Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia?

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  • Bratot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2855

    Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia?

    Turkish and Chinese militaries recently conducted a joint aerial exercise in central Anatolia, the first such exercise involving the air forces of NATO member Turkey and China.

    The joint exercise was part of Turkey’s Anatolian Eagle maneuvers, which have so far been carried out jointly with US, other NATO countries and Israel. They took place sometime this month in the central Anatolian province of Konya, where Anatolian Eagle maneuvers traditionally take place. Turkish F-16s and Chinese SU-27s and Russian-made MIG-29s took part in the joint exercise, staging a mock dogfight in central Anatolian airspace. The exercise comes ahead of a planned visit by Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao to Turkey next month, which officials say will boost relations to a new level. The two sides are expected to sign several agreements on economic and cultural cooperation during the Chinese prime minister’s visit.

    Turkey has recently modified its security policy, removing neighbors from a list of countries considered as threats to national security.

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    Thursday, September 30, 2010
    ISTANBUL - Daily News with wires

    The Turkish and Chinese air forces secretly participated in a military drill in Konya as part of the “Anatolian Eagle” war games, prompting a reaction from Washington, daily Taraf reported Thursday.

    Taraf based its report on Turkish and Western military sources, who confirmed that the military drills took place but did not state the exact dates of the games or what kind of aircraft were involved.

    Washington has requested information on the matter from Turkey, the report added.

    Last year, Ankara excluded Israel from the war games, reportedly because of political tension that arose with Tel Aviv after the Israeli-led war in Gaza in January 2009.

    The Turkish government decided to freeze all military exercises with Israel in response to the killing by Israeli commandos of nine people on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May. Last year, Ankara excluded Tel Aviv from the same exercise, which prompted fellow NATO members the United States and Italy to withdraw from the drills. Turkey had to conduct the exercise on a national instead of an international level.

    Since the early 2000s, Turkey, a NATO member, has conducted war games in the central Anatolian province of Konya with other members of the alliance or non-member friendly nations. But this year was the first time a military drill was conducted with China.

    The U.S. administration reportedly contacted the Turkish foreign and defense ministries and asked why the drill was conducted and what kind of maneuvers were practiced.



    Going before:

    25 March 2009,

    Turkey, China to raise military cooperation
    Turkish Military Academies Commander Gen. Hasan Aksay who is in China, said Turkey and China should consider conducting joint military exercises: "Our talks should not remain limited to educational activities. We should think about joint military exercises."

    In addition, China's Deputy Chief of General Staff Gen. Ge Zhenfeng said they expect to receive more military students from Turkey; since 1985, China has received 18 military delegations consisting of 200 people from Turkey. Turkey received 14 Chinese military delegations with more than 330 representatives in the same period, officials said.
    Zhenfeng also said that he admires the Turkish military, "With its educational achievements and its combat capabilities, the Turkish military has made a deep impression on my mind," and added the Turkish military was exceptionally "disciplined." He also expressed his country's gratitude for Turkey's "one China" policy.

    Aksay is expected to visit Shanghai today and leave China tomorrow.




    China And Turkey Increase Their Military Cooperation.

    What Is Behind It?


    Martin McCauley writes: Last month, General Hasan Aksay, commander of the Turkish military academies, paid a visit to China.This was not the first visit of a high ranking Turkish military official. There have been 18 delegations since 1985 and 14 Chinese military visits to Turkey. General Aksay was not senior enough to launch any new initiative. However, some observers think there was to his trip than meets the eye. Military collaboration has been steadily increasing during the last 15 years.

    Turkey was a member of the UN force during the Korean War (1950-53). Fighting was ferocious and over 25,000 Turks saw service there. Casualties were high: over 700 men were killed and over 2,100 wounded. As a result of the conflict Turkey became a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in October 1951 while the war was still going on.

    The Korean conflict has left its mark to this day. China is still less favourably portrayed than other countries in East Asia. Diplomatic relations were only established in the early 1970s and military contact began a decade later.

    During the first half of the 1990s, the United States criticised Turkey for using US weapons in its struggle with Kurdish separatists. Arms embargos followed. The result was that Turkey turned to China, among others, for arms. Ankara signed its first deal in 1997 for the supply of rockets. Turkey then began to produce rockets based on Chinese designs under licence. Then surface to surface missiles were manufactured.

    One estimate is that purchases of Chinese arms between 1998 and 2007 only amounted to about 1 per cent of Turkey’s total arms purchases.

    Beijing is keen that Ankara participates in the war against terrorism. The primary target are the Uyghurs who are Muslim and want greater autonomy in Xinjiang province. As a Turkic people they are to be found also in Turkey as are some of the leaders of the Xinjiang movement. Demonstrations and violence against Chinese personnel in Turkey eventually led to the signing of a Sino-Turkish agreement on military cooperation in February 2000. This included mutual opposition to separatist movements (Uyghurs in China and Kurds in Turkey).

    One of the goals of Chinese military intelligence in Turkey is to penetrate Uyghur organisations with moles and sleepers. Beijing has had some success as there is often conflict among Uyghurs. These organisations are aware that there are collaborators within their ranks and attempts to purge them have led to uproar.

    Chinese foreign intelligence also monitors the activities of Falung Gong, a religious movement which Beijing has perceived as a threat since the late 1990s.

    China is also concerned about the re-emergence of Pan-Turkism. Turkic peoples stretch from Sakha-Yakutia, in Siberia, to Tatarstan and Bashkortostan in the Urals to Central Asia, Azerbaijan (there are also Azeris in northern Iran) to Turkey. The Uyghurs, Kazakhs and other ethnic groups in Xinjiang province are also Turkic. All Turkic groups are Muslim and predominantly Sunni.

    Ironically some Turkish politicians and military officers regard China as an alternative model to the United States and the European Union. The ‘Eurasian’ faction in the military is right wing and anti-Islamist. The present Turkish government has forced some of them to retire.

    During General Aksay’s visit to China it was agreed to increase military cooperation. Joint military exercises and training are envisaged as are joint military production projects. The Chinese and Turks have certainly a lot to discuss. Ankara regards China as a rising military power. Regarding military matters, Turkey will soon have a Chinese option as well as an American.



    What do you think of it, don't you agree that Macedonia should follow the example of Turkey in relation to China and look as alternative for NATO?

    What would Macedonia gain or lose if we change our "national priority" of being part of NATO but instead alliance with Turkey, China and probably Russia?

    I could include in also strong ties with India, Japan, Brazil, Poland, Ukraine, Belorussia, Czech, Slovakia, Croatia, Israel etc.
    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    #2
    I feel we should look elsewhere. Especially Militarily.
    You watch the european (EU) and US scum take notice of what we want afterwards. Nothing like snubbing someone with pride such as US and let them eat shit.

    So i say yes to alliance with China, Turkey, Russia and why not, throw Iran in for a shit stir.
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • julie
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 3869

      #3
      Macedonia has absolutely nothing to lose with forming an alliance with China, Turkey and Russia, as Bill points out, it will erode US "hold" over RoM, and will give Macedonia more autonomy, and security with financial investments as well. And US will be shitting some big bricks with an alliance with Chine especially. They will want to be Macedonia's new best friend then
      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

      Comment

      • fyrOM
        Banned
        • Feb 2010
        • 2180

        #4
        A touch of Tito…spit spit…playing the usa against the soviets. When you are stuck in the middle sometimes all you have got left is to play the middle game. Just remember your history then remember neither is your best friend.

        Comment

        • julie
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 3869

          #5
          US are the antiChrist when it comes to the sovereignty of Macedonia. If we are to "remember" history, then are you also talking of Ottomon Rule? Because I would rather have a strong alliance with Turkey, the actions of the US can speak for themselves when it comes to Macedonia the last 20 years. China will be a force to be reckoned with , and US is heavily in debt to China. Money talks. And when the money gets asked for and Macedonia has alliance with China? US can jump. Through hoops. Big ones. They shove their noses where it doesnt belong, have destabilised the region and caused so much fracas they deserve what they will have coming to them
          "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

          Comment

          • fyrOM
            Banned
            • Feb 2010
            • 2180

            #6
            Julie Well I was referring to the soviets aka Russians vs. usa. Turkey is a different situation. They know Macedonia and Turkey can get along well with each other and both face the usa as a frenemmy.

            China wants in on the eu market via a friendly non western Europe country that they can get along with and Macedonia fits that picture. The Chinese have already said if RoM gets in the eu they will build a computer manufacturing plant there. The Chinese want to do good business and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing good business but ofcourse business goes good with a friendly country with a capable…at least the new generation are supposed to be…and not too expensive workforce.

            Comment

            • julie
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 3869

              #7
              ah, I misinterpreted OM. The Russkies!
              actually its quite a potently wonderful little combination
              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                #8
                Macedonia doesn’t have a problem being friends with china anyway but it is also nice if you can do good business with your friends. Interest with china is and should be on Macedonia’s priority list.

                The influence of usa on Macedonia is questionable in a number of key areas. I think the usa tries to shore up support for themselves but very much on their terms which often come across as disrespectful and if someone disrespects you it puts their motivations towards you into question. Could it be the usa are going mad realising their place in the world is slipping.

                Analyst: US is Practically Owned by China



                Thursday, 30 September 2010
                The US supremacy as the top world economy will end sooner than many people believe, so gold is a better investment than the dollar despite it hitting a new record, Tom Winnifrith, CEO at financial services firm Rivington Street Holdings, told media Monday.

                Gold hit a new record high Monday and silver rose to another 30-year peak as investors were worried about the dollar weakening further after the Federal Reserve hinted at more quantitative easing last week.

                The US trade deficit and debt continue to grow and the authorities are reluctant to address the problem, preferring to print money, Winnifrith said.

                "America is practically owned by China," he said.

                He reminded of the fact that in 1900, sterling was the world's reserve currency but by 1948, that was no longer the case as the British Empire collapsed.

                "America is doing what Britain did," Winnifrith said. "America spends much more than it can afford and it's not addressing the issue."

                In 1832, China and India were the world's two largest economies and by 2032, they will regain that status, he predicted.

                "The 200 years when Britain and the US were the top two economies were an aberration and that will change," Winnifrith said.

                "The decline of empires has happened much faster than folks think. I believe that gold will be a far better bet in 20 years than the dollar," he added.

                Comment

                • Bratot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2855

                  #9
                  Турција планира да го лансира својот прв сателит за собирање на разузнавачки информации во 2012. година, изјави турскиот премиер Реџеп Таип Ердоган
                  source

                  Turkey plans to launch its first satellite for intelligence gathering in 2012, said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

                  TURKISH AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES
                  Founded in 1973, TAI is a company that has a voice in the aviation and space industry, cooperating with multinational companies as well as producing original products.


                  useful links:










                  With the production of "Anka" after the U.S. and Israel, Turkey became the third country in the world which produces unmanned aircraft.

                  Last edited by Bratot; 10-07-2010, 01:15 AM.
                  The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                  Comment

                  • Prolet
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 5241

                    #10
                    This is a good analysis by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan

                    Erdogan: Greece's Imaginary Enemies Cost them their country

                    Wednesday, 06 October 2010

                    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan yesterday criticized Greece’s out of control spending on defense, arguing that this primarily contributed to the country’s debt crisis, and said that Turkey should avoid the Greek example.

                    “For years, they spent whatever money they had and didn't have on weapons. But to protect themselves against whom? And how did this benefit them?” Erdogan told an audience at the Piri Reis Maritime University in Istanbul.

                    “When you spend all that money, you mortgage your future. This was the heavy price our neighbor paid for creating imaginary enemies,” Erdogan said. “We must not make the same mistake,” added the premier who is to visit Athens on October 22 for a summit on sustainable development.

                    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #11
                      With the production of "Anka" after the U.S. and Israel, Turkey became the third country in the world which produces unmanned aircraft.
                      Actually it`second in the world cuz US and Israeli engineers did first one together but Turkey did it without getting any help from them. Already, since Gaza flotilla incident, Turkey halted all joint military operations with Israel.

                      It`s the first fruit of our campaign called "Return to your homeland" by the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey. There was 100s of Turkish scientists working in NASA and several other institutions in USA. They were immigrated to USA at 1990s but they are returning to Turkey. For example only last month, about 60 Turkish scientists and scholars returned to Turkey from USA and France to work in our own institutions.





                      Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                      This is a good analysis by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan

                      Erdogan: Greece's Imaginary Enemies Cost them their country
                      Germans and French was giving some amount of free money to Greece and then, they were getting their money back from them by selling military equipments. With this way, they were rising Greece`s debt to them by securing it`s vassal position in the future and contributing the development of their own military engineering and manufacturing companies at the same time. To be able to realize this, they needed to create a Turkish bugaboo upon Greek people. This was also profitable for Greek politicians(already there aren't many of them) cuz Turkish bugaboo also makes Papandreu and/or Karamanlis to get more votes in the elections.

                      This was some kind of downward spiral for them. It was bad for regular Greek people but VERY GOOD for EU and Greek politicians.

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #12
                        Greece is spending all that money on defence against nobody except it's paranoia.All that money has been wasted not only on defence but on domestic matters.To say it's stupid is an understatement as these morons squandered 200 billion euros !
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Onur
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2389

                          #13
                          It seems that Israeli people are worried about our cooperation with China. An article from Haaretz, Israeli media;


                          Growing ties between Turkey, China, Iran worry Israel and U.S

                          Turkey held military drill with China, after canceling with Israel; cooperation also reflected in weapons deals, with Iran buying from China mainly missile technology.


                          The United States and Israel are watching with concern the growing military cooperation among Turkey, China and Iran, especially following a joint Turkish-Chinese air-force exercise last week.

                          Until two years ago Israel was Turkey's main partner for air combat training.

                          In 2001 the Turkish air force inaugurated a tactical air warfare center in Konya with Israel and the United States.

                          Until 2008 the Israel Air Force was a frequent guest in Turkey's sky and a regular participant in the country's big annual exercise, Anatolian Eagle.

                          In the wake of Operation Cast Lead and the subsequent deterioration of bilateral relations Turkey last year revoked Israel's participation in the maneuvers. The United States decided not to take part in the exercise this year because of that decision. A number of other NATO members followed suit.

                          Turkey replaced the Israel Air Force with its Chinese counterpart. China sent Sukhoi SU-27 fighter aircraft and pilots to train with Turkey's F-16 fighters. In the past these exercises were held in relatively openness, but last week they were held covertly, with only a brief report appearing in the Turkish media after the exercise.

                          The West has been watching the changes in the Chinese army's structure, and especially the long-range naval and aerial exercises that indicate Beijing's intention to acquire the ability to conduct warfare far from China's borders.

                          The Chinese are also aggressively pursuing cyber warfare capabilities, employing some 60,000 hackers at it, according to foreign intelligence reports.

                          The developing ties among Turkey, Iran and China are also reflected in weapons deals, with Iran buying from China mainly missile technology.

                          The C-802 antiship missile fired by Hezbollah in the Second Lebanon War at the Israel Navy's Hanit missile boat was manufactured in Iran with Chinese technology.

                          China has also developed a surface-to-surface rocket-launching system together with Turkey. China's Prime Minister Wen Jiabao is due to visit Ankara this month and to sign several bilateral cooperation agreements.

                          Turkey and China are also involved in projects to build oil pipelines from Iran.

                          Another reason for the close relations between the two states is that China, as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, has been in the forefront of opposition to imposing harsher sanctions on Iran in connection to the Islamic state's nuclear program.


                          * Published 07.10.2010

                          http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...d-u-s-1.317583


                          Actually, current situation between Israel and Turkey saddens me cuz we never had any problem with them throughout history. Even during the last years of Ottoman Empire and first years of new Turkey they were fully supporting us. This basically makes them the only supportive minority among us during our dark times. Already ~10% of current Israel citizens are the Jews who gone from Turkey and most of them speaks Turkish. First two Israeli PMs in 1950s was ex-Turkish Jews too. We always fully cooperated with them in developing military technology, Jewish and Turkish engineers was always working together here.

                          But it looks like that current dark clouds between us wont disappear unless both ruling parties in Israel and Turkey changes.

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #14
                            Chinese premier is in Turkey atm and today, both PMs announced that both Turkey and China will abandon using US dollars currency in bilateral relations between them and they gonna use Turkish lira and Chinese yuan from now on. Thats quite interesting news!

                            Also, they agreed on construction of a railway for super fast trains between China and Turkey, passing by Turkic states and Iran on the road to revive the ancient trade route between east and west called "Silk road".





                            Turkey, China to use lira/yuan for bilateral trade

                            Turkey and China will use their currencies, the lira and the yuan, in bilateral relations Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday after holding talks with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

                            Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said "In all of our relations, we have agreed to use the lira and yuan," Erdogan told reporters.

                            Oct 8 (Reuters)

                            http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSIST00727220101008

                            Turkey targets $50 bln China trade in next 5 years

                            Turkey aims to raise trade with China to $50 billion from a current $17 billion over the next five years, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday at a joint news conference with visiting Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

                            Erdogan also said energy cooperation on nuclear power will form part of the burgeoning trade with China. He said the two countries had agreed to use their lira and yuan currencies for bilateral trade.

                            Oct 8 (Reuters)

                            http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSIST00727120101008




                            But there was a quite big protestations in both Istanbul and Ankara against Chinese delegation because of the Chinese oppression to Uyghur Turkic community in China.

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #15
                              What could I add to this, we could only benefit from the both countries.
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

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