"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

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  • tchaiku
    Member
    • Nov 2016
    • 786

    #91
    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
    Chalkias is not a Vlach surname. It's a profession surname (coppersmith).
    I mean it in general not just Vlachs. I am not talking about genetic purity but I find it really unbelievable that majority of the population was hellenized artificially
    Last edited by tchaiku; 03-31-2017, 03:47 PM.

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    • Redsun
      Member
      • Jul 2013
      • 409

      #92
      Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
      I mean it in general not just Vlachs. I am not talking about genetic purity but I find it really unbelievable that majority of the population was hellenized artificially
      What is the difference between "hellenized" and "hellenized artificially"?

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      • tchaiku
        Member
        • Nov 2016
        • 786

        #93
        Originally posted by Redsun View Post
        What is the difference between "hellenized" and "hellenized artificially"?
        Hellenized artificially means being forced to abandon their native language in such way to believe that they are the decadents of Pericles, and the other one refers to being culturally assimilated by desire or conquest.
        Last edited by tchaiku; 04-01-2017, 01:57 AM.

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        • Amphipolis
          Banned
          • Aug 2014
          • 1328

          #94
          Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
          Hellenized artificially means being forced to abandon their native language in such way to believe that they are the decadents of Pericles, and the other one refers to being culturally assimilated by desire or conquest.
          Vlachs don’t believe they are the descendants of Pericles, but they do have some of their own bizarre beliefs. According to most of the Vlach authors, they claim they did not come recently (during Ottoman Empire) from Romania, but they have been nomads, always moving around Western Balkans since antiquity.

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          • tchaiku
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 786

            #95
            Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
            Vlachs don’t believe they are the descendants of Pericles, but they do have some of their own bizarre beliefs. According to most of the Vlach authors, they claim they did not come recently (during Ottoman Empire) from Romania, but they have been nomads, always moving around Western Balkans since antiquity.
            How is that related to what I was talking?

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              #96
              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
              Carlin could it be that those Vlachs were romaniansed Hellenes? I personally can easily tell a stereotypical Greek face.

              This guy has a Vlach surname:
              Kostas Chalkias
              Really thick black eyebrows, dark hair.
              Many Greeks as well politicians tend to have those features.
              Many Vlachs could indeed be latinized Hellenes - but also Romans (Roman colonists), latinized: Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Scythians, Cumans, Pechenegs, Slavs, etc.

              I don't like to get into what is a stereotypical face of any modern Balkan nationality. Not my thing - and it's irrelevant.

              Anyway, here is a video / photos of the Vlachs of Magnesia (the southeastern area of Thessaly in central Greece).

              ΟΙ ΒΛΑΧΟΙ ΤΗΣ ΜΑΓΝΗΣΙΑΣ
              Last edited by Carlin; 04-01-2017, 11:58 AM.

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              • tchaiku
                Member
                • Nov 2016
                • 786

                #97
                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                Many Vlachs could indeed be latinized Hellenes - but also Romans (Roman colonists), latinized: Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Scythians, Cumans, Pechenegs, Slavs, etc.

                I don't like to get into what is a stereotypical face of any modern Balkan nationality. Not my thing - and it's irrelevant.

                Anyway, here is a video / photos of the Vlachs of Magnesia (the southeastern area of Thessaly in central Greece).

                ΟΙ ΒΛΑΧΟΙ ΤΗΣ ΜΑΓΝΗΣΙΑΣ
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-A0vkMplG8
                They look quite Greek to me.
                Last edited by tchaiku; 04-01-2017, 01:55 PM.

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                • tchaiku
                  Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 786

                  #98
                  Btw I just found out that Morea was liberated under some sort of italian rule in 1700s.

                  Try looking for information of population under this period maybe it will clear things up.

                  I just found out that Jews were a minority during those times what I don't know is its significance.

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                  • tchaiku
                    Member
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 786

                    #99
                    The peninsula was divided into four provinces:

                    Romania, in the northeastern Peloponnese, with capital at Nauplio (Napoli di Romania), and the districts of Argos, Corinth, Tripoli, and Hagios Petros in Tsakonia (???)

                    (Additional information:https://books.google.com/books?id=-h...0Morea&f=false )

                    Laconia, in the southeast, with capital at Monemvasia (Malvasia), and the districts of Mystras, Vordonia, Kelefa, Passavas and Zarnata

                    Messenia, in the southwest, with capital at Navarino, and the districts of Modon, Coron, Androusa, Kalamata, Leontari, Karytaina, Fanari, Kyparissia and Navarino

                    Achaia, in the northwest, with capital at Patras, and the districts of Vostitsa, Kalavryta, Gastouni and Patras



                    The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.

                    To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                      The peninsula was divided into four provinces:

                      Romania, in the northeastern Peloponnese, with capital at Nauplio (Napoli di Romania), and the districts of Argos, Corinth, Tripoli, and Hagios Petros in Tsakonia (???)

                      (Additional information:https://books.google.com/books?id=-h...0Morea&f=false )

                      Laconia, in the southeast, with capital at Monemvasia (Malvasia), and the districts of Mystras, Vordonia, Kelefa, Passavas and Zarnata

                      Messenia, in the southwest, with capital at Navarino, and the districts of Modon, Coron, Androusa, Kalamata, Leontari, Karytaina, Fanari, Kyparissia and Navarino

                      Achaia, in the northwest, with capital at Patras, and the districts of Vostitsa, Kalavryta, Gastouni and Patras



                      The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.

                      To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.
                      Good find tchaiku.

                      Take a look at my posts #58 through #60 on this same thread for some additional material -
                      - "Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese.." - "Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.." - "..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.." - "..the guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek revolution Vlachs


                      Post #58 summary:
                      - Romania of the Peloponnese - In the year 1606, Argolida and the Nauplio region are called Romania, according to the testimony of the pirate Alonso de Contreras.
                      - The residents of Argolida and Nauplio are Romans in the early 17th century and Aromanian-speakers/Vlachophones - as Cousinery met them in 19th century and they were still Aromanian-speakers, and called themselves Ρωμουνοι (Romouni or Romans).

                      Post #59 summary:
                      - We know from Chalkokondyles and geographer Meletios that the regions of Taygetos, land of Laconia, and promontory of Tenaron were long inhabited by Romani (that is, Vlachs/Armani).
                      - Maniati were Armani.
                      - The Armani or Vlachs have been variously called by different writers and in different places by the following names: Maniati, Laconi, Bui, Megalovlahiti, Dasareti, Meteori, etc. etc.

                      Post #60 summary:
                      - 11th century medieval testimony => “Sikyon is in the country of Elladikon Vlahon” (Σικυών εστιν η χώρα των Ελλαδικών Βλάχων). And famously Sikyon is the city of Corinthia, the capital of which (Corinth) Roman settlers rebuilt and dwelt in, descendants of which were Sikyonian Vlachs of this testimony. From the language of these Corintho-Vlachs also came abundant Vlach place names of the Peloponnese.

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                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                        Vlachs don’t believe they are the descendants of Pericles, but they do have some of their own bizarre beliefs. According to most of the Vlach authors, they claim they did not come recently (during Ottoman Empire) from Romania, but they have been nomads, always moving around Western Balkans since antiquity.
                        Speaking of bizarre -

                        Konstantinos Tsioulkas, in 1907. wrote "Contributions to the bilingualism of the Macedonians through a comparison of the Slav-seeming Macedonian language with Greek" (Tsioulkas 1907). Tsioulkas was born in Gorenci (after 1919 renamed to Korisos/Κορησός). Per Tsioulkas:

                        - The goal of the book was to show how the so-called Bulgarian language in Macedonia was in reality a Greek and not a Slavic language;
                        - Tsioulkas did not attempt to demonstrate and prove that this language was not "Macedonian", but to show that it was not Bulgarian.

                        We should add G. Boukouvalas to this who in 1905. wrote a book titled "The language of the Bulgarian-speakers in Macedonia" where he is arguing that the language of the Macedonians is a "mixture" of Greek and Slavic. Contrary to him, Tsioulkas is actively arguing and proving that the Slavophone Macedonians are Greeks since their language is Greek in a genetic sense, and origin. Tsioulkas states:

                        "The modern so-called Slav-seeming Macedonian is in fact Macedonian and the sister of Greek, and consequently the Macedonian people is autochthonous and of genuine Macedonian blood".

                        Last edited by Carlin; 04-01-2017, 10:24 PM.

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                        • tchaiku
                          Member
                          • Nov 2016
                          • 786

                          The provinces which the Greeks formed a majority of the inhabitants were divided into six pahaliks of high rank and many smaller districts governt immediately by inferior pashas.
                          1.The most iportant....of the Islands and of the part of coast of Greece....Cyprus Rhodes and Mytilene...
                          2.The pashalik of Morea.....
                          3...4...
                          5.The pashalik of Selanic ,or Thessalonica,extending over the greater part of Macedonia...
                          6The island of Crete.."

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                          • Amphipolis
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 1328

                            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                            Speaking of bizarre -

                            Konstantinos Tsioulkas, in 1907. wrote "Contributions to the bilingualism of the Macedonians through a comparison of the Slav-seeming Macedonian language with Greek" (Tsioulkas 1907). Tsioulkas was born in Gorenci (after 1919 renamed to Korisos/Κορησός).
                            There's an extended discussion about Tsioulkas here:



                            I have also added my opinion when my name was Thessalo-niki and later Sweet Sixteen.

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                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              1) The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:

                              "The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."


                              Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

                              2) The 10th century "Byzantine" anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

                              «Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

                              "And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythi-Slavs'."

                              Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

                              And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

                              «Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

                              s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

                              "And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'."

                              Who were these Scythians and/or Scythi-Slavs? What happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air at some later stage of history? Were they exterminated fully? One thing seems evident - whoever these 'Scythians' were, they settled into Peloponnese lands and regions that were (already) largely empty. (If not, these 'Scythians' exterminated or drove out whatever locals they found.)

                              3) Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).

                              Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:

                              i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.” In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas, the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”

                              If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese, one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world.


                              ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.

                              iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.

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                              • tchaiku
                                Member
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 786

                                .................................................. ........
                                Last edited by tchaiku; 05-03-2018, 08:23 AM.

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