Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #61
    Many of the Macedonian or Slavonic loans in Albanian appear to be in relation to verbs. Here is a list of some words that are likely loans:

    English-Albanian-Macedonian

    Pledge/Word - Besa - Beseda (OCS)
    Oath - Betim - Veti
    Oral - Gojor - Govor
    Spoke - Rreze - Reche
    Custom - Zakon - Zakon (law)
    Fun - Zbavites - Zabava

    Pick - Zgjedh - Zgodi or Godi
    Ready - Gati - Gotov
    Queue - Radhe - Red
    Record - Shenim - Snima
    Delete - Prish - Brishi
    Walk - Shetitje - Shetaj
    Run - Tirazh - Trcha
    Row - Vozit - Vozi (ride)
    Kick = Goditje; Godi or Pogodi (pelt)

    Male - Mashkull - Mashko

    Nothing - Hich - Ich
    Stream - Rreke - Reka (river)
    Fire - Zjarr - Zhar
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Astrit
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2009
      • 28

      #62
      SOM, a more proper way to say father in Albanian would be Ate


      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      So then it would be fair to say that today's Albanian vocabulary is more non-Albanian than Albanian?

      How much % of Slavonic words in the Albanian language? 20%? 10%? Less? I notice that even words such as 'Besa' have a Slavonic origin, were you aware of this? 'Beseda' is cited in Church Slavonic texts from the 9th century.
      Yes, most of the Albanian vocabulary is foreign but there is so much more to a language than loan words.

      My rough estimates of standard Albanian would be(not 100% accurate):

      30-35% Proto-Albanian

      35-40% Latin

      15-20% Greek

      10-15% Slavic

      2-3% "Other" (Persian and Turkish mainly)



      I believe the word Besa is neither Albanian or Slavonic origin. I remember hearing of an old Besa tribe that was settled around the Eastern Balkans-Western Anatolia. They certainly predate the 9th century.
      Last edited by Astrit; 10-20-2009, 01:39 AM.

      Comment

      • Astrit
        Junior Member
        • Jul 2009
        • 28

        #63
        It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

        In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.


        The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors, the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #64
          Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

          'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Astrit
            Junior Member
            • Jul 2009
            • 28

            #65
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

            'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.
            Beseda would at first would seem closer to Biseda in Albanian which simply means conversation but the definitions do not match up.
            Last edited by Astrit; 10-20-2009, 03:15 AM.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #66
              That's interesting. I must go, but I will respond further later today.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • makedonin
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1668

                #67
                Originally posted by Astrit View Post
                It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

                In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.
                That is not what I read down from your quoted text!

                Originally posted by Astrit View Post

                The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors, the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine.
                If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word Besen plural Besni meaning wild, mad corresponds more to the Thracian Bessoi pronounce Bessi cause OI = long I.

                You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

                In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating Bessoi with the Albanian Besoj meaning to believe.


                How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?!
                Last edited by makedonin; 10-20-2009, 03:27 AM.
                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                Comment

                • slovenec zrinski
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 385

                  #68
                  beseda means word in the slovenian language.

                  Comment

                  • Astrit
                    Junior Member
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 28

                    #69
                    Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                    That is not what I read down from your quoted text!



                    If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word Besen plural Besni meaning wild, mad corresponds more to the Thracian Bessoi pronounce Bessi cause OI = long I.

                    You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

                    In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating Bessoi with the Albanian Besoj meaning to believe.


                    How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?!
                    In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known. It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


                    In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.
                    Last edited by Astrit; 10-20-2009, 04:37 AM.

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Astrit View Post
                      In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known.

                      It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


                      In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.
                      Well if you Macedonize Bessoi, you will also become Besoj, but it would mean rages, in plural and dialectical of course. The literal is Besovi for rages.

                      BUT that is not how it goes.

                      The whole problem about this is that the word Bessoi is given to us in Greek letters, as Βεσσοι .

                      The vocalization rule of the characters in the word are as follow:

                      Β > B
                      ε>e
                      σσ> s or sh
                      οι>long i


                      So the word would have been pronounced Besi or Beshi, which is far from Besoj in both, the Macedonian and Albanian case.
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • Bij
                        Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 905

                        #71
                        No, I am not Albanian. Unless there's something I dont know????????? I've just studied a bit of Italian.

                        I don't believe Macedonian and Italian are linguistically linked, I just think there are a few words (latin) we've borrowed from them.

                        and, like i said in my earlier post, they've named their fruit salad after us

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          #72
                          on aspect of latin apparentlyfrom old eutruscan is derived from ancient macedonian.
                          cest stoi kaj trust latin
                          ce stoi vo trust macedonian
                          everything stays in trust english
                          starri decisis latin
                          star reshenie macedonian
                          old decision english
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

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                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Astrit
                            SOM, a more proper way to say father in Albanian would be Ate
                            Ata also means father in Turkish, in addition to Baba. Same as Albanian. But the first word is interesting because it appears very close to European words such as Tato in Macedonian, Dad in English, etc. Not sure if they are related, but possible, if they are, then there is a case to support that Albanian used it before the Turks.

                            Astrit, the earliest Albanian writings are from the 15th century, what word did they use for father in that time?
                            Beseda would at first would seem closer to Biseda in Albanian which simply means conversation but the definitions do not match up.
                            I still think both come from Slavonic influence. In Church Slavonic Beseda can mean 'conversation, word, talk', while Besa in Albanian means 'pledge, word of honour', can you honestly say they that these words are not related? They seem pretty close to me.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              #74





                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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                              • TrueMacedonian
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 3810

                                #75

                                page 157
                                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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