Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8531

    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
    First I state my views. Then you say I'm not providing evidence for my views. Then I post links to evidence, albeit circumstanial and indirect, but evidence nonetheless, and then you say you don't care about the evidence for my views, and you now just want my views just in case of potential backtracking.

    What is more important: what I'm saying, or what the evidence says? I guess it all depends on what you find relevant at the current moment. I'm not saying anything different than what the evidence is saying, you have your answers. Multiple times, in multiple ways.
    I want to know your views on those specific questions because you have not stated them and because Gocka and RtG say that I have misinterpreted your views in general. So, do you care to at least quote where you have supposedly stated your views on those specific questions? If not, can you tell us your views on those specific questions? You have been very vague in the past, only to claim that you were misinterpreted or outright deny you even made certain statement, so I want to be sure I understand what you're saying.
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      For anyone actually interested in what is really happening in the Ukraine, as opposed to the simplistic explanations being thrown around on this forum and some sections of the media, I’ve prepared a short summary below. However, this should never act as a substitute for your own good old fashioned research. To get an understanding of the depth of the issues on the ground, it’s a good idea to go back to the beginning of the 19th century and make your way to the present crisis. At a minimum, you should at least go back to the collapse of the Soviet Union and Ukrainian independence. There are some very good books on the subject, though they are a pretty heavy read, so I’ve listed some interesting journal articles at the end which are much shorter, but still provide a relatively comprehensive analysis.

      I find the Ukraine particularly interesting because it has many parallels with Macedonia, particularly their historical and current experiences with resistance to the very existence of their identity, language and culture, forced assimilation programs and conflict over the cultural and political substance of their state.

      Yes, foreign influence is a factor. Multinational corporations have a strong interest in the region worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Foreign governments have geo-political interests in the region and many wars have been fought over Ukrainian territory for its strategic geographic position and its resources (agricultural and mineral). Yes, both corporations and foreign governments attempt to exert political, economic and social control over the Ukrainian people and their country. None of this is disputed. What is disputed, by most experts in the field, is the idea that these factors are the sole influence over the ongoing crisis in the Ukraine (which has been ongoing for decades and this current episode is a continuation of that conflict) and that they are the ultimate cause of the crisis in the Ukraine and that they will be able to resolve the crisis once their interests have been met.

      Obviously, multinational corporations and foreign governments are doing their best to take advantage of the situation and they have marriages of convenience with their favoured sides in the crisis, but these are only marriages of convenience and once the convenience is over, so too is the marriage. While both the Russian and American governments have been providing assistance to their respective sides, this has only been possible because there is a reason for which to accept this assistance on the part of the Ukrainians. If it were not for the deep ethnonational divisions, corruption and economic chaos, Ukrainians would have little reason to listen to foreigners telling them to overthrow their government or accept their assistance. Without these deep-seated issues no amount of foreign interference (aside from outright military invasion) could cause the crisis in the Ukraine. American, Russian and corporate influence is a peripheral attempt to obtain a favourable outcome at best (though, the Russian military intervention is not so peripheral) – its not a cause of the crisis, its not in control of the Ukrainian people’s actions and it won’t solve the crisis.

      The crisis in the Ukraine is essentially the result of four key issues (though there are other peripheral/related issues involved):

      1. Contested Ukrainian identity
      2. The struggle over the identity of the Ukrainian state
      3. The economic basket case
      4. Rampant corruption and nepotism


      Contested Ukrainian Identity

      In a nutshell, Ukrainian identity is highly contested. Ukrainians are basically divided into two groups – Ukrainian nationalists who claim Ukrainians have their own language and culture and are a separate and unique ethnic group and Russophile Ukrainians who, while identifying as Ukrainians, believe that they are really a subset of the Russian nation who speak a Russian dialect and have embraced Russian culture. Then there are actual ethnic Russians who largely side with the Russophile Ukrainians.

      This division is largely a result of Russian occupation and its implementation of forced assimilation programs over the past few centuries. Russia denied the very existence of Ukrainian identity, language and culture and for centuries banned any mention of them. Ukrainians were told they were ‘Little Russians’, taught Russian and imbued with Russian culture. Most Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine were effectively Russified and remain so. Ukrainians in Western Ukraine, being under the occupation of various other states, such as the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Romania before coming under Russian and Soviet occupation were able to more freely (in relative terms) develop their identity.

      There have always been ethnonationalist tensions between the two groups and these tensions have erupted into conflict a number of times. The current crisis is primarily a result of these ethnonationalist divisions.

      The Struggle Over the Identity of the Ukrainian State

      As a result of the ethnonationalist conflict noted above, the two groups have struggled over the identity of the state and who controls the state (much like our own struggle with the Albanians).

      Ukrainian nationalists say that the Ukraine should be the nation-state of the Ukrainian people, with the Ukrainian language as official and its primary purpose should be to protect Ukrainian culture and interests. Russophile Ukrainians have various ideas that conflict with this. These include:

      1. An autonomous eastern region with Russian as the official language;
      2. Russian as the official language throughout all of the Ukraine and the Ukraine basically serving as a second Russian state (like Kosovo); and
      3. Outright unification with Russia (which is supported by many ethnic Russians).

      The conflict over identity has naturally spilled into a conflict over control of the state and the identity of the state – Is the Ukraine a Ukrainian or Russian state?.

      The Struggle over control of the state between Ukrainian nationalists and Russophile Ukrainians is also a primary cause of the ongoing crisis.

      The Economic Basket Case

      I think this one is fairly self-explanatory. The Ukraine suffers from the same problems as most of Eastern Europe with high levels of unemployment and very little prospects for improvement. While this is not a primary cause of the ongoing crisis, it certainly adds fuel and attracts many disaffected people on both sides. It also helps radicalise some sections of the population.

      Rampant Corruption and Nepotism

      Another fairly self-explanatory one. Ukrainian politicians and bureaucrats are well known for their corruption and clientelism. The Ukrainian system is basically as dysfunctional as the Macedonian one, bribes are the norm, simple procedures are overly complicated and take too long, politicians generally support their own group and ignore the other etc. This causes even further tensions between groups as most would rather have their ‘own’ in power (regardless of the fact that they are just as corrupt and useless) because they may get more out of it as opposed to being completly ignored by the other side.

      This is another primary cause of the ongoing crisis.



      Stephen Shulman, “The contours of civic and ethnic national identification in Ukraine”, Europe-Asia Studies, Volume 56, Issue 1, 2004

      Stephen Shulman, “The cultural foundations of Ukrainian national identity”, Ethnic and Racial Studies, Volume 22, Issue 6, 1999

      Paul S. Piriea, “National identity and politics in Southern and Eastern Ukraine”, Europe-Asia Studies, Volume 48, Issue 7, 1996

      Taras Kuzioa, “National identity in independent Ukraine: An identity in transition”, Nationalism and Ethnic Politics, Volume 2, Issue 4, 1996

      Kataryna Wolczuk, “History, Europe and the ''national idea'': The ''official'' narrative of national identity in Ukraine”, Nationalities Papers: The Journal of Nationalism and Ethnicity, Volume 28, Issue 4, 2000
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        It doesn't look like the Crimean Tatars are cooperating with corporate America or corporate Russia...It seems (shock horror!!!) that they have their own interests in mind and will most probably act accordingly...

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...an-rule-crimea

        Tatar Sunni Muslims pose a threat to Russia's occupation of Crimea

        Pro-Ukrainian Islamic minority could mount a more organised resistance against Russian forces in Crimea peninsula

        Russia may be tightening its grip on Crimea, with little resistance to date, but they have yet to face the Crimean Tatar factor.

        There are 266,000 Crimean Tatars in Crimea, over 13% of the local population. They are Sunni Muslim, traditionally pro-Ukrainian, and much better organised than the local Ukrainians, who make up 23% of the population.

        A quick look at history tells you why: Stalin deported the Crimean Tatars en masse to Central Asia in 1944, and half of them died during or after the journey. They were only able to return after 1989; by which time their homes had gone and their culture had been erased.

        The Crimean Tatars are still economically marginalised, with constant tensions over land-squatting and 'irregular constructions' (shanty towns).

        But Crimea is their only home. Turkey hosts a large diaspora; but the peninsula was home to the Crimean Tatar Khanate from 1441 to 1783. The roots of Christianity in Crimea go back more than a thousand years; but the idea of Crimea as an ancient outpost of Orthodox Christianity is really only 160 years old, dating back to a programme of church-building to replace local mosques after the Crimean war of 1853-56.

        The Crimea that a young Leo Tolstoy saw during his army service was still Muslim in many parts.

        At rallies last month, the Crimean Tatars were chanting both "Allahu Akbar" in Arabic and "Glory to Ukraine" in Ukrainian. At the time, there was an outside chance of a Crimean regional government supported by the Crimean Tatars, some Ukrainians and local elites who resented the rule of Viktor Yanukovych's clique., which is why Russia then intervened to put its supporters in power instead.

        So in less than a week, the Crimean Tatars have gone from being heroes of the revolution to an isolated minority. Their leaders are advising them to stay indoors, but there are also reports of Tatars forming self-defence units.

        The Crimean Tatars have been well organised since the 1960s. They have their own would-be parliament, the Qurultay, which revamped its voting system last year after an internal debate on accountability, introducing some proportional representation.

        Most religious organisations belong to the allied Spiritual Directorate of Muslims of Crimea (DUMK), which has close links to official Islam in Turkey. Radical Islam exists, but has largely been kept to the fringes by the DUMK to date.

        Now the Crimean Tatars fear these organisations will be suppressed in a Russian-controlled Crimea. Since Yanukovych's election in 2010, the Qurultay and its smaller executive body, the Mejlis, have been squeezed out of official organs and forced to compete with new radical parties, allegedly sponsored by the authorities in both Kiev and Moscow.

        The Mejlis may be replaced by the small number of pro-Russian Crimean Tatars, who have been dubbed the "Kazany", because they are always saying life is better for the Volga Tatars in Kazan, capital of the Russian Republic of Tatarstan.

        The veteran leader of the Mejlis, Mustafa Cemiloğlu, has recently retired after a long career advocating peaceful protest. His successor, Refat Chubarov, follows a similar line.

        But since 2010, there has been a rising number of clashes over land, the desecration of graves and monuments, and fights over market trading rights with local mafia groups. The seventieth anniversary of the 1944 deportation will fall this May. The idea had been to hold an international conference on the Crimean Tatar problem; now it looks likely to be the key flashpoint.

        If the Crimean Tatar problem explodes, the blowback for Moscow will be immense. Russia's relationship with Turkey is already under threat. Its reputation as a friend of Islam in the Middle East will be damaged.

        Russia has millions of Muslims of its own, the vast majority of whom are Sunni, including next door in the North Caucasus. Historically, the Crimean Tatars had close ties with the Circassians, who were driven from the Sochi area in 1864. And one reason why Putin has invested so much in backing Assad's Alawite regime in Syria against the Sunni majority was his fear of Sunni unrest at home.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Big Bad Sven
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 1528

          "Maidan Snipers Fired at both Protesters and Police" - Leaked Phone Call EU and Estonian FM

          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


          These are the people who want to take over Ukraine, dubious ties to neo-nazi groups, killing and torturing citizens, destroying russian monuments and statues

          The russians are no saints, but at least they achieved their goals with firing a shot.

          Comment

          • Big Bad Sven
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1528

            Originally posted by Toska View Post
            Your all wrong America has pushed this from day one, they want Russia surrounded by the American Missile Defense Shield, defense or more like attack shield, it was installed in Poland and Czech so it "would stop likely attacks from Iran" but everyone knew this was complete bollocks, id love to see what America would do if Russians went to Canada and started spreading their propaganda too the Canadians or Mexicans or said we have to build missile silos in Mexico to protect Europe from missiles being shot from Brazil, this has nothing to do with corporations or democracy its all for America to have their AMDS at Russia's doorstep
            Exactly

            WW3 nearly happened when the soviets tried to put missiles in Cuba but they stopped this. What did the west do after this? Put missiles in Turkey lol

            USA/EU/NATO has been pissing russia off in the past 20 years by simply turning all eastern european/central european countries in the western sphere of influence, trying to do the same in central asia, putting bases and missiles in czech republic and poland, and now they are basically right at the door step of Russia in Georgia and now Ukraine.

            Now the west are acting like spoilt children because russia has access to the Mediterranean through Syria - basically playing the same game as the west.

            Comment

            • Big Bad Sven
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 1528

              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
              You do realise that the Russophile Ukrainians are very much like our own Srbomani and saying Ukraine should be invaded as punishment for supposedly treating them badly (of which I haven't really seen any widespread evidence) is very much similar to saying Macedonia should be invaded by Serbia as punishment for claims that its improper treatment of Srbomani factions in Macedonia...?
              In recent times Ukraine passed a law to remove Russian as the second official language of Ukraine. Keep in mind almost half of the population in Ukraine speak Russian. Compare that to Macedonia were only 20% of the people speak Albanian yet there was a civil war from the shiptars backed by the US/EU, to make Albanian the second official language of Macedonia.

              Ukraine has been reducing the number of schools that teach Russian as the official language. In 1989, there were 4633 schools where Russian was the main language of instruction, and by 2001 this number fell to 2001 schools or 11.8% of the total in the country. Which is a bit strange since almost half of the country speaks Russian, and almost 20% of the population is ethnically Russian.

              You also have Russian statues of soldiers who battled Nazi's in WW2 or Napolean and other pro-russian monuments are being take down, supposedly the west Ukrainians were smuggling weapons into the Crimea, supposedly a lot of pro-nazi imagery and protests etc. There is a leak of western politicnas saying that the ‘maiden’ group has been using sniper riffles on citezens and police. I am reading stuff on the internet how these guys burned civilians alive with Molotov cock tails. I don’t support the invasion of Ukraine but when you do things like that to Russian people what do you expect Russia to do?

              Btw in places like Latvia and Estonia were Russians make up almost half of the population, their human rights are garbage tier level and don’t get the same special treatment as the shiptars in Macedonia. Its blatant hypocrisy by the west and goes back to my original message that things like human rights are a scam and only benefit people with backing and power.

              In regards to Rusophiles being the same as srboman, I don’t think so. Serbians only arrived in Macedonia in the late 1800’s, mainly stated their srbonization during the Balkan wars and then first Yugoslavia. Macedonians and serbians differ greatly to each other in appearance, culture, and the language is very different.
              Russians have been in Ukraine since the time of Kiev Russ, Russians and Orthodox Ukrainians look like the same people, their language is almost the same, culture is the same, and almost all feel that are Russian.

              Its only the catholic Ukranians that feel that they are different from Russians, which strangely started to happen when they became part of the Polish and then Austro-Hungarian empire.
              So I think the comparison between srbomans and russophone is not there, if anything this is pretty similar to what Serbia did to Bosnia and kosov when supposedly serbs were being attacked.

              Keep in mind I was talking about Putin “defending” ethnic Russians in Ukraine (20% of the population), not Rusophiles/pro-russian ukrainianians (almost half of the country). Keep in mind I think Putin wanting to ‘defend’ ethnic Russians in Ukraine is low on his list on why he is in Ukraine and it’s a weak excuse, but it has much more meaning and strength when compard to America’s reason of invading Libya e.g. “we want to spread democracy to the poor muslims, Gaddaffi is working with dem der terrorists to attack US of A”
              In the end of the day what the USA did in regards to Kosovo and with Macedonia is coming back to haunt them. The west ripped Kosovo away from Serbia simply because the shiptars were a majority that wanted to break away. Now Russia is doing the same with its Russian population with Georgia and now Ukraine.

              And just like how the west forced Macedonia to become a ‘multi-ethnic’ state and make Albanian the second official people, the same will one day happen in Latvia, Lithuania etc.

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Looks like an evil Ukrainian corporation will be investing $200 million in Macedonia and creating 400-500 jobs. Obviously they only want our copper and the profits they will obtain from stripping us of our unused natural resources which are just sitting there underground is nothing more than blatant exploitation by the international corporate Zionist One World Government US/EU/NATO alliance regardless of how many taxes they pay and the royalties received by the Macedonian state...unless Yanukovich is reinstated and then we'll welcome our comrades with open arms.

                Ukrainian Co. to invest $200m in Macedonia's copper processing

                A new investment for copper processing is being launched in Macedonia by the Ukrainian company "Konstantinovsky Plant of Metallurgical Equipment". In-depth geological exploration of three sites, two in Valandovo and one in Staro Nagoricane in the Kumanovo region, is planned to be conducted initially. Depending on the start of exploring one of the sites, there will be a plant for manufacturing copper, cathode, copper pipes and copper wires through electrolysis.

                This was stated Wednesday by the director of the Directorate for Technological and Industrial Development Zones, Viktor Mizo, after a meeting between Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and the company's management.

                "The company has considered different locations in Europe, South America and Africa. They have chosen Macedonia because they plan on not only exploiting ore, but also launching a full vertical integration of copper production, manufacturing of copper cathodes, wires and pipes. From 400 to 500 jobs could be created based on the whole process in the three mines and the plant. The investment is estimated at more than 200 million dollars in the coming period," Mizo said.

                The exploitation process, he added, is expected to be completed by year's end followed by the construction of a plant nearby the mine. The plant, first of its kind in Macedonia, will kick off its operations in late 2015 or early 2016. The copper products will be sold on markets worldwide.

                The investment comes as a result of a 10-month effort based on contacts by the Macedonian ambassador in Kiev, according to Mizo.

                Gennadiy Sichov, the company's vice president, said that thorough geological exploration of three sites, two in Valandovo and one in Staro Nagoricane, would be carried out first.

                "Today, we are going to sign a contract with a Macedonian company, which will conduct the geological exploration. By the end of the year, the form of this new enterprise will be defined," he noted.

                After taking into consideration many sites around the world, Konstantinovsky Plant of Metallurgical Equipment has picked Macedonia because "here they felt the best business investment climate".
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  Tom, I think you're summary is solid and you're not wrong. However, maybe the miscommunication, or misinterpretation, is that I was solely discussing the aspect of the crisis that is dealing with US and Russia's involvement in Ukraine. A major cause, or a primary reason for, US/Russia involvement is control and access to Ukrainian resources and markets, and the benefits of this are gained by multi-national corporations, and their influence in American and Russian policy are driving their involvement.

                  I don't question that the conflict is essentially based around internal conflicts. But this is what the US does: they take advantage of internal conflicts. And there are plenty of them. Thus, the conflict is no longer simply an internal one.

                  But I hope you're not referring to me about the one world government. Those are not my beliefs. I also don't think that most corporations are evil. For example, there are a lot of non-profit corporations (though sum of those are sinister). There are also a lot of small business owners that incorporate to have legal protections. Of course I have qualms with the entire political-corporate system, and the environmental, social and cultural effects of corporate domination of resources, but that problem is also caused by an apathetic, over-consumerist and ignorant citizenry.

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    Meanwhile, Crimea votes to join Russia...





                    Reuters) - Crimea's parliament voted to join Russia on Thursday and its Moscow-backed government set a referendum within 10 days on the decision in a dramatic escalation of the crisis over the Ukrainian Black Sea peninsula.

                    The sudden acceleration of moves to bring Crimea, which has an ethnic Russian majority and has effectively been seized by Russian forces, formally under Moscow's rule came as European Union leaders gathered for an emergency summit to seek ways to pressure Russia to back down and accept mediation.

                    The Crimean parliament voted unanimously "to enter into the Russian Federation with the rights of a subject of the Russian Federation". The vice premier of Crimea, home to Russia's Black Sea military base in Sevastopol, said a referendum on the status would take place on March 16.

                    The announcement, which diplomats said could not have been made without Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval, raised the stakes in the most serious east-west confrontation since the end of the Cold War.

                    Far from seeking a diplomatic way out, Putin appears to have chosen to create facts on the ground before the West can agree on more than token action against him.

                    EU leaders had been set to warn but not sanction Russia over its military intervention after Moscow rebuffed Western diplomatic efforts to persuade it to pull forces in Crimea, with a population of about 2 million, back to their bases. It was not immediately clear what impact the Crimean moves would have.

                    European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said in a Twitter message: "We stand by a united and inclusive #Ukraine."

                    French President Francois Hollande told reporters on arrival at the summit: "There will be the strongest possible pressure on Russia to begin lowering the tension and in the pressure there is, of course, eventual recourse to sanctions."

                    The new Ukrainian government has declared the referendum illegal and opened a criminal investigation against Crimean Prime Minister Sergei Askyonov, who was appointed by the region's parliament last week. The Ukrainian government does not recognize his authority or that of the parliament.

                    A Crimean parliament official said voters will be asked two questions: should Crimea be part of the Russian Federation and should Crimea return to an earlier constitution (1992) that gave the region more autonomy?

                    "If there weren't constant threats from the current illegal Ukrainian authorities, maybe we would have taken a different path," deputy parliament speaker Sergei Tsekov told reporters outside the parliament building in Crimea's main city of Simferopol.

                    "I think there was an annexation of Crimea by Ukraine, if we are going to call things by their name. Because of this mood and feeling we took the decision to join Russia. I think we will feel much more comfortable there."

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                      Tom, I think you're summary is solid and you're not wrong. However, maybe the miscommunication, or misinterpretation, is that I was solely discussing the aspect of the crisis that is dealing with US and Russia's involvement in Ukraine. A major cause, or a primary reason for, US/Russia involvement is control and access to Ukrainian resources and markets, and the benefits of this are gained by multi-national corporations, and their influence in American and Russian policy are driving their involvement.

                      I don't question that the conflict is essentially based around internal conflicts. But this is what the US does: they take advantage of internal conflicts. And there are plenty of them. Thus, the conflict is no longer simply an internal one.
                      In this respect I agree with you completely.

                      Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                      But I hope you're not referring to me about the one world government. Those are not my beliefs. I also don't think that most corporations are evil. For example, there are a lot of non-profit corporations (though sum of those are sinister). There are also a lot of small business owners that incorporate to have legal protections. Of course I have qualms with the entire political-corporate system, and the environmental, social and cultural effects of corporate domination of resources, but that problem is also caused by an apathetic, over-consumerist and ignorant citizenry.
                      I wasn't referring to you or anyone else, I was merely being cheeky about conspiracy theories in general. I don't think large corporations are perfect. Certainly they have undue influence over government (though I do think their views in decision-making are still important because they hold industry expertise). It also concerns me that some large corporations have caused considerable damage to both the environment and human health. One relevant example for Australia is the idiotically large amounts of asbestos used in the residential and commercial construction industry over a very long period of time. Most Australian homes still have asbestos products in them (it wasn't officially banned until 2004, but was generally out of use after 1990) and one must be very careful when renovating or having contractors do work.

                      On the other hand, large corporations also create significant wealth, not only for wealthy 'elites', but ordinary families as well. They do this through job creation and investment opportunities. I read recently that in 2008, 57 million American households owned stocks/shares in public companies. From the figures I've seen, there are about 115 million households in the US. That means about 50 per cent of American households derive some income from public companies, in addition to the people they employ (though there's obviously probably some crossover here).

                      Another positive about large corporations/companies is that they do invest in communities. I know that a recent survey in the US estimated that corporations donated about $19 billion in cash and products to charities. That's not much compared to how much they actually make, but its still $19 billion more than they had to give. I'm not sure about American companies (though I suspect it may be the same), but many Australian companies (such as mining companies) also invest in infrastructure like roads, rail, seaports and airports, but also community housing, parks and other facilities. The transport infrastructure is mainly to service their own needs, but it is also used by the economy more widely and the community.

                      We shouldn't forget the revenue they generate for government coffers (through taxation) either. I'm not sure how much tax the Federal and State governments collect from corporations, but I suspect it would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars. This is used for education, health, infrastructure and yes, bombing foreign countries. But without that corporate wealth, western countries would not enjoy the level of living standards that they do.
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        I wasn't referring to you or anyone else, I was merely being cheeky about conspiracy theories in general. I don't think large corporations are perfect. Certainly they have undue influence over government (though I do think their views in decision-making are still important because they hold industry expertise). It also concerns me that some large corporations have caused considerable damage to both the environment and human health. One relevant example for Australia is the idiotically large amounts of asbestos used in the residential and commercial construction industry over a very long period of time. Most Australian homes still have asbestos products in them (it wasn't officially banned until 2004, but was generally out of use after 1990) and one must be very careful when renovating or having contractors do work.

                        On the other hand, large corporations also create significant wealth, not only for wealthy 'elites', but ordinary families as well. They do this through job creation and investment opportunities. I read recently that in 2008, 57 million American households owned stocks/shares in public companies. From the figures I've seen, there are about 115 million households in the US. That means about 50 per cent of American households derive some income from public companies, in addition to the people they employ (though there's obviously probably some crossover here).

                        Another positive about large corporations/companies is that they do invest in communities. I know that a recent survey in the US estimated that corporations donated about $19 billion in cash and products to charities. That's not much compared to how much they actually make, but its still $19 billion more than they had to give. I'm not sure about American companies (though I suspect it may be the same), but many Australian companies (such as mining companies) also invest in infrastructure like roads, rail, seaports and airports, but also community housing, parks and other facilities. The transport infrastructure is mainly to service their own needs, but it is also used by the economy more widely and the community.

                        We shouldn't forget the revenue they generate for government coffers (through taxation) either. I'm not sure how much tax the Federal and State governments collect from corporations, but I suspect it would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars. This is used for education, health, infrastructure and yes, bombing foreign countries. But without that corporate wealth, western countries would not enjoy the level of living standards that they do.
                        There's a lot I can say about this (both in agreement and disagreement) but it would be taking away from the topic more than we have already.


                        Meanwhile, two interesting articles on Ukraine:

                        Ukraine Crisis is a Buying Opportunity for Russian Energy Giants

                        Unrest in the Crimea sent Russia's energy stocks plummeting. Here's why you oughtn't miss this chance to get into Russia on the cheap.



                        Ukraine Protesters Hired Kiev Snipers

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Obama just stated that a Crimea referendum on whether they want to be independent, with Ukraine, or join Russia would violate international law.

                          I find it quite depressing that people of a specific region choosing their own future is considered to be, or is perceived to be, illegal.

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            just heard Russian news ,Russian parliament voted that the crimea is part of Russia.So war will be inevitable.
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

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                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                              Obama just stated that a Crimea referendum on whether they want to be independent, with Ukraine, or join Russia would violate international law.

                              I find it quite depressing that people of a specific region choosing their own future is considered to be, or is perceived to be, illegal.
                              I wonder if it will be illegal if the albanians in Macedonia choose to do it, and was it illegal when they wanted to break up Yugoslavia.

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                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Originally posted by George S. View Post
                                just heard Russian news ,Russian parliament voted that the crimea is part of Russia.So war will be inevitable.
                                I don't think they Ukrainians will fight over Crimea - its not central to their territorial identity. Even many 'Greater Ukranian' nationalists leave it out of their maps and definitions of Ukraine (while claiming Russian territory up to the Caspian Sea). The potential resistance to look out for will be the Crimean Tartars.

                                The other problem with Ukrainian resistance is that its military reflects the rest of the counrty - its divided between Ukrainians and Russophiles and that's why so many of them have defected to the Russians. Its virtually a worthless force and I imagine that it will be restructed after this (if they're smart).

                                I would have liked to see Ukraine fight back because it would have destroyed the myth of the Russian military, which is a basket case. Even though the Ukrainian military is much smaller, they are still large enough to draw the Russians into a stalemate simply becuase the Russian armed forces are chaotic.

                                Lesson for everyone - don't give up your nuclear weapons on the hopes that others give a F about your country.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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