Albanians in Greece

[Daskalot]

Surely your joking Daskale. Look around you. Half the Avatars here are of ppl that are dead 2000 + yrs ago not to mention symbols of antiquity. Heck, look at your own, and Im the one with the fixation ?

Im just enlightning our friend Pyrros who is spreading propaganda against Greeks and Arvanties. I would love for him to try to sell this crap to Arvanites.

I am using our chosen flag as my avatar, it is from 1992, is that ancient to you?
Why do you call Epirot by the name Pyrros?

[Voltron]

I am using our chosen flag as my avatar, it is from 1992, is that ancient to you?
Why do you call Epirot by the name Pyrros?

His Avatar.

@Epirot.

Ive been through this a million times but still not enough I guess. I will answer your points you mentioned when I have some spare time.

Regarding the antiquity comments, Il leave that for another thread.

[Epirot]

He was a Turko-Alvano ^ They would sell their own mothers to get ahead in the Ottoman Empire.

You got no clue who really was Ali Pasha of Janina. Because if you knew only some basic things about him, you wouldn't gibberish in this way.

You owe your independence also to his struggles against Ottoman central authorities. When Sultan engaged a lot of his armies against Ali Pasha insurgency, Orthodox Arvanites saw a great opportunity to start their uprising. If Sultan's army marched against the weak revolts of Arvanites at the first stage of war, the flow of events would be fairly different. So show some respect to historical figures!

I suggest to you to read the following summary written by John Shea:

The Greek independence movement. just as interesting as the ethnic diversity of Greece is the idea that the new peoples in the southern Balkan peninsula learned Greek, became good Roman citizens, and identified a community of interest with other peoples living in their land. Writing nearly one hundred and fifty years ago, just a few years after the success of the Greek revolution, George Finlay noted that the local energies and local patriotism of all the Christian municipalities in the Ottoman empire were able to readily unite in opposition to "Othoman oppressions" whenever some kind of communication or administrative structure to centralize their efforts could be created. In these local institutions, Finlay suggested, a foundation was laid for a union of all the Christian Orthodox races in European Turkey. This comment was made, of course, a generation before Bulgaria achieved its autonomy from the Turks, and long before a Macedonian state became possible. Greece was then still a very small state at the bottom of the Balkan peninsula. Finlay recognized " the vigorous Albanians of Hydra, the warlike Albanians of Suli, the persevering Bulgarians of Macedonia, and the laborious Vallachians on the banks of the Aspropotamos" who embarked together on a struggle for Greek independence, "as heartily as the posterity of the ancient inhabitants of the soil of Hellas. Nicholas Hammond tells us that in the Greek War of Independence the Albanians, above all, drove the Turks out.

The heroism and determination of the Greek revolutionaries alone probably would not have been enough to overcome the Turks and their allies. The armed intervention of the European powers made a difference at crucial times. With the beginning of the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Turkish sultan gave Mohammed Ali (an Albanian general of the Turkish forces in Egypt who had seized power in 1808) the provincial governorships of Crete and the Peloponnese with a commission to exterminate the Greek rebels. The Greek fleet kept them out till 1825, when the fleet mutinied over a lack of pay. A battle at Missolonghi, where Greek patriots were being besieged by the Turks, was swayed in Turkish favor by the arrival of the Egyptians. The heroic defense and the appearance of an Egyptian threat moved the governments of Europe to support the Greek cause. In 1827 squadrons of British, French and Russian navies destroyed the Turkish and Egyptian fleets at Navarin, and Greek independence was made certain.

According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the nineteenth-century "Greeks," who had so recently won their independence from the Turks, not only did not call themselves Hellenes (they learned this label later from the intellectual nationalists); they did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Albanian, Slavonic, or Vlach dialects." He held that their culture was similarly remote from the culture of the ancient Greeks. Their "customs and habits might seem to bear as much if not more relation to those of the other peoples of the Balkans and indeed of Anatolian as they did to what were fondly imagined to be those of Pericline Athens."

[Voltron]

You got no clue who really was Ali Pasha of Janina. Because if you knew only some basic things about him, you wouldn't gibberish in this way.

You owe your independence also to his struggles against Ottoman central authorities. When Sultan engaged a lot of his armies against Ali Pasha insurgency, Orthodox Arvanites saw a great opportunity to start their uprising. If Sultan's army marched against the weak revolts of Arvanites at the first stage of war, the flow of events would be fairly different. So show some respect to historical figures!

I suggest to you to read the following summary written by John Shea:

Epirot, I have seen John Shea before. Bulgarians of Macedonia, I see you looking to expand you fan base here. What is it with underlining pages of books these days. Dont you realize for every page you post from a book someone else can go and find another that completely says a different thing ?

Ok, back on topic. I had never denied nor does any Greek I know discount the role in which Arvanites have played in our war of independence. This is a non-issue. Same can be said about Vlachs.

What my problem is, is this flawed attempt to link Arvantes to their Muslim Brothers as some kind of united Albanian ethnos which quite frankly did not exist at the time. This form of Albaniasm is a recent event, something cultivated in Hoxha's time of communism. Arvanties saw something in Greeks that led them to die in the battle field. If they felt so out of place, I hardly think anyone would put themself in that postion. Common sense ppl. Thats all it takes.

[Onur]

Epirot, don't bite his bait, he is just trying to lure you.

We all know that it was the so-called Greeks who always gave their sisters on a plate to the Ottoman rulers for gaining a bit more authority over the Balkans, from their patriarchy to a simple peasant in Morea.

[Epirot]

What my problem is, is this flawed attempt to link Arvantes to their Muslim Brothers as some kind of united Albanian ethnos which quite frankly did not exist at the time. This form of Albaniasm is a recent event, something cultivated in Hoxha's time of communism. Arvanties saw something in Greeks that led them to die in the battle field. If they felt so out of place, I hardly think anyone would put themself in that postion. Common sense ppl. Thats all it takes.

Now you straight the core of thread. I don't see any problem on linking Arvanites with their Muslim brothers, when they speak the same language, have the same origin, customs, traditions, characters, etc. It's fairly improper to draw a line of division between Muslim Albanians and Orthodox ones. I have to recollect once again some old sources providing the contrary of your claim. Albanians had their ethnic identity based on common historical origin, language, customs, territory, etc. It's true that Arvanites had had not the same level of identity consciousness as that of Albanians, but this is result of other factors (they had no schools in their own language, or were mixed more or less with other ethnic groups, etc). What has to do Enver Hoxha with that matter? Enver Hoxha did not introduce ethnic consciousness among Albanians, because this already exist much early than that of Greeks. Let turn back to the Arvanite ethnic consciousness. David Anthony has said: "Oppositional politics crystallize who we are not , even if we are uncertain who we are, and therefore play a large role in the definition of ethnic identities". I would apply this premise to Arvanites. Presumably, Arvanites were somehow uncertain who they were (for example their true origin), but definitively they were sure what they were not (they knew they were distinct from Slavs, Vlachs, Greek-speakers of all sorts, Turks, etc. This is what Anthony call as 'oppositional politics'. With the emerging of Greek state, Arvanites were subject of assimilation which was exercised by ecclesiastical authorities, the writing or even speaking of Albanian was forbidden in public life, etc.

Epirot, I have seen John Shea before. Bulgarians of Macedonia, I see you looking to expand you fan base here. What is it with underlining pages of books these days. Dont you realize for every page you post from a book someone else can go and find another that completely says a different thing ?

Well mate! I am still waiting for someone else to find another page that completely says a different thing. But until now, no Greek member here has find another page to contradict my points.

Ok, back on topic. I had never denied nor does any Greek I know discount the role in which Arvanites have played in our war of independence. This is a non-issue. Same can be said about Vlachs.

I believe you but this cannot be said for your folk in Greece. All of Greeks I've met were not aware of Albanian background of revolutionary figures. This also can be seen on Wiki's pages in chapters about Marko Boçari, Xhavella or Kundurioti, for instance. Nowhere is mentioned their Albanian origin. Why is that?

[Voltron]

Well mate! I am still waiting for someone else to find another page that completely says a different thing. But until now, no Greek member here has find another page to contradict my points.

And I still havnt figured out what exactly you want to point out. That Arvanties are in fact of Albanian origin ? And ? Since when the 15th century when the Byzantines brought them over to Greece ?

I believe you but this cannot be said for your folk in Greece. All of Greeks I've met were not aware of Albanian background of revolutionary figures. This also can be seen on Wiki's pages in chapters about Marko Boçari, Xhavella or Kundurioti, for instance. Nowhere is mentioned their Albanian origin. Why is that?

What is the purpose of trying to segregate the ppl you mention above ? What did they do for Albania ? Who cares ?
They self identify Arvanties/Greeks. Sorry.

Do you see Mehmet the conqueror listed as a Greek ? Or how about Sinan ? Ataturk ? I can go on and on. Back then it was more simpler. Either your with us or against us. We called those Greeks I mentioned above Turks. Your bretheren did the same. Arvanties and Greeks seem to be in agreement except a small circle of ppl like yourself that try to resurect the Albanian in them. Good luck with that.

[Ottoman]

Mimar Sinan was ethnic Greek but he is regarded by everyone as an Ottoman.

Greek war heroes are regrarded Greek and not Albanian despite being ethnic Albanian.

Its the same with Ali Pasha, Ali Pasha was Ottoman, end of story.

[Onur]

Admins, for how long you gonna permit this charade to go on?

Voltron talks about Sinan (5:14pm) and only two min. after that, Ottoman already writes a message about Sinan too and this same shit is happening for weeks. They are either same person or roommates or chatting over some program and posting their messages back to back. They are just polluting all over the place, don't you see?

[Voltron]

Your absolutly pathetic. Whats a matter Onur ? Someone stealing your limelight in this forum ?

[Epirot]

Arvanties and Greeks seem to be in agreement except a small circle of ppl like yourself that try to resurect the Albanian in them. Good luck with that.

In agreement for what? How can I resurrect the Albanian in them when they actually are Albanian in every aspect? The true is the contrary: it is the Greek policy who wants to resurrect the Greek in them and harming with anti-Albanian pathetic rhetoric. But not all Arvanites acquired your nationalistic agenda: some Arvanite circles lead by the prominent intellectual, Aristidh Kola tried to rise awareness among them, by pointing out their Albanian roots and culture. It's quite ludicrous how many nationalist Greeks labeled disdainfully him as an agent who was paid by the Albanian Secret services!!!!

They self identify Arvanties/Greeks. Sorry.

...and what prove this? That they were Greeks by ethnicity!? Take a brief look upon your first constitution what was meant to be Greek at that time:






I would like to see this work now 200 years later ...pass it out to the new immigrants from Africa ,Pakistan Egypt ....they speak greek fluently...

I do not deny that Arvanites uphold Hellenic ideas but this doesn't change their national characteristics. They remained entirely different from the rest of Greece's population.




I have to quote again John Shea's summary:

Nineteenth-century European attitudes toward Greece. In 1821, after the Greek War of Independence broke out, western Europe was swept by Philhellenism." The Germans were the nationality most quickly and deeply involved. Over 300 Germans went to fight in Greece, but throughout Europe tens of thousands of students and academics were involved in support movements. Many Britons, French, and Italians went to Greece to fight, and there was a strong support movement in the U.S. Though only sixteen North Americans reached Greece, the widespread philhellenic feelings arising from the war provided a big boost for the "Hellenic"- Greek letter -fraternities in the US. Shelley wrote:

"We are all Greeks. Our laws, our literature, our religion, our arts all have their roots in Greece. But for Greece ... we might still have been savages and idolaters ... The human form and the human mind attained to a perfection in Greece which has impressed its images on those faultless productions whose very fragments are the despair of modern art, and has propagated impulses which can never cease, through a thousand channels of manifest or imperceptible operation, to enable and delight mankind until the extinction of the race".

Throughout western Europe, the Greek War of Independence was seen as a struggle between European youthful vigor and Asiatic and African decadence, corruption and cruelty.

The Greek fight for independence had attracted European sympathy because of European distrust of the Moslem Turks, sympathy with the Christian Greeks, a great respect for classical Greek scholarship, and views developing in Europe that the ancient Greeks were "northern Europeans" and the originators of philosophy and science. Despite this favorable view of the ancients, closer inspection of modern Greeks had left many western Europeans disappointed with their heroic, but superstitious, Christian and dirty, "descendants," whom some regarded as "Byzantinized Slavs.” These views were not isolated. Mark Twain, for instance, "had thought modern Greeks a libel on the ancients."" The English poet Byron was shocked when he came to Greece expecting to find the tall, blond, blue-eyed heroes of antiquity.

Cheetham10 says that the new Greeks were regarded with vague suspicion in academic circles, since their association with ancient Greece was not considered to be genuine. They were, in Robert Byron’s words, "discounted as the unmoral refuse of medieval Slav migrations, sullying the land of their birth with the fury of their politics and the malformation of their small brown bodies." Cheetham says that the classical master at his school commiserated with him on the prospect of his having to consort on his holidays with what he called "those nasty little Slavs."

It may be that European racist contempt for the Greek revolutionaries of the nineteenth century goes some way toward explaining the persisting determination of the Greeks to create an alternative racial model for themselves. If we juxtapose the nineteenth-century view of the ancient Greeks as Aryans with attitudes towards the ethnic characteristics of the Greek revolutionaries, we can see the enormous burden that the Greeks carried in their dealings with Europe. While it has been a characteristic of new nation-states during the last century and a half to manufacture a suitable cultural, linguistic and ethnic pedigree for themselves, the Greeks have carried this process through to an extent that is unparalleled in Europe. Even today, Greece clings to a European connection via its rather tumultuous relationship with the European community. It is ironic that a part of the continuing European mistrust of the Greeks, as is evident from influential editorial comments such as those cited above, has developed because of the very myths that the Greeks propagate in order to purify their image. Greek myth-making today can be seen as inspired by the wider European racism of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, and even a continuation of that racism. The United States State Department and international human rights organizations have claimed that Greek suppression of ethnic minorities has come out of such policies. These claims will be elaborated in a later chapter.

Let us analyse again Shelley's statement: "We are all Greeks. Our laws, our literature, our religion, our arts all have their roots in Greece".

Germans, Britons, French, Italians identified themselves with the Hellenic cause and sentiments.It was fashionable at that time... Does this make them Greeks by ethnicity? Arvanites in the first stage of the war were interested to free themselves from Ottoman yoke. In that time, due to the historical circumstances, Orthodoxy was considered as an effective tool to facilitate their freedom struggle. That's why they arouse some Orthodox attitudes. But when Phil-Hellenic Europe put forward the slogans for a free Greece (a term which they recognized for the first time in their life) they turned into 'Greeks' in order to get some more support from the outside. In short, this how Arvanites acquired 'Hellenism'. I emphasize again: this doesn't mean that they were Greeks or something like that. Almost nobody knew anything what was meant 'Greece' or 'Greek'. I do not know if you are acquainted with a renowned ballad sung by Albanians of Morea, who migrated in the Calabrian soil. I shall quote some verse of it:

“Oh, my beautiful Morea,
Left and saw you nevermore,
Left behind my lady mother,
Left behind my loving brother,
Left behind my lordly father,
All under your soil they’re resting.
Oh, my beautiful Morea,
Left and saw you nevermore.”

If they identified themselves as Greeks, then they would call their ancestral homeland as Greece. But they did not because Greece was still unknown for most of them. There are some versions of this song which assert that they used interchangeably Morea with Albania. In one of them it was said: "Oj More' oj Arbëri' (that means: o Morea, o Albania). Have you ever think about that, Voltron? Or are you still thinking that Enver Hoxha introduced some Albanian nationalism on them?

Here what I found on Illyria forums:



This strengthen even more the memorable words of Fallmerayer:

"If one calls this country a new Albania, one gives it its real name. Those provinces of the Greek Kingdom are as loosely related to Hellenism as the Scottish Highlands are to the Afghan regions of Kandahar and Kabul"

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

In agreement for what? How can I resurrect the Albanian in them when they actually are Albanian in every aspect? The true is the contrary: it is the Greek policy who wants to resurrect the Greek in them and harming with anti-Albanian pathetic rhetoric. But not all Arvanites acquired your nationalistic agenda: some Arvanite circles lead by the prominent intellectual, Aristidh Kola tried to rise awareness among them, by pointing out their Albanian roots and culture. It's quite ludicrous how many nationalist Greeks labeled disdainfully him as an agent who was paid by the Albanian Secret services!!!!

They were in agreement as to how they viewed Ottoman cohorts and henchmen that sold their religion and circumsized themselves en masse to pls the Turks. The Turk-Alvanoi were opportunists and had no scruples. We had our share as well and both Arvanites and Greeks viewed the traitors as Turks. Also, how are they Albanian ? In what way ? If you want to get technical about being Albanian then you would have to prove to me that Tosks (Arvanites) are in fact not Albaniansed Greeks. Care to shed light on why the Ghegs are different "racially" speaking ? How do you reconcile the physical characteristics of Tosks vs Ghegs. Lets start from square one.

...and what prove this? That they were Greeks by ethnicity!? Take a brief look upon your first constitution what was meant to be Greek at that time:

It clearly says "citizen" and even if you use your angle of viewing it you still come up short. You say we are oppressors, yet in the constitution you posted it considers non-Greeks equal to Greeks in Greece

I do not deny that Arvanites uphold Hellenic ideas but this doesn't change their national characteristics. They remained entirely different from the rest of Greece's population.

No they did not remain different. They assimilated willingly and have a uniqeness that is acknowledged and respected. The Arvanites came back home to their original roots (Hellenic). Again, the easiest way is to come here and see for yourself.

What nick did you have in Illyria forums ?

[Epirot]

In what way ? If you want to get technical about being Albanian then you would have to prove to me that Tosks (Arvanites) are in fact not Albaniansed Greeks. Care to shed light on why the Ghegs are different "racially" speaking ? How do you reconcile the physical characteristics of Tosks vs Ghegs. Lets start from square one.

This is the first time I heard that directly from a Greek. If you want to maintain some credibility, then you have to back up your claim that Tosks are in fact Albaniased Greeks? What is the "racially" difference between Ghegs and Tosks? I am all ears...

It clearly says "citizen" and even if you use your angle of viewing it you still come up short. You say we are oppressors, yet in the constitution you posted it considers non-Greeks equal to Greeks in Greece

Yes it's true that the first constitution was very liberal comparing with the current one, who doesn't even recognize the existence of other ethnic minorities. But we are speaking for two different historical periods, are not we?

The Arvanites came back home to their original roots (Hellenic). Again, the easiest way is to come here and see for yourself.

That's weird, anyway! This has been carried by Greek politics who tried to legitimize the assimilation by inventing the story that the Hellenization is nothing else but turning-back into the supposed original roots (in the case of Arvanites)!!!! But you owe to all the members here to find some reliable sources that support this strange claim. I am very interested to know how these 'Hellenes' became Albanians...at least, how come this?

No they did not remain different. They assimilated willingly and have a uniqeness that is acknowledged and respected.

Don't downgrade yourself, Voltron! It's not a matter their uniqueness that is acknowledged by every impartial observer. The matter is that this uniqueness is not respected by your side...there is no school where they can learn freely their native language. In that way you respect their uniqueness? By stealing all of their cultural features (fustanella, dances, songs,etc) and selling cheap in market as Greek values?

What nick did you have in Illyria forums ?

To be honest, I've not yet an account on Illyria forums, but I often visit the discussion raised there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your absolutly pathetic. Whats a matter Onur ? Someone stealing your limelight in this forum ?

Voltron, I don't think Onur is pathetic, but I do think it is pathetic for two members to play some sort of stupid tag-team on our forum. Nothing that either yourself or Ottoman (who is starting to sound like a Greek more and more each day) have said works towards eliminating the doubt that was caused not long ago.

[Onur]

SOM, imho, no need further discussion about this. They are responding each others messages in 2-3 min. between them for more than a month. To be able to do that, one needs constantly click refresh on the browser and write a response quickly!!!

Dont you see, Voltron speaks about Mimar Sinan and Ottoman writes a response about Sinan only two min. laters. I have no doubt at all. He is just toying with us and i bet he is giggling while reading this.