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  • Buktop
    Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 934

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    Buktop,

    If you want some "context", then you should view the comments within the context of UMD's key objectives - and that's Macedonia's entry into NATO and the EU.

    UMD has consistently argued that Macedonia should join these organisations. In fact, it has claimed devastating consequences if it doesn't. Meto's (and it appears now Mitreski's) answer on how Macedonia can "realistically" join these organisation is for it to change its name.

    So, viewing their comment's within the context of UMD's key policy objectives of NATO and EU membership, its difficult to see how it could be reasonably understood that these two (President and Vice President) do not support a name change.
    Do you happen to know UMD's other key policy objectives?
    "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

    Never once say you walk upon your final way
    though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
    Our long awaited hour will draw near
    and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Originally posted by Buktop View Post
      Do you happen to know UMD's other key policy objectives?
      Post what you have in mind.
      Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-03-2010, 10:56 PM.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Prolet
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 5241

        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        Prolet, some very wise advice. Well done.
        Spolaj Ti Brat, thanks for the compliments
        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          Originally posted by Buktop
          Originally posted by Pelister
          Recently the Vice-President of UMD (who by now probably hates me), said that He personally agreed with Nimetz, that TO INTEGRATE, WE MUST NEGOTIATE.
          This is Pelister's initial statement. I assume you realize what he is implying.
          I know exactly what he is implying. Here is the relevant excerpt from the original email that Mitreski sent to Pelister:

          i am sure many of you have seen this article, but i stilll think it deserves s thread on here. Greece is plugged in the Matrix, Macedonia should too By Gorazd V. September 4, 2008 http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3219/1/ Macedonia , as a country, is in negotiations with Greece for the past

          I asked Nimitz what international law gives the right to Greece to dictate the name of a sovereign country. He said that there is no such law, but Macedonia, if it wants to enter certain international organizations then it is bound to negotiate over the name. He is right. We can say fuck off and stop negotiations, but what would happen next nobody knows........
          How does one interpret that? Why should we accept that it is a must to negotiate on our name if we want to enter certain international organisations? I don't share that opinion. If we are to enter any organisation, our name shouldn't be up for discussion, period. If it does get brought up as a condition of entry, then we should walk away. That is what the UMD should have been telling the government, rather than fearing the 'unknown' of what might happen were we to "say fuck off and stop negotiations". At the end of his email, Mitreski also makes the following statement:
          We have talked in private to Macedonian officials that we need to end these negotiations. We will continue to do so.
          But Mitreski says earlier in the email that "what would happen next nobody knows". How are these two points reconciled? Why aren't they talking in public rather than in private? Does the UMD stand to lose something if it echoes the true voice of the Macedonian Diaspora in an overt manner?
          Originally posted by AMitreski
          All I said was that Nimetz told me that Macedonia is not required to negotiate its name. And I said he is right! We do not have to.
          Now who is twisting words and making re-interpretations? Mitreski said "he is right" in reference to Macedonia being 'bound' to negotiate its name for the purpose of entering international organisations. He did not, as falsely indicated in the above quoted text, say "he is right" with regard to Macedonia not being required to negotiate its name.
          Originally posted by Buktop
          I am not saying that the literal text was manipulated, I am saying its meaning was.

          And this is not the first time Pelister has taken quotes out of context, whether it be deliberately or mistakenly.
          I don't agree with some of his other statements, but in this instance, neither the text nor Pelister's interpretation is manipulative or out of context. Buktop, your personal view of Pelister is clouding your objective judgement.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • osiris
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1969

            personally i want to thank pelister for his bravery and tenacity, i can see now exactlt how right he has been all this time on the umd and its many strange attitudes.

            pelister come to the human rights dinner with friedman how can you miss it mate. you are close enough come on our table we need a few more.

            Comment

            • amitreski
              Junior Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 51

              BTW


              What I am upset the most about is that UMD's policy is twistes up like a pretzel on these forums by few people who either belong to another Macedonian organization and try to weaken UMD, or just due to pure jealousy.

              Ако бараш влакно ќе го најдеш и во јајцето.

              Here is my article published in Dnevnik. As you can see I have asked some serious questions:

              Не треба да се преговара за тоа што е наше

              (Текст на Александар Митрески, потпретседател на Обединета македонска дијаспора, објавен на www.umdiaspora.org , 24-ти април 2008)

              Кога се преговара во некој спор, двете страни почнуваат со тврди ставови во своја корист кои се појдовна точка за да се дискутира за можен компромис. За жал, веќе 17 години Македонија наивно преговара. Ние во овие преговори треба јасно и гласно да кажеме дека нашето уставно име и идентитет не се можна тема за дискусија. Впрочем, ниедна личност, партија, установа нема право да преговара за уставното име.

              Но наместо тоа, ние постојано гледаме како да најдеме некое си фер решение и со тоа постојано си ги поткопуваме нашите позици. Во исто време, пак, Македонија никогаш гласно не кажала дека и таа има проблем со својот јужен сосед кој треба итно да се реши, а тоа се правата на Македонците од Егејска Македонија.

              Уставното име на нашата држава е Република Македонија и нема менување на тоа име за интерна и интернационална употреба. Доколку Грција има проблем со тоа име, тогаш билатерално да се реши тоа прашање. Ова требаше да биде исходот од преговорите за името во 1995-та година. А ние тогаш, а и сега, влегуваме во преговори веќе подготвени за отстапки и компромис. А другата страна во 1995-та г. излезе со тврд став дека во името на нашата држава не смее да стои зборот Македонија, за сега да изгледа како херој кој веќе направил компромис и може да прифати име како Северна Македонија.

              Колку шлаканици треба да ни се удрат за ние да се освестиме дека не треба да продолжиме во овој самоубиствен процес за срамно преговарање за нешто што со векови е наше? Тажно е тоа што Бакојани се лути дека Нимиц давал промакедонски предлози. Секој предлог на Нимиц кој е различен од нашето уставно име е погубен предлог за нас и ние тоа треба гласно да го манифестираме. Во овие преговори само ние можеме да изгубиме нешто, а другата страна е победник со самото тоа што има преговори.

              Дали на Република Македонија не и е грижа за стотиците илјади Македонци кои се обесправени во Егејска Македонија и уште толку Македонци кои не можат да одат да си ги видат своите родни огништа? Кога Р. Македонија ќе го покрене ова прашанје во овие преговори? До кога срамно ќе молчиме против нашиот јужен сосед додека тие си играат со нас како сакаат? Зарем е толку тешко да се свати дека проблемот не е името, туку со милионите што јужниот содед треба да ги плати за оштета кон Егејските Македонци?

              Македонија мора веднаш да ги прекине овие преговори, бидејќи повеќе не е обврзана да го прави тоа. Со ветото е прекршен Привремениот договор и со тоа Р. Македонија мора да поднесе барање за пререгистрација во Обединетите нации под своето уставно име. Впрочем, се виде дека тие селективно почитуваат договори. Ние го дадовме своето знаме за да не ни се дава вето. Кој ни гарантира дека доколку пак направиме отстапки тие нема повторно селективно да почитуваат договори кога треба да влеземе во ЕУ?

              Македонија мора да почне агресивно да го поставува прашањето за Македонците од Егејска Македонија до Европскиот парламент и Судот во Стразбург. Македонија треба да поведе судска постапка поради прекршување на договорот и претрпените штети што не сме во НАТО. Се покажа дека, и покрај ветото, Р. Македонија има пријатели и има перспектива. НАТО нема да ги реши економските прашања, туку работа, почитување на закони, некорумпираност и гордост се нашата иднина.
              "No, it is not the critic who counts. Not the one who points out how a strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and may come up short, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails daring greatly." - Theodore Roosevelt

              Comment

              • amitreski
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 51

                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                Mitreski, maybe UMD hasn't taken a stand against the WMC, but the "young" Meto certainly did in his post on Macedonian Media Monitor, dated 3 April 2003:



                Ok than, I guess we agree that UMD has never gone against WMC.
                "No, it is not the critic who counts. Not the one who points out how a strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and may come up short, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails daring greatly." - Theodore Roosevelt

                Comment

                • amitreski
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 51

                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  No they won't. We already have confirmation the UMD chooses to ignore historical arguments. It is policy for them apparently.
                  Where did you hear that?
                  "No, it is not the critic who counts. Not the one who points out how a strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and may come up short, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails daring greatly." - Theodore Roosevelt

                  Comment

                  • aleksandrov
                    Member
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 558

                    Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                    ...
                    The quote provided by Indigen does not indicate willing and unwavering support of the Framework Agreement....
                    I refuse to believe that you are so dense as to believe what you just said there. And I hope you take that as a compliment.
                    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                    https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                    Comment

                    • osiris
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1969

                      actually this discussion is going nowhere, and ultimately actions speak much louder than words.whats funny is how the umd heads and supporters profess adherence to democratic principles yet are so sensitive to criticsm.

                      Comment

                      • Prolet
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 5241

                        A.Mitreski, Do you have the list of achievements from 2009?

                        You shouldnt be so upset, we give credit where its due you did a fantastic job organizing the screening of "A Name is a Name" keep it up the good work.

                        The Ilinden Upraising succeed, it only lasted 10 days and the Ottoman Turks took it back then what happened afterwords? We where split into 3 parts, Turkey had a modern army with Cannons and Machine Guns while we had the Creshevo Topche covering us. The Bulgarians,Greeks and Serbs took advantage of our weakness and they took over us, while even the British and Australian Troops struggled against the Turkish Forces as we all know what happened in Gallipolli they where sent to the slaughter house.
                        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                        Comment

                        • Phoenix
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 4671

                          we can not argue with people who spin and twist things around intentionally.
                          ...then you're not fit to challenge the greeks.

                          Comment

                          • osiris
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1969

                            mitreski are you able to give us a break down of where most of umds finacial support comes from.

                            Comment

                            • Prolet
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 5241

                              A Mitreski, Have you ever heard of "Za Sekoj Komita Tri Kodoshi" ??

                              The test is now my friend, The Premier of South Australia just called us History Thieves and other names. Get your people on it to follow this case carefully, sooner or later you will have to get involved. Demonstrate that you can work together with the other groups and you will gain our trust.
                              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                              Comment

                              • aleksandrov
                                Member
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 558

                                Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                                It is not about judging Aleksandrov, it is about the rights of the citizens to question the constitutionality of their adherence to the Interim and Framework agreements.

                                Have you volunteered your time to construct a case for the constitutional court in Macedonia? Have you, being such an important activist, offered to help support a case reaching the constitutional courts?

                                I do what I can, when I can, I am not the activist that you are, but yet I don't see you pushing for exploring the proper avenue's of questioning or overthrowing the Interim and Framework Agreements at the constitutional courts, (where this whole matter should have been decided 20 years ago) It is not difficult to discern that the government of Macedonia follows these two agreements and considers them valid and binding and within their constitutional authority, so wouldn't the obvious course of action be to question it through the high courts?

                                This is not a question of what have I done, what have you done, it is a question of why hasn't this been done?
                                My advocacy against the Framework Agreement is well documented in Macedonian and Australian media archives since before it was even ratified.

                                The Macedonian Australian Council of Sydney (including the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney and the Macedonian Orthodox Community Church St. Petka) raised $386,237.70 in less than a month just in Sydney to support the defense against the racist terrorists who attacked Macedonia in 2001 i.e. to do the opposite of appeasing them with something like the Framework Agreement.

                                While most of the money from that fund was used to support the families of soldiers who were or would be killed or injured on the frontline - something that is essential for sustained resistance, the Macedonian Australian Council of Sydney is the only organization anywhere in the world to have funded a media campaign in the Republic of Macedonia against the ratification of that treacherous and suicidal Agreement (with ground-support from the World Macedonian Congress and MAAK). We also sponsored the blockade by displaced Macedonians of the border with Kosovo, which was designed as a protest against foreign pressure to appease the Albanian racist terrorists (also organized by the World Macedonian Congress). If more organizations and some political parties had the courage and will to join us, we might have actually succeeded. Since that time, we have consistently maintained a policy that the Framework Agreement is a treacherous, racially discriminatory and ruinous arrangement, which must be replaced with a model for the Rule of Law and multiculturalism that is based on a successful Western model (but not on the Swiss model, where there is no autochthonous Swiss ethnicity), where racism and terrorism are not rewarded, but punished. I would fill you in on some of the details if I thought it was worthwhile, but it seems that you are only questioning me as a way to divert attention from the fact that you and the organization you support have not only failed to clearly denounce or condemn the Framework Agreement, but have in fact praised it.

                                Regardless of what you and the UMD have said and done in the past, I would be happy to know that in future you will condemn and oppose it for what it is. Are you and the UMD willing to do that or not?

                                I have almost no faith in Macedonia's Constitutional Court. In fact, I have little faith in the Macedonian legal system in general, especially when it comes to protecting citizens' rights against the power of the state (especially the post-communist installations of SDSM and Co.) and its foreign puppet-masters. Even the current Government of Macedonia has no faith in the Constitutional Court. Hypothetically, if the Constitutional Court were to rule that the Framework Agreement or any part of it is unconstitutional, the political parties that are responsible for its ratification could easily change the Constitution to overcome any legal obstacles to their designs. So why would I waste my time launching a case before the Constitutional Court?

                                The only thing that can save Macedonia is the extermination of the popular slave mentality that lets the rule of fear and petty materialism take precedence over justice and the Rule of Law.
                                Last edited by aleksandrov; 02-04-2010, 09:34 AM.
                                All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                                https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                                Comment

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