How did Golo Brdo & Mala Prespa come under Albanian cotrol?

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #16
    I call bullshit. You should know better.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1595

      #17
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      I call bullshit. You should know better.
      You call bullshit on a the -phone terminology? It is a legitimate linguistic term, not much more I can say than that. Either way, this isn't relevant to the thread nor my statement.
      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #18
        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
        You call bullshit on a the -phone terminology? It is a legitimate linguistic term, not much more I can say than that. Either way, this isn't relevant to the thread nor my statement.
        He calls bullshit on your unnecessary use of the term. So do I. Those people are Macedonians and in this case there was no need to ambiguously characterise them with a linguistic term. He is right. You should know better.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          #19
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          He calls bullshit on your unnecessary use of the term. So do I. Those people are Macedonians and in this case there was no need to ambiguously characterise them with a linguistic term. He is right. You should know better.

          I disagree, Gorica is not apart of Macedonia and its non-Albanian population died off long ago. There is no way of knowing if they spoke Macedonian or another language similar to it, we can't force our identity and language on people who can't speak for themselves anymore. It's recorded "Slavic" was spokein Gorica but its exact relation to Macedonian or any other language is not known for sure. It would be the same as claiming the historical Slavophone population of Epirus and Thessaly were Macedonians as well.
          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

          Comment

          • Tomche Makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2011
            • 1123

            #20
            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
            I disagree, Gorica is not apart of Macedonia and its non-Albanian population died off long ago.
            I think the Greeks in particular would take issue with that view.

            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
            There is no way of knowing if they spoke Macedonian or another language similar to it, we can't force our identity and language on people who can't speak for themselves anymore. It's recorded "Slavic" was spokein Gorica but its exact relation to Macedonian or any other language is not known for sure. It would be the same as claiming the historical Slavophone population of Epirus and Thessaly were Macedonians as well.
            So who do you personally think these Slavic speakers likely were?, Serbians?, Bulgarians?, Ukrainians?, Poles?, Russians?, Slavophone Greeks?, Greeks?, Albanians?, Turks?, Germans?, Irish?, Swedes?, Iranians?, Japanese?, Brazilians?, Nigerians?
            Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 05-30-2018, 02:51 AM.
            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #21
              Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
              You call bullshit on a the -phone terminology? It is a legitimate linguistic term, not much more I can say than that. Either way, this isn't relevant to the thread nor my statement.
              This is a Macedonian forum and any Macedonians who feel they are being more correct by using the language of our enemy (in this case Greeks) must have souvlaki in his head.

              You have the opportunity to present facts as Macedonians deservedly should acknowledge and see them. And, if we could muster any kind of thoughtful and cohesive action, the world might begin to follow.

              Another example is what you might call "Church Slavonic" is what I call "Old Macedonian". See what I did there? Nobody else can take that away from us. But when people like you give it away for free, it is offensive.

              And the last time I ever heard the words:
              Germanophone,
              Anglophone,
              Hispanophone,
              Francophone, etc.
              ... was never.

              So while you believe my point has nothing to do with this thread, I agree for different reasons. "Slavophones" have nothing to do with Macedonians. Therefore you introduced the irrelevance. I simply pointed it out.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #22
                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                Gorica is not apart of Macedonia and its non-Albanian population died off long ago.
                Peco Cingovski was a Macedonian communist fighter during WWII who was born in Gorica. The paternal great-grandparents of some of my distant cousins in Macedonia were born in Gorica and moved to the village of Trap in Bitola at the beginning of the 20th century. All of these individuals identified as Macedonians. Your earlier suggestion that they "died well back into the 18th century" is, quite simply, wrong.
                There is no way of knowing if they spoke Macedonian or another language similar to it, we can't force our identity and language on people who can't speak for themselves anymore. It's recorded "Slavic" was spokein Gorica but its exact relation to Macedonian or any other language is not known for sure.
                The vernacular spoken in Gorica belongs to the south-western group of Macedonian dialects, which means it is close to the vernacular spoken in Kostur. There is a document from the 16th century where words and phrases are recorded from the south-western region of Macedonia and they are almost identical to the dialects spoken in Bitola and Lerin. Geographically, Gorica is roughly about 50km or so from Kostur or the Macedonian-controlled part of Lake Prespa. It is less than a 100km to reach either Bitola or Lerin. The nearest predominantly "Slavophone" town outside of historical Macedonia is probably Podgorica in Montenegro which is about 300km away. Look at a map and then take a wild guess as to which language the Gorica dialects would most resemble.
                It would be the same as claiming the historical Slavophone population of Epirus and Thessaly were Macedonians as well.
                Not really. Aside from toponyms we don't have much more to compare for these two regions. That said, due to continuum if such dialects were still spoken in those regions it would naturally follow that they would be more related to Macedonian than any other language further north.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Liberator of Makedonija
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 1595

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                  So who do you personally think these Slavic speakers likely were?, Serbians?, Bulgarians?, Ukrainians?, Poles?, Russians?, Slavophone Greeks?, Greeks?, Albanians?, Turks?, Germans?, Irish?, Swedes?, Iranians?, Japanese?, Brazilians?, Nigerians?
                  Possibly their own people completely independent of all modern nations, like the Thracians.
                  I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                  Comment

                  • Tomche Makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1123

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                    Possibly their own people completely independent of all modern nations, like the Thracians.
                    Do you believe Macedonian communities were capable of existing anywhere else in the world?, Or did the impenetrable border security that existed prior to the 20th century preclude them from travelling to any region outside of what we now consider the geographic borderlines of Macedonia? (even to, say, one of the closest cities to rural villages on the outskirts of those traditional geographic Macedonian borders i.e. Gorica?)
                    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #25
                      Those Albanophones in Macedonia never stop ringing!
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Liberator of Makedonija
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 1595

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Peco Cingovski was a Macedonian communist fighter during WWII who was born in Gorica. The paternal great-grandparents of some of my distant cousins in Macedonia were born in Gorica and moved to the village of Trap in Bitola at the beginning of the 20th century. All of these individuals identified as Macedonians. Your earlier suggestion that they "died well back into the 18th century" is, quite simply, wrong.

                        The vernacular spoken in Gorica belongs to the south-western group of Macedonian dialects, which means it is close to the vernacular spoken in Kostur. There is a document from the 16th century where words and phrases are recorded from the south-western region of Macedonia and they are almost identical to the dialects spoken in Bitola and Lerin. Geographically, Gorica is roughly about 50km or so from Kostur or the Macedonian-controlled part of Lake Prespa. It is less than a 100km to reach either Bitola or Lerin. The nearest predominantly "Slavophone" town outside of historical Macedonia is probably Podgorica in Montenegro which is about 300km away. Look at a map and then take a wild guess as to which language the Gorica dialects would most resemble.

                        Not really. Aside from toponyms we don't have much more to compare for these two regions. That said, due to continuum if such dialects were still spoken in those regions it would naturally follow that they would be more related to Macedonian than any other language further north.

                        Fair enough, you make good points.
                        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                          Do you believe Macedonian communities were capable of existing anywhere else in the world?, Or did the impenetrable border security that existed prior to the 20th century preclude them from travelling to any region outside of what we now consider the geographic borderlines of Macedonia? (even to, say, one of the closest cities to rural villages on the outskirts of those traditional geographic Macedonian borders i.e. Gorica?)

                          Oh course we can and did/do. The borders of Macedonia just all other nations are the results of politics above all else. The Macedonian peasant in the Ottoman period would have no clue about these regional borders and could have travelled and settled anywhere.
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post

                            And the last time I ever heard the words:
                            Germanophone,
                            Anglophone,
                            Hispanophone,
                            Francophone, etc.
                            ... was never.
                            consisting of or belonging to an English-speaking population especially in a country where two or more languages are spoken… See the full definition

                            English Translation of “GERMANOPHONE” | The official Collins French-English Dictionary online. Over 100,000 English translations of French words and phrases.


                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #29
                              You can't rely on any of them. I note none of them provide a definition of "Macedonophone". They must be second rate internet things. Ask me what it means, I can tell you.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #30
                                germanophone
                                [ʒɛʀmanɔfɔn ]
                                adjective
                                German-speaking
                                masculine and feminine noun
                                German-speaker
                                While you are at it, each of your justifications relate to nations. German is used above. "Slavophone" relates to the Kingdom of the Slavs? What is "Slavic"? I have never heard anyone speak Slavic. How do you say "In the service of Greeks" in "Slavic". And ultimately, what is a "slavophone"? A Greek can tell us, but I don't trust them much.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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