Macedonian Language - 16th Century

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  • Bratot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2855

    #76


    A chart of the South Slav languages from a book "Zarys dialektologii południowosłowiańskiej z wyborem tekstów gwarowych" by Franciszek Słwaski, PWN, Warsaw 1962.
    Macedonian language is desribed as macedoński.(MACEDONIAN)


    Macedonian dialects of Aegean Macedonia from the same book. See the original Macedonian names of towns in Greece.
    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

    Comment

    • Дени
      Member
      • May 2010
      • 136

      #77
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      We seem to have a few Albanians around.
      Is there any Albanian texts from Macedonia dating back 500 years ago that we can have a look at?
      How about from Albania around 500 years ago?
      The 'Formula e pagëzimit' is the oldest document containing Albanian (in this case, Gheg).

      The original text (with original spelling): Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit

      In modern Gheg: Un te pagezont per emenit t'Atit, e t'Birit, e t'Shpirtit Shenjt

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #78
        Originally posted by Bratot View Post


        A chart of the South Slav languages from a book "Zarys dialektologii południowosłowiańskiej z wyborem tekstów gwarowych" by Franciszek Słwaski, PWN, Warsaw 1962.
        Macedonian language is desribed as macedoński.(MACEDONIAN)


        Macedonian dialects of Aegean Macedonia from the same book. See the original Macedonian names of towns in Greece.
        Thank you for these maps Bratot, they are of great significance to our cause.
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #79
          Originally posted by Дени View Post
          The 'Formula e pagëzimit' is the oldest document containing Albanian (in this case, Gheg).

          The original text (with original spelling): Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit

          In modern Gheg: Un te pagezont per emenit t'Atit, e t'Birit, e t'Shpirtit Shenjt
          How about examples in Serbian and Bulgarian?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Дени
            Member
            • May 2010
            • 136

            #80
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            How about examples in Serbian and Bulgarian?
            As far as Serbian is concerned, we'd have to look for specifically vernacular, novoštokavski texts from before the early part of the 19th century when Karadžić proposed his reform. Prior to this, written Serbian was heavily influenced by OCS and Russian. Croatian texts could be compared to a similar effect, but they too were heavily influenced by regional dialects (kajkavski and čakavski).

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #81
              How about Bulgarian?

              The Macedonian language is quite resilient to remain so similar after such a long period, do you agree?

              Do you also agree with the suggestion that post-definitive article in Macedonian evolved in the following manner: to dete -> deteto, to tatko -> tatkoto, etc? When did the post-definitive article develop in Macedonian?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Дени
                Member
                • May 2010
                • 136

                #82
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                How about Bulgarian?

                The Macedonian language is quite resilient to remain so similar after such a long period, do you agree?
                True Bulgarian (i.e. not OCS and not Bulgarian influenced OCS — the recension) and can be observed from around the 16th century. This is when analytic features became true grammatical categories in Macedonian and Bulgarian (loss of noun declension and infinitive verb forms, definite article, etc.).

                The Macedonian dialects could be called resilient, but then so are the Bulgarian dialects. Basic morphology, basic phonology and basic vocabulary have changed little over this period.

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon
                Do you also agree with the suggestion that post-definitive article in Macedonian evolved in the following manner: to dete -> deteto, to tatko -> tatkoto, etc? When did the post-definitive article develop in Macedonian?
                The Macedonian definite article developed from demonstrative pronouns which became postfixed as a result of influence from other Balkan languages (Balkansprachbund).

                Definiteness began to develop in the late OCS period and by the 13th century a fully fledged postfixed article, though only used sporadically, can be observed (Koneski cites злыотъ рабъ and деноть from the Dobrejšovo evangelie examples). In line with the voicing of strong-positioned yers, from рабътъ we get *работ (modern Macedonian робот, 'the slave').

                So it's actually the other way around: рабъ тъ > рабътъ > *работ; дѣвы тѣ > *дѣвытѣ > *девите.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Дени View Post
                  True Bulgarian (i.e. not OCS and not Bulgarian influenced OCS — the recension) and can be observed from around the 16th century.
                  Is there an example you can refer us to?
                  The Macedonian definite article developed from demonstrative pronouns which became postfixed as a result of influence from other Balkan languages (Balkansprachbund).
                  How did the influence of other languages instigate this change?
                  Definiteness began to develop in the late OCS period and by the 13th century a fully fledged postfixed article, though only used sporadically, can be observed (Koneski cites злыотъ рабъ and деноть from the Dobrejšovo evangelie examples). In line with the voicing of strong-positioned yers, from рабътъ we get *работ (modern Macedonian робот, 'the slave').

                  So it's actually the other way around: рабъ тъ > рабътъ > *работ; дѣвы тѣ > *дѣвытѣ > *девите.
                  Interesting, thanks for the explanation. Do you agree with the below assertion made by an individual that used to post here some time ago:
                  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...icle#post16813

                  I read that the definite article started to appear in around 12th century, but at that time it was still the demonstrative pronoun that was used in postposition instead of preposition like in other languages. In Slovak for example, the pronoun still exists today as ten, tá, to, or in Serbian as taj, ta, to. They are of coursed changed (declined) by cases. The pronoun was first too declined in Macedonian and Bulgarian after it entered postposition. So for example место то which is in the Nominative case could be места того in the Genitive case or месту тому in the Dative case. At some point cases were dropped and the pronoun became the article. In almost all Indo-European languages today that use a definite article the article almost always evolved from the demonstrative pronoun.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Дени View Post
                    The 'Formula e pagëzimit' is the oldest document containing Albanian (in this case, Gheg).

                    The original text (with original spelling): Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit

                    In modern Gheg: Un te pagezont per emenit t'Atit, e t'Birit, e t'Shpirtit Shenjt
                    The example in other languages I was looking for was to come from external authors documenting the unique features of languages in Macedonia or nearby. The above document is interesting but not really an attempt to describe the day to day language of the time.

                    Your text above is:
                    I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost

                    Using "Google translate" for Albanian, I get the following text for the text above:

                    Unë të pagëzoj në emër të Atit dhe të Birit e të Frymës së Shenjtë

                    Is the translation wrong?
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Дени
                      Member
                      • May 2010
                      • 136

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Risto the Great
                      Unë të pagëzoj në emër të Atit dhe të Birit e të Frymës së Shenjtë

                      Is the translation wrong?
                      The translation, as far as I can tell, is OK (don't know about së Shenjtë).

                      But bear in mind that Standard Albanian is codified Tosk (ęmën vs. emër).

                      Comment

                      • Дени
                        Member
                        • May 2010
                        • 136

                        #86
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Is there an example you can refer us to?
                        I'll try and find something.

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon
                        How did the influence of other languages instigate this change?
                        It was either a specifically Balkan innovation which came about almost simultaneously in these languages (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Aromanian, Romanian and some southernmost Serbian dialects), or it could have even began within one or more of these languages and then spread to the others. Историја на македонскиот јазик by Koneski has quite a bit of data in regard to the Balkan postposed article; I'll give you a quote as soon as I find it in my mess.

                        EDIT: I now see Граматика на македонскиот јазики also has fair bit of historical data. I'll provide quotes when I get back home tonight.

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon
                        Do you agree with the below assertion made by an individual that used to post here some time ago:
                        Yes, though I don't know if the same is true for "all Indo-European languages" as s/he states.
                        Last edited by Дени; 12-19-2010, 05:57 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #87
                          Deni, when you come across this thread again, can you post the information you referred to above?
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Pelister
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2742

                            #88
                            I think that the Bulgarian and Macedonian literary traditions are quite separate, although in the latter half of the 19th century non-Macedonian representations of our Macedonian langauge as 'Bulgarian' (particularly by Missionaries, but others also) gave the emerging Bulgarian state (hostile to our interests) the kind of intellectual arsenal it needed to 'claim' not only Macedonian territory, but its people and its language. I really don't know enough about the development and adoption of a State langauge in Bulgaria, but I can hypothesise that if missionaries were recording the Macedonian langauge in books and misrepresenting it as 'Bulgarian', and that that langauge became the official language of the Bulgarian State, you can see how a foriegn State (the Bulgarian) is able to appropriate a foriegn language (the Macedonian). If the basis of its national langauge comes from Macedonian territory, then you have a situation where by the langauge of about 5 per cent of Bulgarian territory today (Pirin Macedonia) represents the entire State, even though the traditional language of the other 95% of Bulgarian territory, would have been largely unintelligible to the Macedonians. The huge number of Macedonian immigrants, and the fact that the capital was placed so close to Macedonian territory, probably influenced its choice of national language. Which ever way you look it, the Bulgarians are thieves.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #89
                              BUMP
                              What a wonderful thread.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                Indeed.

                                I notice this thread has been avoided completely by Macedonia's neighbouring people, one wonders why. Perhaps they're more interested in social or other labels for the people, rather than the actual content in the text.

                                I can be a dreamer, and ask, all politics aside, can any of our neighbours provide such a relevant comparison in terms of language preservation from 500 years ago? But who am I asking, none appear willing to meet the simple request about the history of their own languages, yet all of them are seemingly 'expert' historians on Macedonia. Go figure.
                                Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                                No takers on Risto's and SoM's requests? Strange.
                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                Let me take a stab at it.
                                The Greeks have been horrified by this article. They are shocked to their core at the direct attack on their identity. It is difficult for them to talk of a Greece of 180 years ago and here we are with a language documented half a millennium ago that has direct if not exact relationships with modern Macedonian. It is a knife through their collective hearts and the fact that the language is in a place that many would prefer to call a Greek or Albanian stronghold in historical times .... (even though the etymology of the village name is nothing but Macedonian) ... just hurts them that little bit more.

                                They have no answer Daskalot. They never will because to answer this will force them to look at themselves first. They will not like what they see. They may even develop a sensation of guilt over time .... they much prefer to hate us instead.
                                I don’t see why you think I’m horrified. That doesn't seem like a difficult request. Actually, the document of post#1 DOES have the Greek phrase from that time (1600s) AND today. The difference is that in the case of Greece there are many thousands documents from 17th Century alone, documents of various sizes, content, style and significance.

                                Generally speaking, NO language changes significantly in 400 or 500 years. At least that's my experience from Greek and English theatrical plays from the 1500s and 1600s. Kornaros, Chortatzis, Shakespeare and Marlowe are still performed unchanged and the modern audiences can follow.


                                ===
                                Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-23-2016, 07:15 AM.

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