United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Rogi
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2343

    I would like to see a thorough and open (public) decision tree developed on Macedonian foreign policy, development and strategic & national interests which shows all options and paths available to Macedonia.

    With that, it would show that the worst path, in the long term, is to continue negotiations (and all that follows), whilst terminating the negotiations is the best path (despite the assumed possible short term consequences).

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Meto, how about the Framework Agreement?

      If UMD supposeldy does not support the Interim Accord, will it finally explain its President's numerous statements not only supporting a name change, but providing "acceptable" variations?

      Why has UMD highlighted aspects of the Accord that have been violated by Greece, if not to call on Greece to enforce the Accord and by virtue of doing so, believes that the Accord is legitimate?

      Further, if UMD supposedly does not support the Interim Accord, will UMD publically call on the Macedonian Government to declare it null and void and REVERSE the injustice that it implemented through the Accord (like the vast majority of diaspora organisations do), or is this just another token statement to appease the masses on MTO?
      Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-11-2010, 06:11 PM.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Buktop, will you state your silly theories or shall I paraphrase them for you?
        Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-11-2010, 08:36 PM.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • UMDiaspora.org
          Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 525

          UMD does not work to appease masses Vangelovski. UMD does not support the Interim Accord, and you will see some positive developments once our policy statements come out reiterating the positions of UMD.

          Regarding the Framework Agreement, we will need to check with our Director of Public Policy Boban Jovanovski. He can be contacted at [email protected] as well. Several of UMD's co-founders and officers have written on the topic of Framework Agreement and opposing the agreement.

          However, some background on some of the views that may reflect policy. The Framework Agreement is a highly tricky subject, as all parties in Macedonia signed the agreement (whether we believe they were forced into signing or not). In addition, the Framework Agreement is embedded within the Macedonian Constitution now, and the DUI, which is one of the signers, was invited by VMRO-DPMNE to form the current government coalition. Furthermore, implementation of the Framework Agreement has become a prerequisite to EU membership, according to the EU Council reports on Macedonia, and the Macedonian Government is working to implement the Framework Agreement. Within the Macedonian Government, there is a Deputy Prime Minister specifically tasked with implementing the agreement. This is where it becomes very tricky.

          Unfortunately, in our view, the Macedonian political leaders and communities abroad, although vocal in some instances, were not able to fully successful advocate the Macedonian positions to gain the support of the international community. During this time, Macedonia was viewed as the "bad guy" and the Albanians, the "good guy."

          UMD was founded in 2004, few years after the signing of the Framework Agreement and few months after decentralization, and/or right around the time decentralization occured. UMD co-founders were vocal against the redistricting of Macedonian municipalities along ethnic lines. UMD did, however, bring up views of the Diaspora on the Framework Agreement in our meetings with then President Branko Crvenkovski, then Prime Ministers Vlado Buckovski/Harry Kostov, and then Foreign Minister Ilinka Mitreva both in New York City and in Washington, D.C.

          Any thoughts would be appreciated and taken into consideration.

          Please see article by Steve Gligorov and Meto Koloski on Decentalization - http://maknews.com/html/articles/koloski/koloski8.html

          On the name issue, here is an article by UMD co-founder Steve Gligorov that may be of interest to some: http://www.fpa.org/newsletter_info24...etter_info.htm
          For comments, questions, concerns, please contact us at:

          United Macedonian Diaspora
          http://www.umdiaspora.org

          1101 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 6th Floor, Washington, D.C. 20004, United States
          Phone: (202) 756-2244, Fax: (202) 756-7323, E-mail: [email protected]

          PO Box 2153, Hawthorn, Vic. 3122, Australia
          Phone: 0438 385 466, E-mail: [email protected]

          3555 St. Clair Avenue East, Toronto, ON, M1K 1L6, Canada
          Phone: 416-209-0448, E-mail: [email protected]

          Comment

          • UMDiaspora.org
            Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 525

            Rogi, excellent idea. UMD will entertain this idea for the conference, as we are currently working on developing the agenda. In addition, perhaps this is an idea to be brought before a think tank in Macedonia to engage scholarly work on this.
            For comments, questions, concerns, please contact us at:

            United Macedonian Diaspora
            http://www.umdiaspora.org

            1101 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 6th Floor, Washington, D.C. 20004, United States
            Phone: (202) 756-2244, Fax: (202) 756-7323, E-mail: [email protected]

            PO Box 2153, Hawthorn, Vic. 3122, Australia
            Phone: 0438 385 466, E-mail: [email protected]

            3555 St. Clair Avenue East, Toronto, ON, M1K 1L6, Canada
            Phone: 416-209-0448, E-mail: [email protected]

            Comment

            • Prolet
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 5241

              Buktop, They would all go to the VIP airport which is right next door, ive been before its pretty good.

              But i see where you are coming from, thats why as of March 1, TAV will be reconstructing all the airports including the cargo in Stip.
              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Meto, more of your ambiguous ramblings. I have to take that as UMD does in fact support the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord, seeing as it continues to duck and weave and refuses to answer direct questions.

                I didn't ask you for a history lesson, I asked you what UMD stands for? Your inability to provide a direct answer only demonstrates that UMD either does not know what it stands for or actually views these agreements as legitimate and justifiable and does not want to publically state that.

                I also have to take it that UMD is still considering "acceptable" name changes seeing as it refuses to explain its President's name change statements.
                Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-11-2010, 06:55 PM.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Warrior
                  Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 173

                  Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                  Once again, this time maybe so you can understand it, the soldiers are there as POLICE,
                  they cannot shoot people unless people shoot at them,
                  their job also includes teaching the locals how to become police so that bad guys can't do bad things anymore...

                  By the way, I wonder how many cow's were slaughtered to make those glamorous Jimmy Choo's you love so much considering that 90% of their products are leather. Just while we are on the topic of Murder...
                  A relative of mine got back from Afganistan after being injured in a combat and he was not injured whilst he was policing with the American troops!! He got injured whilst they were searching through village houses and one of the elders threw a bomb in the vehicle that was infront of his house. I do believe 5-6 US troops got killed in the explosion. Why kind of policing is that?? If someone comes to my house and terrorises my family i will do exactly the same thing.

                  He went on to say many stories about life in Afghanistan about being a soldier, but i would like to think he was boasting and those things werent true. If a small fragnment of his stories was true, certainly the US and their lackey troops are not there to create peace, its more about keeping the ammunition factories working in the US!!

                  Its no fault of the US or Maco soldiers to be there, but the US government has convinced many people that it is right to go there and terrorise innocent people!!! What makes this argument extremely sad is that we are going there under the banner of NATO, but we are not part of NATO!!!!

                  Btw in that scenario 2 Maco soldiers were injured and transffered to Germany for treatment, but at know stage did the government release a media statement about the incident!!

                  Comment

                  • osiris
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1969

                    getting involved in pointless wars is not going to solve any of the worlds security problems but when the usa farts our governmnet applauds.

                    the question is why are we so besotted with the delusional and self serving policies of the american elite. they cannot rule the world through violence and its a shame their gullible and paranoid people dont wake up from their bred in the usa stupour.

                    is umd serving us interests, yes and any organisation whose main aim is to please its masters is not going to achieve much for their nation.

                    Comment

                    • TrueMacedonian
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3810

                      UMD is a foriegn policy tool of the West to destroy us.

                      Nothing more.
                      Oh boy I mean I like reading conspiracy theories and about secret societies like Skull and Bones and the Bilderberg Group but this attack is just getting out of hand. Pelister with all this energy on attacking UMD you could have used it to attack our real enemies South of Macedonia. And the ghost of x-mas past Vangelovski pops in to add his 2 pence and now UMD are tools of Western powers? What a waste of a topic and I feel sorry for those of you who are sucked in on this sham.
                      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                      Comment

                      • Buktop
                        Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 934

                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        Buktop, will you state your silly theories or shall I paraphrase them for you?
                        Is it really so hard for you to answer simple questions?

                        In a republican government who votes for Parliamentarians? Why do they vote for Parliamentarians? What is the Parliament for?
                        "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                        Never once say you walk upon your final way
                        though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                        Our long awaited hour will draw near
                        and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                        Comment

                        • Buktop
                          Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 934

                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          Meto, more of your ambiguous ramblings. I have to take that as UMD does in fact support the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord, seeing as it continues to duck and weave and refuses to answer direct questions.

                          I didn't ask you for a history lesson, I asked you what UMD stands for? Your inability to provide a direct answer only demonstrates that UMD either does not know what it stands for or actually views these agreements as legitimate and justifiable and does not want to publically state that.

                          I also have to take it that UMD is still considering "acceptable" name changes seeing as it refuses to explain its President's name change statements.
                          You are one to talk about avoiding simple questions. UMD just answered blatantly in their opening sentence that they do not support the Interim Accord or Ohrid Framework.

                          And once again, you have not shown any proof where UMD supports the Interim Agreement or Ohrid Framework.
                          "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                          Never once say you walk upon your final way
                          though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                          Our long awaited hour will draw near
                          and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Buktop,

                            I’m not sure why your shy, its not like you’re using your real name here, but I’ll briefly put forward your theory of consent, as I understand it. Please correct me if I’m misrepresented it.

                            Buktop believes that in a republic, once a government is elected, that government has unlimited powers and authority, including the authority to negotiate our state name. By virtue of being elected, Buktop believes that a government has received ‘consent’ from the people for whatever laws or actions that government enacts or undertakes, respectively. Buktop believes that the constitution and human rights can be ignored by the government, because the people have provided ‘consent’ to that government to do as it pleases for its term in power. Further, Buktop believes that if the people do not openly and actively oppose the government, that they are tacitly providing their ‘consent’ to the government.

                            I, however, disagree. In my view, a republican government consists of those persons to whom certain powers held by the citizens in common are delegated, to act as agents for those citizens, exercising only such powers as are delegated to them, and according to their instructions. That delegation and those instructions constitute the constitution, which may be written or unwritten.

                            A delegation of powers is not a transfer or assignment, and may be reclaimed at any time that the citizens, in their judgement, find that their agents are not acting in accordance with their wishes.

                            The authority of an agent or official exists only for as long and to the extent that he exercises his legitimate powers properly, and he automatically ceases to be an agent or official if he exceeds his authority.

                            The purpose of a good constitution is to limit the power of the government so that it cannot be exercised arbitrarily. Generally, a constitution outlines the structure of Government, establishes necessary institutions and specifies their duties and responsibilities. A constitution delegates limited and specific authority to the government in order for it to carry out its duties and meet its responsibilities as defined by the constitution. Therefore, a government is not free to do as it pleases and can only exercise the powers expressly delegated to it under the constitution.

                            In a constitutional republic, therefore, the constitution is the supreme civil law, superior to all other public acts, whether by officials or private citizens. Any statute, regulation, executive order, or court ruling which is inconsistent with the constitution and not derived from it is unconstitutional and null and void from inception.

                            Nowhere in the Macedonian Constitution do I see the Macedonian Government been delegated the authority to negotiate changes to the constitution with a third party, in this case a foreign government. Such authority cannot be assumed and must be expressly provided by the people, which it has not.

                            A further point to consider is natural rights (fundamental human rights). The natural rights of persons are inalienable, provided to us by our Creator (God) and preceding the social contract and the constitution, and persons may not be deprived of them even with their consent, since they do not have the power to surrender those rights, and therefore do not have the power to delegate the deprivation of those rights to others.

                            If we to accept Buktop’s theory that a government has unlimited power by simply wining an election (even if it were to theoretically receive 100 per cent of the vote), we would have to accept that the Nazi holocaust was consented to by the people, including the Jewish people themselves, because not only were the Nazi’s elected to government through a democratic vote, but the people did not oppose their policies, hence “consented” to all of the regimes “laws” and actions.

                            No republican government, even if it were elected by 100 per cent of the people, can act outside of the authority delegated to it in the constitution or disregard natural rights. If it does, it is no longer a republican government, it is a tyranny.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              Buktop,

                              UMD said it did not support the Interim Accord and ducked responding to the Framework Agreement. However, as usual, UMD is flip-flopping.

                              UMD has used the Interim Accord and Framework agreements as supportive arguments in many of their press releases - why would they do that unless they believed these agreements were legitimate and justified?
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

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