Albanians in Greece

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Onur, are you sufficiently confident that this Ottoman character isn't a Turk? I really can't be bothered with such garbage, in my opinion, something is definetly odd, admins. will discuss and come back with a decision on this today.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • SirGeorge8600
      Member
      • Jun 2011
      • 117

      It's no doubt in my mind that Greeks and Albanians might share genes...I met an albanian girl at a concert in chicago who was almost a clone of a Greek cousin of mine lol.

      But the albanian ethnic minority does exist in Greece, and every Greek you ask will concur and in their large amounts "Ei Alvani" and if they don't then they're either mentally-ill or a politician on his high horse too busy with propaganda.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        Originally posted by SirGeorge8600 View Post
        But the albanian ethnic minority does exist in Greece, and every Greek you ask will concur and in their large amounts "Ei Alvani" and if they don't then they're either mentally-ill or a politician on his high horse too busy with propaganda.
        You're talking about the migrant workers, not the locals who have been there for centuries. How do Greeks generally react when they see other fellow citizens speaking Arvanite to each other?
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          The greeks thought they can do anything & getaway with it .Well it's all catching up to them & it's biting back on the arse.It's so bad that there is hardly anyone left that you could really call greek.There is a a saying that you can run but not hide.
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Epirot
            Member
            • Mar 2010
            • 399

            Kleftes and Armatoli - The fierce Albanian warriors

            We are already accustomed with weird claims of our southern neighbors who attempt by every possible mean to greacize every non-Greek trace in their country. Last but not least, our deluded friend "Agamoi" put forward the newest sensation: Klephtes were nothing but Greeks. Let see his forgery:

            No,you liar,you apparently threw that passage of Koumas in order to present your fraudulent claim that he considered all Klephtes as Albanians (as if that has something to do with the topic) which was certainly not the case!Now that I revealed the truth and exposed your fraudulent attempt,you bark like the chicken thiev who is caught red- handed.
            There is a plethora of impartial accounts written by relevant historians, travelers and ethnographers about the situation in the Ottoman period of 'Greece'. Most of them saw that Greece (in opposite with what they did believe) was inhabited chiefly by Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs...not to mention other minorities like Venetians, Franks, Jews, Gypsies, etc. According to their observances, Albanians made up the majority in several locations all over Greece: Attica, Eubea, Livadia, Corinth and a large portion of Morea are said to have been entirely Albanian. Therefore, Albanians were actively engaged in most of anti-Ottoman revolts: a number of them were organized into permanent bands who practiced a guerilla warfare, if we use a modern military expression. These were called 'Kleftes' and Armatoli - their existence was even allowed by Turkish authorities...Now let center on the question we are concerning about. Were Kleftes and Armatoli of Greek descent?
            The answer is NO. Here I'm going to reveal a couple of interesting authentic accounts in regards with the ethnicity of Kleftes and Armatoli:

            We shall pass over the interesting account of Epirus, which forms the Introduction, and proceed to the Life of Ali Pacha. He was supposed to be born about the year 1750. Tepeliui, about 20 leagues North of Janina, was the place of his nativity. His ancestors, it appears, embraced the lucrative profession of Kleftes, a species of robbers very common in the wild mountains of Albania.

            The Gentleman's magazine, Volume 92, Part 2, p. 420
            http://books.google.com/books?id=s93...leftes&f=false
            Some Christian tribes, especially the Roman Catholics of the north of Albania, are occasionally found in that situation : but, in general, the Christian Albanian soldiers have either remained at home for"the defence of their native districts, or have entered into the service of the Greek governors of the Ultra-Danubian provinces, or have joined the bands of robbers which infest various parts of European Turkey, or have been united to the Armatoli and Kleftes of Greece.

            The Oriental herald and journal of general literature, Volume 9, p. 459
            http://books.google.com/books?id=cZQ...anians&f=false
            The klepthes (the reputable robbers, as they esteemed themselves), of the mountains of Zante, and of the adjoining islands before enumerated, identified themselves with those of Albania, and are said, for many years, during the period of Venetian rule, to have taken common part with them.

            Notes and observations on the Ionian islands and Malta: with some ..., Volume 2 By John Davy, p. 127

            Sketches of modern Greece, by a young English volunteer in the ..., Volume 1, p. 406


            The Nations of Russia and Turkey and Their Destiny By Ivan Gavrilovich Golovin, p. 137

            Some modern analyses:


            The Greek struggle for independence, 1821-1833 By Douglas Dakin, p. 72


            Blood and oranges: European markets and immigrant labor in rural Greece By Christopher M. Lawrence, p. 13

            "The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era to the Twentieth Century and Beyond
            By Andre Gerolymatos, André Gerolymatos"

            ...

            1. ALBANIANS AS LEGENDARY FIGHTERS

            Although by the early 19th century the guerrilla warfare of klephts was common throughout the Balkans, it had its roots in Albania. The ALBANIANS had a reputation as military innovators, a distinction associated particularly with the ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN SULIOT TRIBES OF EPIRUS.


            In the 18th C, as the military efficiency of the janissaries corps continued to decline, the ottoman authorities began to rely on Albanian mercenaries with increasing frequency.
            For the most part it was their legendary military prowess, as well as their willingness to serve in the foreign armies, that established Albanians as the hardiest and toughest recruits for the Ottoman forces.

            All Albanians in 19 C carried arms. usually they were equipped with a musket, pistols, and a sword. This made it easy for those who were not in league with the bandits to defend their homes and property against them. For years, their pattern of bandit activity remained relatively unchanged. In the early summer, armed groups of as few as two or as many as a couple of hundred would assemble under the leadership of a single chief. In the winter most of the bandits would disperse and take refuge in their respective villages. During their operating season, some would find shelter in caves, but many simply lived outdoors with only their capes for cover. (Pages 115-116)

            The legend and bravery and success of the Albanian bandits created a model for the other Balkan brigands. A bandit's value was based on his skill with weapons and the degree of courage he displayed. Any kind of central authority was treated with disdain, and rugged individualism was celebrated. But what distinguished this Albanian bandit was his willingness to CARRY or DISPLAY A WEAPON!!.....Not surprisingly, the legend of the Albanian mountain warrior often proved irresistible to young men and nationalist historians alike. In this way, the bandit was transformed into a romantic desperado in search of freedom (page 118).


            2. ALBANIANS, KLEPHTS, KILTS and THE GREEK REVOLUTION

            Eventually their military reputation rose to such heights that it invited emulation of method, and soon, as mentioned earlier, the ALBANIANS even set the fashion for Balkan warriors with their KILTS. Eventually many Ottoman notables also adopted the ALBANIAN LOOK as did the GREEK KLEPHTS AND THE ARMATOLI.

            The popularity of the costume was enhanced during the Greek war of liberation, since those who wore it could claim to fight for the Greek cause and draw pay from the various Greek governments. Today this Albanian fashion statement of the 18th c and 19th c is instantly recognized as the GREEK NATIONAL COSTUME and it’s proudly worn by the men guarding the tomb of the Unknown Soldier in front of the Greek Parliament.


            3. ALBANIAN’S MILITARY LEGACY AND GEORGE KASTRIOTI

            In the 19th C Albanian customs and traditions made inconsiderable inroads into the society of the Balkan mountain villagers. Although Albania is the smallest country in the Balkans, it has a powerful military legacy. As a region it lacks natural resources, and this strong absence of a strong material infrastructure is perhaps one reason why Albanians cannot look back to an earlier period of glory and greatness. Their homeland has been too poor and restricted to enable them to expand and to found an empire comparable with those of the Byzantines, Serbian and Bulgarian emperors. During the ottoman invasions of the 15th c, however the Albanians managed to unite for a brief period. Led by the legendary GEORGE KASTRIOTIS they defied all the armies of the sultan. Form 1444 to 1468, Kastriotis fought 24 campaigns against the Turks and kept them away from Albania much to the delight of Christian Europe (pag113).


            4. ALBANIAN MIGRATION TO ITALY AND WHY MANY ALBANIANS CONVERTED TO ISLAM

            The absence of cultural chauvinism and adaptability were the keys to the survival of the Albanians as a distinct people both during and after the ottoman period. In fact, even before the ottoman invasions the catholic and eastern orthodox churches had waged a relentless struggle for the hearts, minds and souls of the Albanian tribes. When the ottoman armies first subdued the region, they discovered a people divided between the Orthodox Church I the south and Catholic Church in the north. The ottomans exploited these differences and the Albanians called on their instincts of survival to adjust to the new economic and political realities. The Albanian feudal landlords were the first to embrace Islam an act that allowed them to keep their estates and privileges. In 1468, the Ottomans implemented large scale islamization, which triggered both a mass exodus of Catholic Albanians in South Italy and countless conversions to Orthodoxy. Not for the first time had the Sultan and the Orthodox Church found common ground.

            Economic factors and tax advantages of Muslim affiliation ultimately made many Albanians convert to Islam. Some groups remained eastern orthodox (in the south) and a few maintained Catholicism (in the north). Yet despite their different religions and the social upheaval, the Albanians preserve their identity as one people.

            The exodus of Albanians to Europe followed earlier similar migrations in reaction to Serbian pressure from the north. In some regions of Europe, distinct Albanian minorities survived well into the 20th c. For example, in 1901 there were more than 200.000 Albanians in Italy and many communities of them in the Greek mainland and the islands. The Albanians in Italy were more advanced culturally, and by the late 19th and early 20th c they were in a position to make a significant contribution to the development of modern Albanian nationalism. (Page 113-114)



            5. ALBANIAN IMMIGRATION INTO GREECE, ARVANITES AND GREEK REVOLUTION


            The ALBANIAN migration in the Greek regions in the 16th and 17th C was facilitated by a combination of geopolitical factors and natural phenomena such as plagues. ..Many Albanians sought refuge in the mountain communities of Greece, while others fled to coastal regions. The outbreaks of plagues and higher taxes imposed by local potentates accelerated the depopulation of the process, which left many parts of the Greek hinterland empty and desolate. The end result of these population upheavals was that "the Balkans had a floating population of soldiers, deserters, bandits - men who had lost land, home or kin as Ottoman ruled or retaliated. The Albanians moved into the abandoned spaces, either encouraged by the Ottoman authorities (who wanted to increase the muslim element) or of their own volition (because they were fleeing their own homes on account of their Orthodox faith.) Such was the case for the Albanians who settled in Boeotia, Attica, Argolis, and the island of Hydra in the 16th c.

            Soon the southern and eastern inland region of Greece had become a mish-mash of Hellenic, Slav; romance (romanian), turkish, and albanian- of a people of an ambivalent identity and with a floating consciousness'...

            Eventually those in Greece, at least the Albanians who remained Orthodox adopted a Greek identity. They did so partly they would then be allowed to be married with the indigenous Greeks and partly because integration brought with it a higher level of economic opportunity. The Albanians living in the Greek islands adjusted even more quickly, since then they were exposed to the influence of maritime travel and trade.

            As a result, many of them played a significant role in the Greek war of Liberation and achieved leadership positions with the post-revolutionary governments. Of course Albanians and Greeks also fought on behalf of the sultans. For example, the dragoman of the imperial fleet was a Greek, directing operations against his compatriots. he like the Greek Wallachian and Moldavian despots, sought wealth and power within the Ottoman system.

            6. ALI PASHA, SULI and SULIOTS as ALBANIAN ORTHODOX FIGHTERS

            Ali Pasha was the sum of contradictions: cruel and impetuous one moment and a benefactor to the Christians the next. The boasted ability of Ali was displayed in subduing the Albanians, cheating the Ottoman government and ruling the Greeks.

            ALI PASHA proceeded randomly in any direction provided by circumstance and chance for authority. His first goal was to reduce the CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS OF SULI a group that managed to achieve some measures of independence through a combination of geographic inaccessibility and Orthodox opposition to the Catholic West. The SULIOTS were a branch of THE SOUTHERN ALBANIAN TOSKS. and until the 17 C, their territory belonged to an Ottoman timariot (a landholding lord) based in Ioannina.


            When the Venetians gained possession of the Peloponnese thru the Treaty of Carlowitz in 1699, however anarchy took over in the rest of the Balkans. ORTHODOX ALBANIANS formed armed bands to defend themselves against brigands whose numbers and activities thrived as a result. Instead of forcing THE CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS to give up their arms, the pashas of Albania and Northern Greece found common cause in combating the Catholic menace that had become established in southern Greece.

            By the first quarter of the 18th c, the SULIOTS had been awarded control of a small Christian district in SOUTHERN ALBANIA.


            Remarkably they numbered no more than 100 families at the time. By the 19th c though their numbers had increased to no more then 450 families, they had the ability to field a military force of 1500 men. The real strength and advantage of SULI however lay in the formidable geography of the region. The clusters of villages and hamlets that constituted SULI were situated in SOUTHERN ALBANIA OPPOSITE the island of Corfu …The Suliot community was entrenched in a lateral valley covered by two rocky hills; the main approach was through a gorge called Kleisura. Nestled on top of the precipitous peaks, SULI was impervious to a frontal assault, protected by the deep ravine formed by the Acheron river and easily defended by highly skilled marksman who could hide themselves in the rocks and stones buildings of the SULIOT villages.

            For almost a century, the SULIOTS dominated the surrounding villages and offered protection to CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS who fell victim to the rapacious demands of the Ottoman authorities. The ethos of SULIOT was to fight and war was the only honourable occupation. Suliot women were also trained to use muskets, and on occasion they took part in fighting. Usually, they supported their men by carrying provisions and supplying them with ammunition during the course of the battle.
            The lifestyle, of course, left very few means of support, so if protection dues were not forthcoming, the Suliots exacted tribute by force form the nearby Christian villages. By the time Ali Pasha took over Ioannina, there were numerous complains coming from the Christian and Muslims over the frequency of plundering activities and the general lawlessness of the Suliots…The fact that the Suliots were Christians made it possible for Ali to disguise his motives as a defence of the Sultan.

            Ali was operating under the assumption that no one would offer support to Suliots, but soon he discovered that nearby communities, both Christian and Muslim, were more afraid of him than they were of Soloist. “When he attacked them, all their neighbours were alarmed, recent injuries were forgotten and new alliances formed. Mussulman beys and Venetian governors of Parga and Prevesa supplied them secretly with aid.” writes Finlay.

            This situation continued from 1792 and the final struggle between Ali and the Suliots unfolded in 1803. when Suliots surrendered their fortress in December 12, 1803. According to the version of the tale provided in Greek schools books, the Suliots retreated from the fortress only after capitulation, not by betraying their compatriots before the battle was lost.


            8. DANCE OF DEATH OF SULIOT ALBANIAN WOMEN

            On the road, Ali’s troops surrounded 6 men and 22 women. They held out for 2 days and nights, until there was no ammunition. food or water. At that point, the women climbed the hill, kissed their children , tossed them over the cliff, and broke into song and dance. They continued dancing in concentric circles, and at the completion of each full turn one jumped, until they all had fallen to death.

            The spectacle captured the imagination of painters, poets, historians, and especially nationalists, who glorified the suicide pact by embellishing the story with heroic Suliot women singing and dancing before they leaped into history.

            The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared in into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these ORTHODOX ALBANIANS each year by recreating the event in the elementary school pageants...Every March 25, that day that also commemorates the outbreak of the Greek Revolution, children offer a performance in which the children dance around in a circle. At each turn, one child drops off to represent the Suliots who leaped off the precipice. The dance continuous until all children have left the stage. (ANDRE GYROLMATOS, The BALKAN WARS, page 137-141)

            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Dedication to the picture: Suliot dance of death: rather than capitulate to notorious Balkan warlord Ali Pasha, the Albanian Suliot women chose suicide. They danced in concentric circles; at the end of each revolution, one jumped, until all had fallen to death.
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            9. ALI PASHA, IOANNINA and the GREEK REVOLUTION

            At the end of the 18th c, Ioannina was one of the most urban centres of Greece and Albania. The town had a population of 30.000 and had evolved into a major hub of commerce and banking in the Balkans. Under Ali’s governance, Ioannina was also transformed into the literary capital of Greece and it soon became a place of refuge for Greeks and other Christians fleeing Ottoman authority. Ali Pasha became almost a patron of the arts and a protector of those persecuted by the Ottomans and Orthodox administrations. He encouraged and supported the founding of schools, colleges, and libraries and provided generous endowments to maintain those institutions. GREEK quickly assumed prominence as the literary language of SOUTHERN ALBANIA and was studied by Christians and Muslims alike. YET, Ali Pasha had no real interest in either Greek or Albanian nationalism; he was simply using everything in his disposal to degrade the Ottoman authority. If his actions served the interests of the Greek revolutionaries, it was completely unintentional. His only interest was in maintaining and expanding the sphere of the Ioannina pashalik, and to do that, Ali had to eliminate all potential challengers to his rule.

            In practical terms, this meant that in addition to destroying the neighbouring Turkish governors and local Turkish notables, he also had to reduce the military capability of the armatoli, squash the quasi-independent ALBANIAN Christian villages, and destroy any significant klephts bands that could be used against him.

            The demise of the Suliots completed the disarmament of all the Christian villages in the pashalik. Ali Pasha was now virtually the only military power in the region. Over the next 17 years, he continued to consolidate his power, but when he began to exterminate Muslim communities, it became apparent to Sultan that the old lion had intentions other than fidelity to the Ottoman empire...

            Ali’s ambition however was not to be constrained by religion, ethnic or cultural scruples. After Sultan declared him a traitor, the wily Pasha resolved to co-opt the Albanians and Greeks into his schemes. He considered himself the natural chief of the Albanian Tosks and he assumed that he could easily become the political leader of the Greeks. Ali was aware of rumours about Greek plans for Revolution, and he was familiar with their desire for their own constitution and general assembly. In fact, he expected to create a strong national feeling in his favour by promising The Greeks a constitution and according to one account he even offered to convert to Orthodoxy to make himself more acceptable as the future head of the Greek State.

            Although he was not quite sure of what was meant by constitution or a national assembly, he convened a meeting of Albanian chieftains, Greek notables and Orthodox clergyman. He addressed the assembly in Greek. Ali proceeded to describe his plans for rebellion, and in amore uncharacteristic of the Ottoman ruler, he condescended to ask for their help. He claimed to be opposing the Sultan because he was being persecuted by the viziers of the Sublime Port for his vigilant support of Albanian interests and for the protection he offered the Christians from the ruinous demands of the sultan’s agents. Albanians agreed with everything what Ali said, the Greek secretaries meanwhile assured Ali that it would be easy to incite the Greeks into a rebellion while the rest of Greek delegates remained silent. Few of them believed the pasha’s sudden concern for the welfare of the Orthodox. Thus, he was unable to gain a consensus.
            Last edited by Epirot; 08-15-2011, 07:40 AM.
            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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            • Voltron
              Banned
              • Jan 2011
              • 1362

              Ok, lets dive into substance here. What exactly did they do for Albania ?

              Comment

              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                Ok, lets dive into substance here. What exactly did they do for Albania ?
                Not that simple, my friend! First of all, Albanians klephts and armatoli waged a continuous war against Ottomans all the time. Later on, a multitude of them were ranked into Ali Pasha's armies who waged a series of battles against Ottomans. Ali Pasha sought to create an independent Albanian state...so Klephtes and Armatoli did support this purpose, did not they?
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  They waged a war espescially against the TurkAlvanoi (their own ethnic kinsmen).
                  The reasons they sided with the Greeks is because in Greece there was a clear line as to what you were or were not. The Arvanites fitted right in the cause and subsequently became one of our best patriots.

                  Im not sure how much water the creation of the Albanian state holds. If they really believed it, they would of resisted against the state of Greece. Wouldnt they ? In Macedonia you cant even build a church without their approval, how much more likely would it of been to have them be an integral part of our society if they didnt want to be.

                  Comment

                  • julie
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 3869

                    Epirot, found this very interesting and thank you for the documentation and evidence for our southern neighbours benefit
                    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

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                    • Agamoi Thytai
                      Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 198

                      Epirot (though you are most likely a Kossovar),you are clutching at straws if you try to "prove" that Klephtes and Armatoli were all Albanians.First of all these terms are Greek,so why would Albanian warriors use Greek appelations?Anyway,the truth is what the Greek scholar Koumas wrote in that passage you've quoted in another thread:some Klephtes and Armatoloi were Greeks and some were Albanians,it was a very common practice in all the Balkans,.i.e. the hayduks of the Balkan Slavic peoples.You posted this:

                      "Some Christian tribes, especially the Roman Catholics of the north of Albania, are occasionally found in that situation : but, in general, the Christian Albanian soldiers have either remained at home for"the defence of their native districts, or have entered into the service of the Greek governors of the Ultra-Danubian provinces, or have joined the bands of robbers which infest various parts of European Turkey, or have been united to the Armatoli and Kleftes of Greece."

                      Well,if you posted this quote,then it's impossible that you didn't read the next pages of the very same book that confirm my view:



                      There are of course many other similar sources




                      As Koumas wrote,there are Greek folksongs of that era praising the deeds of famous Greek klephts:



                      Do names such as Jotis,Nannos,Skylodemos,Kontogiannis,Kaliakoudas,L iakos,Kontoyakumis,Diplas e.t.c sound Albanian to your ears?
















                      "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                      Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                      Comment

                      • Epirot
                        Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 399

                        Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                        First of all these terms are Greek,so why would Albanian warriors use Greek appelations?
                        I am so tired tonight as I cannot waste not a single minute. However, I see that you deserve a short lesson...If the terms are Greek (which I do not deny), this does not presuppose that they were Greek by ethnicity, does it? Let see the following example:

                        The etymology of the word "hajduk" is unclear. One theory is that hajduk was derived from the Turkish word haiduk or hayduk, which was originally used by the Ottomans to refer to Hungarian infantry soldiers. Another theory suggests that the word comes from the Hungarian hajtó or "hajdó" (plural hajtók or "hajdók"), meaning a (cattle) drover.[3] Indeed, these two theories do not necessarily contradict each other, as the Balkan word is said to be derived from the Turkish word haiduk or hayduk (bandit),[1][2][4] while the Turkish is in turn believed to have been borrowed from Hungarian and to have originally referred to Hungarian mercenaries who guarded the Hungarian-Turkish border.[5] Families of Croatian descent with the same oral traditions of "mountain banditry" use the surname Hidek, a derived form of "hajduk"
                        In reality, the hajduci of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries were as much guerrilla fighters against the Ottoman rule as they were bandits and highwaymen who preyed not only on Ottomans and their local representatives, but also on local merchants and travellers. As such, the term could also refer to any robber and carry a negative connotation
                        The Croatian and Serbian warriors were called as 'hajduki', a term which seems to stem from a Hungarian word. I do not believe you're suggesting that both Croatian and Serbian hajduks were Hungarians!!! I have to post again some passages ignored by you:


                        Sketches of modern Greece, by a young English volunteer in the ..., Volume 1, p. 406

                        The klepthes (the reputable robbers, as they esteemed themselves), of the mountains of Zante, and of the adjoining islands before enumerated, identified themselves with those of Albania, and are said, for many years, during the period of Venetian rule, to have taken common part with them.

                        Notes and observations on the Ionian islands and Malta: with some ..., Volume 2 By John Davy, p. 127
                        Highway robbers in other countries are the outcasts of mankind. In Greece, on the contrary, they were looked upon as heroes and protectors of the oppressed people, who, by the decperate resistance of those savage mountaineers, baffled all the attempts of the Turks to obtain quiet and permanent possession of the country.Protected, like the Circassians on Mount Caucasus, in their present warfare against the Russian aggressor, by their natural ramparts and their indomitable courage, the sons of the mountains made such havoc among the Turks of the plain, that they forced the indolent Pashas to take them into military service as a regular police, for the security of the country.These large bodies of free-born mountain Klephts were now called by a nobler name, armatoli; their chiefs became capitanseoi, and the wild warriors themselves pallikaria, or handsome youths. The highlands were divided into captainshipp, (kapitanata) where the command of the district succeeded from father to son.Yet, the Turks soon perceived the danger arising from such an organization of armed and daring native Christians. They repeatedly attempted to destroy the armatoli and their captains by treachery, and the ballads of modern Greece are full of the astonishing deeds of the heroes of Boukovalla, and Agrapha.When at last the general insurrection broke out in the year 1821, it was these independent klephts or armatoli, at that time the only armed and organized part of the Greek nation, who, at once uniting with the clergy, the peasantry, and the shepherds of the plains, defeated the Turks, under the command of Kolokotronis, Botzaris and the other Captains, and thus became the bulwark of Grecian independence.*

                        Mercersburg quarterly review, Volume 8, p. 353
                        I am asking myself what was the ethnicity of Kolkontronis, Botzaris and the other notable captains?

                        I do not know if you have read the book of Arvanite scholar, Aristidh Kola!? He gives ample proofs in regards with the ethnicity of kleftes and armatoli, which were undoubtedly Christian Albanians of what later became as Greece. He also ironized with the modern Greek historians when it comes to determine the ethnicity of participants of "revolutionary" wars. All of fierce anti-Ottoman warriors they describe without hesitation as Greeks, but if any of those participants co-operated with the Turks, he was Albanian. So you admit the Albanian origin of kleftes, only if they had coperated with the Ottomans, but if they did not, they were not Albanians any more. They were Greeks, even though they were not aware about this

                        Also, many Albanian 'armatoli' in the neighbourhood of Monastir and Fiorina, as in other parts of Greece, embarked upon paths of crime and extortion at the expense of travellers passing through the defiles...

                        History of Macedonia, 1354-1833m Apostolos Euangelou Vakalopoulos - 1973, p. 286
                        There were also in Albania, Thessaly, and Greece proper bodies of Christian warriors, called armatoli, who acted as bands of armed police, but whose actions came often to be confounded with those of the klephts.

                        The Encyclopaedia Britannica: latest edition. A dictionary of ...: Volume 11
                        Day Otis Kellogg, Thomas Spencer Baynes, William Robertson Smith - 1902 -
                        Their liking to the guerilla life has grown out of the ancient organisation of the Byzantine militia, or band of Armatoli. These were principally recruited by Albanians, but Greeks were also enrolled; and when turbulent spirits could not easily brook the insults to be met with in humble private life, they invariably had recourse to this military career. It often terminated, however, in the still more genial occupations of the Klepht.

                        New monthly magazine, Volume 87
                        Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai

                        some Klephtes and Armatoloi were Greeks and some were Albanians
                        The majority of Kleftes and Armatoli were Albanians. That's why the used to wear the Albanian fustanella:


                        The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece
                        Last edited by Epirot; 08-17-2011, 05:28 AM.
                        IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                        Comment

                        • Agamoi Thytai
                          Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 198

                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          I am so tired tonight as I cannot waste not a single minute. However, I see that you deserve a short lesson...If the terms are Greek (which I do not deny), this does not presuppose that they were Greek by ethnicity, does it? Let see the following example:


                          The Croatian and Serbian warriors were called as 'hajduki', a term which seems to stem from a Hungarian word. I do not believe you're suggesting that both Croatian and Serbian hajduks were Hungarians!!!
                          The word Hajduk could also be of Turkish origin,that's what your source actually say.Furthermore,it also says that this term was first applied by the Turks to the Croatian and Serbian brigands,they knew the Hungarian brigands under that name and so they called the Serbs and Croats too.Now who you think introduced the terms kleftes and armatoli in southern Balkans,the Turks?Whatfor,did Turks call people with names of foreign languages?

                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          I have to post again some passages ignored by you:


                          Sketches of modern Greece, by a young English volunteer in the ..., Volume 1, p. 406
                          That's meaningless,I also can find dozens of similar passages with different view than yours:






                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          I am asking myself what was the ethnicity of Kolkontronis, Botzaris and the other notable captains?
                          Some were of Arvanitic origin,like Miaoulis,Bumbulina and Tzavelas,not all though.The majority were not Arvanites,like Kanaris,Karaiskakis,Diakos,Papaflesas,Makrygiannis ,Nikitaras,Ypsilantis,Panourias,Mavromichalis e.t.c.As for those two you mentioned,Kolokotronis was not Arvanitis,this you can easily figure out if you read his memoirs:

                          Botsaris was from Suli and as far as I know Suliotes were a blend of Albanians and Greeks (that's why many toponyms in the district of Suli were Greek).However Suliotes selfidentified as Greeks,at least this is what another Suliote,Lambros Tzavelas points out in his letter to Ali Pasha:


                          And even Ali Pasha himself didn't consider both Botsaris and Tzavelas as Albanians:


                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          I do not know if you have read the book of Arvanite scholar, Aristidh Kola!? He gives ample proofs in regards with the ethnicity of kleftes and armatoli, which were undoubtedly Christian Albanians of what later became as Greece.
                          I've read his book "Αρβανίτες και η καταγωγή των Νεοελλήνων" (Arvanites and the origin of Modern Greeks).He was not a qualified historian or linguist and a very deluded person.Do you reall agree with all of his claims?He considered that Arvanites (and subsequently all Albanians) are of ancient Greek origin!Do you agree?
                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          He also ironized with the modern Greek historians when it comes to determine the ethnicity of participants of "revolutionary" wars. All of fierce anti-Ottoman warriors they describe without hesitation as Greeks, but if any of those participants co-operated with the Turks, he was Albanian. So you admit the Albanian origin of kleftes, only if they had coperated with the Ottomans, but if they did not, they were not Albanians any more. They were Greeks, even though they were not aware about this
                          I've already shown many quotes of non-Greek authors that distinguished Greeks from Albanians in ethnic and not religious sense.
                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          The majority of Kleftes and Armatoli were Albanians. That's why the used to wear the Albanian fustanella:


                          The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece
                          Why is the fustanela considered as exclusively Albanian dress?It existed amongst most Balkan peoples,Serbs,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Romanians,Vla chs and Greeks wore fustanelas too!
                          "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                          Polybius, Histories, 9.35

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                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Agamoi, are you seriously trying to downplay the significance of the Albanian element in modern Greeks, particularly those from the first half of the 19th century? The sources of the time are absolutely full of references to Albanians (and they are Albanian-speaking peoples not just people identifying as Albanians) in many parts of what became modern Greece.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              Greece, Albanians & Operation "Broom Sweep" (1993)

                              THEIR CLOTHES were dusty and their faces were burnt from weeks of labour under the Greek sun. Barefoot, bent double beneath sacks of possessions, one spare hand gripping a plastic bag, they staggered along the short stretch of no man's land that marks the border between Greece and Albania.

                              Albanians go barefoot to their barren land: Greece is expelling thousands of immigrant workers, who prefer virtual slave labour to the poverty of home. Tony Barber in Kakavija reports

                              Sunday 11 July 1993

                              THEIR CLOTHES were dusty and their faces were burnt from weeks of labour under the Greek sun. Barefoot, bent double beneath sacks of possessions, one spare hand gripping a plastic bag, they staggered along the short stretch of no man's land that marks the border between Greece and Albania.
                              There were about 20 in all, mostly middle-aged men and teenage boys. Once inside Albania, they were surrounded by taxi drivers offering to take them, for a fat sum, to their home towns.

                              The Albanians crossing at the remote, mountainous frontier post of Kakavija last Friday were the latest victims of a sour dispute between Albania and Greece. The Greek authorities, fed up with hundreds of thousands of Albanians who have crossed the border illegally in the past two years in search of employment, began to expel them on 25 June. The Albanian authorities complain that Greek policemen and soldiers have treated the Albanians like dirt, beating them with clubs, destroying their belongings and bundling them across the border with volleys of verbal abuse.

                              Ajim Canaj, who worked for a month as an agricultural labourer tending olive trees and cutting grass near Ioannina in northern Greece, said: 'I was trying to make some money for my wife and three children at home. My employer paid me very little and never even gave me a slice of bread to eat. Then last week the police arrived. They knew exactly where all the Albanians were working. They came at night and beat my friends. It was too dangerous for me. I came back to Albania of my own will.'

                              During his illegal stay in Greece, Canaj saved the equivalent of pounds 50. It seems a pitiful amount, but it is more than twice the monthly wage of a worker in Albania's ravaged state sector. Hard graft and humiliation in Greece are better than the desperation and squalor at home.

                              Rifat Arapi, a 21-year-old with a tuft of beard on his chin, had worked on a variety of farms across Greece in the past two months, sleeping in the open air or in barns. 'We heard that the Greek police were getting very tough, so we decided to come back. The police were arresting our friends and searching their pockets. If they found some money, they tore it up into little pieces. But I will go back if the situation improves. I didn't manage to save much this time.'

                              Mikel Bitri, the commander on the Albanian side of the border, said that the Greeks had forcibly expelled about 26,000 Albanians in the past fortnight. Hundreds of others, like Ajim Canaj and Rifat Arapi, had chosen to get out while the going was good.

                              Greece's Public Order Ministry estimated last February that about 150,000 illegal Albanian immigrants were in the country. The figure is deceptive, because many Albanians stay for only a month or two, and are replaced by others. Greek authorities say they deported 84,000 Albanians in 1991 and 379,000 in 1992. Since Albania's population is about 3.3 million and almost all the illegal immigrants are male, this means that one in four or five Albanian men may have entered Greece without permission in search of arduous, poorly paid work.

                              Nothing illustrates better the hardship of life in Albania, Europe's poorest and most barren country.

                              The pepole have thrown off the communist system which, under the Stalinist Enver Hoxha, was one of the world's most secretive and ruthless dictatorships. But his legacy remains. Albania is a country of crumbling houses and pot-holed roads where mules and bicycles are as common a form of transport as cars. Small children, apparently abandoned, lie wrapped in blankets on the streets, while others beg for money or try to sell cigarettes and soft drinks. Some apartment blocks lack doors or windows, some homes have no flushing toilets. There is little incentive to stay in this forlorn land, and every incentive to leave.

                              The Albanians who have entered Greece have spread themselves far and wide. When the police began their latest campaign of expulsions, in an operation called 'Broom Sweep' by the press, they found Albanians in Athens, Crete, Kos, Patmos, Rhodes and the Dodecanese islands. But not all Greek politicians agree with the deportations.

                              'These massive expulsions of poor people are no response to the serious political problems posed by Greek-Albanian relations,' said Maria Damanaki, the president of the radical Left Coalition.

                              The dispute between Athens and Tirana is, indeed, about rather more than illegal immigration. The Albanian government says the expulsions were in retaliation for its deportation two weeks ago of a Greek Orthodox priest from the southern town of Gjirokaster. The authorities accused the priest, Chrysostomos Myaidonis, of inciting the Greek minority in Albania to campaign for unification with Greece.

                              The ethnic Greeks live in a part of southern Albania that Greece calls Northern Epirus. Although the present Greek government disclaims any ambition to annex the area, previous rulers have taken a different view. It was not until 1987 that the former Greek prime minister, Andreas Papandreou, formally ended the state of war that had existed between Greece and Albania since the Second World War.

                              Ever since it won independence in 1913, one of Albania's greatest fears has been partition between Serbia and Greece. In the current Balkan climate of aggressive nationalism and territorial rivalry, these fears are increasing. Expulsions of Albanians from Greece, though entirely justified from a legal point of view, may be pouring more fat on the fire.

                              Operation 'Broom Sweep' targets Albanians
                              By Liz Fekete
                              1 October 1993
                              Thirteen thousand Albanians have been expelled from Greece after Albania deported a Greek-Orthodox priest accused of anti-Albanian propaganda and inciting the Greek minority in Albania to campaign for unification with Greece.
                              The Greek chief of police, Antonis Lambadiaris, said that operation 'Broom Sweep' would be followed by the deportation of 100000 Albanians and called on Greeks to report illegals.

                              Arrests were also carried out on the Greek islands of Crete, Kos, Patmos, Rhodes, the Cyclades and the Dodecanese, where hundreds of immigrants are employed in construction or agriculture. Those rounded up in Athens were taken to a special centre in the port of Piraeus.

                              The Albanian authorities say that those expelled have been 'treated like dirt', beaten with clubs and their belongings destroyed.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                10 years later they were respected in Greece for their willingness to do all kinds of work.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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