in words МОЛЬБ, БЕЗ, БОГИНЯ. The letter И precisely differs from Н which anywhere does not look as N. There is no letter Э (in a word С ЭГЕИДЫ it is traced СЕГЕИДЫ) and Ц (the word ЧУЖЕСТРАНЕТС is transferred with the final ТС), letter Ч reminds Ц, is not present ЮСЫ, ФИТЫ, ИЖИЦЫ, ЯТИ, i. It turns out, that the alphabet was already generated; also that in Slavic language the sound F already was. On the other hand, on the end of firm consonants sign Ъ with rare exception it was not put. From this point of view the Greek Cyrillic (the script in Greece) stands much closer to a modern civil font, than to medieval “semi-ustav”. And language of inscriptions is very close to modern Russian (for example, at it there is a full form of adjectives). While for this purpose I do not find any explanation, for me it is the same riddle, as well as for any other researcher.

        At the same time it was found out, that in 550 year BC Cyrillic looks quite generated so the period of its formation should be attributed to earlier time. As runica is more senior than any alphabetic letter, it is possible to state the assumption, as the alphabetic letter all over again was generated at Slavs, and then was already borrowed by ancient Greeks. But as researchers at Greeks carry formation of the alphabet somewhere by VIII century BC the period of formation of Cyrillic should be removed further away - to IX or even to X century BC. On the contrary, occurrence of nasal sounds might occur at the end of the first millennium AD and then might exist YUSES for their fixing.

        Other assumption consists that, really, similarities between antique and modern Russian of languages was greater, than it is possible for itself to present, as in Russian many alien elements of which our language was cleared later were brought in Middle Ages because of occurrence Old Slavic language. But in any case there was the most interesting epigraphically and a language problem which demands the decision.

        Anyway, but if to share sights of traditional chronology, before us opens the opportunity to read in Russian texts of 2,5-thousand-year prescription, that just in 2,5 times overcomes opportunities of texts on Old Slavic. In that case we have a unique opportunity to investigate this unusual Russian. Thus we do not get in a situation which has developed in connection with studying so called “Book of Veles” when only one researcher (which itself did not consider quite the expert), namely J.P .Miroljubov, had an opportunity to read lines of the original. Now figures ancient “Greeks” are estimated by thousand, and their images we can to find in any large library of the world. Therefore each researcher may work irrespective of another and give his variants of reading that creates very attractive prospects.

        Further, the read texts have shown, that secret texts on the Greek vessels were created Russian and for Russian, that they were elements of ancient Russian culture. It sounds very unusually and impudently. But it is a trivial conclusion from the read texts. It is possible to tell stronger: so-called “Old Greek” culture is simply a component of ancient Russian culture. In such form the given statement looks than another frequently repeated jokes, that Russiais the native land of elephants, or that it is seven kilometers up to heavens, and only through a wood. Nevertheless, from the reading the texts becomes clearly, that Greece is part of Russia, namely Zhivina Rus and thus Russia is not pure place name, but Russia of Slavs, and Crete is not simply Crete, but Crete Russia. And in Aegeida such Slavs as Tesey live. But Russia is not at all everywhere; so once Russia was on Caucasus, but during Jason expedition of it has replaced its name to Sclavenida. As if to Hellada it was Greek-Slavic state.

        From texts is obvious that ancient Greek gods are simply local kind of common Slavic gods, and just Slavic cryptography on “Old Greek” vessels it explains. On CreteZeus was considered the god of Slavs, the Aphrodite carried a belt from Lelya, Artemida speaks about itself: I AM LADA, Heracles counts itself Zeus’ Hercules. And Tesey approves that he is a Slav from Aegeida. So experts in Slavic and comparative mythology are extremely interested in reading similar texts. Again it turns out, that the Slavic mythology is more senior and is more authoritative than that of ancient Greeks.

        Similar researches are interesting and to critics, experts on Greek painting as they allow more precisely attribute images. So, plot Aid and Persephone at perusal of texts have come to light Aid and hetaera Rus, instead of Jason and Athena after perusal it was necessary to speak about Jason and Slavine. It is natural, that many graphic plots simply do not find direct reflection in the ancient Greek literature owing to withdrawal from it a mention of the Slavic cultural superiority. It reminds me present cleaning the Ukrainian historiography from a mention in it so-called “Moscals” (Russians as citizens of Moscovia); so prince Svjatoslav or Igor appear not governors of capital of Russia in Kiev, but as Ukrainian princes (but in those times the name Ukraine was not. The state had name “Russia”)! Moreover, an investigator, namely J.A .Shilov has composed mythical priests “Ukrs” from whom has gone, ostensibly, Ukrainian people. Only it is necessary to think up any texts of the first Russian prince Rurik on Ukrainian language and then all belonging to Russian culture will be possible to eliminate from Ukrainian history. So for the Russians it is necessary to concede a significant piece of their past to Ukrainians, and the family tree to start from XII century instead of IX. To rewrite books is possible, but the vessels which have been dug out from the ground is to edit more difficultly; certainly, also it today is possible. The Greeks have so believed in their autochthonism on the Balkan region that they have lost any vigilance. The truth, Greeks were made free and independent from Turkish domination in XIX century by all the same Russians and it in Greece for the present is remembered, but on 2, 5 thousand years at them memories do not suffice. And ancient Greece is a special country for all Europe; the west considers, what exactly Greeks have thought up both a democracy, and a civilization. And if behind all it in those times there was a Russia the big discomfiture leaves. It turns out, that all western civilization was created by Russians.

        Therefore, as I believe, research of all case of ancient Greek inscriptions (that will demand the monograph, and not one) will open many nice pages of our antique history, and will show, that Russia existed not only in times 0f IX-XII centuries, but also much earlier, up to the borders of a written history of Europe. Certainly, it existed and before it, but that is already another conversation.

        I think my mission executed: I have found out this huge file for the present not read documents and have shown, as they can be read, and what about the information they contain. Hardly from an epigraphist is it possible to demand the greater.
        Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
        - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

        Comment

        • Sarafot
          Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 616

          #19
          More info here:
          Say: Macedonia I am a Macedonian. My country's name is "Republic of Macedonia". It is a basic human right to choose a name for yourself and to express your nationality. Please respect that and call me by my name. Say: Macedonia!
          Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
          - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

          Comment

          • Pelister
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2742

            #20
            Here is a "Thraco-Dacian" word:

            Dna > bottoms, Dno>bottom Adnoa >on the Bottom, someone who lives on the bottom
            Donau Thracian - Dacian Toponym



            I put this here to show how terms used to describe people and places in the balkans and beyond may change, and interchange, and how it is possible that one race of people and even one langauge can go by different names.
            Last edited by Pelister; 12-23-2008, 07:27 PM. Reason: Add text

            Comment

            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #21
              "On a drawing was written the name of the Ancient Greek state: “Grako-Sclavinova Derzhava”, i.e. “Greek-Sclavin State”. It means that so called “Ancient Hellada” was not pure Hellenes State, but mixed, composing of great bulk of Slavs (Graks and Sclavines). From these drawings Russian texts we can obtain additional information about the Greek mythology"

              I'd like to see these drawings.

              Comment

              • Delodephius
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 736

                #22
                I have like 200 of those. Trust me, Chudinov is a moron and I pray for his quick death for the damage he has caused to science.
                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                  I have like 200 of those. Trust me, Chudinov is a moron and I pray for his quick death for the damage he has caused to science.
                  I have heard your sentiments about Chudinov before Slovak, he is the Russian guy that used the same methodology as the 2 Macedonians are at the moment to decipher the Rosetta, is that correct? Could you show us in brief why his methods are flawed, I don't recall the exact arguments from the past, but I would like to re-visit them.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Delodephius
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 736

                    #24
                    Well in short, he would take a piece of pottery and interpret the drawings on it as letters, or scratches on wood, or shades in a photograph of an object, rust erosion on metal objects, etc. Basically, he would find inscriptions and texts where there aren't any. All of the text he "deciphered" are pretty much the same and all read in an "Ancient Russian" language.
                    Chudinov believes that the proto-language of humanity was "Ancient Russian".
                    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                      Well in short, he would take a piece of pottery and interpret the drawings on it as letters, or scratches on wood, or shades in a photograph of an object, rust erosion on metal objects, etc. Basically, he would find inscriptions and texts where there aren't any. All of the text he "deciphered" are pretty much the same and all read in an "Ancient Russian" language.
                      Chudinov believes that the proto-language of humanity was "Ancient Russian".

                      His nationalism isn't the point. Its a thin viel and irrelevent.

                      The "grafitti" of the ancient world to the untrained eye looks like etchings and scratches - from the strange writing of the ancient Macedonians to the "runes" of the Nordic people - just etchings and scratches, but so much more than that too.

                      The crux of what he has found should be taken seriously.

                      Comment

                      • Delodephius
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 736

                        #26
                        If they were just scratches to an untrained eye I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they are scratches (if only) even to a professional.

                        I'm just sick of how people accept something out of argument from authority (which fits them) and know jack shit about it.
                        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #27
                          Going back to the relations between the various Balkan tribes, there was an Illyrian tribe called the Dassaretae, that lived within the vicinity of Lake Ohrid. The Illyrian word for 'lake' is Oseriates, very close to OCS Ozero and Macedonian Ezero.


                          Oseriates (Lake, Illyrian)
                          Ozero (Lake, Slavonic)
                          Ezeritai (Slavic tribe, Peloponnese)

                          Dassaretae (Tribe living close to lake, Illyrian)
                          Do ezero (Next to lake, Macedonian)


                          These hydronyms and subsequent tribal name bear a striking similarity to the name of a Slavic-speaking tribe from the Peloponnese, that went by the name of Ezeritai. Are there possible links between these tribes? Could the Ezeritai in the Peloponnese be descended from tribes around Lake Ohrid?
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Sarafot
                            Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 616

                            #28
                            Bravo be So Macedon,you allways know wath to post.This thing proves what was saied before,Slavs indeed are Ilirians,and why should Azbuka be based on Greek alphabeth?See that relation was found by Tentov and Boševski,Glagolica was based on praslavic azbuka,or other name old Macedonian.Any way it was posted on Makedonika that all Slavic languages are part of Macedonian language,was it Webster dictionary or Lingui de Europa?
                            Probebly we could found many more things about that?
                            Last edited by Sarafot; 12-28-2008, 04:43 AM.
                            Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
                            - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #29
                              To tell you the truth Sarafot, I am not entirely familiar (or convinced as a result) with the work of Tentov and Bosevski, we may need to open a thread and discuss that topic separately.

                              With regard to another Illyrian word, check the following Montenegrin city:


                              John Wilkes, who wrote 'The Illyrians', indicates a possible etymology for the placename Ulcinj/Ulqin (formerly Olcinium/Olkinium) as 'wolf', connecting it to the Albanian word 'ukas' (or ujk) which also means the same.

                              Wolf - English
                              Lykos - Greek
                              Ujk - Albanian
                              Olk(inium) - Illyrian
                              Volk - Macedonian


                              It is interesting to note that the Slavic variant seems to have had a sound change at some point from Olkin to Ultsin. If the word does indeed mean 'wolf', then in Slavic it presents itself in a plural form, for Volk is singular and Voltsi is plural, therefore Ultsi(n) would mean 'wolves'.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Pelister
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2742

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                To tell you the truth Sarafot, I am entirely familiar (or convinced as a result) with the work of Tentov and Bosevski, we may need to open a thread and discuss that topic separately.

                                With regard to another Illyrian word, check the following Montenegrin city:


                                John Wilkes, who wrote 'The Illyrians', indicates a possible etymology for the placename Ulcinj/Ulqin (formerly Olcinium/Olkinium) as 'wolf', connecting it to the Albanian word 'ukas' (or ujk) which also means the same.

                                Wolf - English
                                Lykos - Greek
                                Ujk - Albanian
                                Olk(inium) - Illyrian
                                Volk - Macedonian


                                It is interesting to note that the Slavic variant seems to have had a sound change at some point from Olkin to Ultsin. If the word does indeed mean 'wolf', then in Slavic it presents itself in a plural form, for Volk is singular and Voltsi is plural, therefore Ultsi(n) would mean 'wolves'.
                                Truly remarkable SoM. You've done it again.

                                I love the comparative analysis - it makes for a very strong and convincing arguement.

                                What's the "inium" ?

                                Comment

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