1. History: Andrew Rossos: Macedonia and the Macedonians (2008)

[Sweet Sixteen]

SS, do you agree that the Macedonian people are a unique nation, with their own unique language, culture and history? Be honest.

So, let's start with books that can become your official historiography. Which ones would you add and what do you think about each one?

http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresearch.policyarchive.org%2F11853.pdf&ei=FlLNU6LrA8aY1AWQvoCoBQ&usg=AFQjCNH91FHQnMdt1rCDhhHdQpDL47DHfA&sig2=NaiPyGHHTVqmFcxVdeNfYQ&bvm=bv.71198958,d.bGQ

[George S.]

what kind of link is this?there is nothing??SS are you trying to make us for fools.??Tom go ahead and make your day.

[Sweet Sixteen]

what kind of link is this?there is nothing??SS are you trying to make us for fools.??Tom go ahead and make your day.

It's a link to a pdf file of the book. If it doesn't work for you, just google:

andrew rossos macedonia and the macedonians research policy archive

and click on the first result.

[Vangelovski]

So, let's start with books that can become your official historiography. Which ones would you add and what do you think about each one?

http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&...71198958,d.bGQ

This post is so retarded that it doesn't even deserve a response. When you get back, provide a direct answer to my question or don't come back at all.

[George S.]

I read that stuff on Macedonia and the Macedonians ,he thinks he is some sort of an authority.He still mentions how were slavs and how we are called Fyrom.Also he mentions that the area we live in has historical significance but we have not much of a connect with the ancients.Well SS whats your reason for bringing it all up you don't need to remind us of the derogatory terminology used not only by the greeks but by the Bulgarians.They do deny our identity and our basic existence.Why is this Rossos not talking about basic human rights for all the Macedonians in the Aegean area.Not only this but how oppressed they are still in this age supposedly of reason the oppression and genocide of a nation of people still goes under the noses of the eu.Greece only cares for the name and not the problem it has in its borders.Your buddy rossos fails to admit or comprehend the real things of the situation.Why the fuck do you waste our time SS.??

[Constellation]

I read that stuff on Macedonia and the Macedonians ,he thinks he is some sort of an authority.He still mentions how were slavs and how we are called Fyrom.Also he mentions that the area we live in has historical significance but we have not much of a connect with the ancients.Well SS whats your reason for bringing it all up you don't need to remind us of the derogatory terminology used not only by the greeks but by the Bulgarians.They do deny our identity and our basic existence.Why is this Rossos not talking about basic human rights for all the Macedonians in the Aegean area.Not only this but how oppressed they are still in this age supposedly of reason the oppression and genocide of a nation of people still goes under the noses of the eu.Greece only cares for the name and not the problem it has in its borders.Your buddy rossos fails to admit or comprehend the real things of the situation.Why the fuck do you waste our time SS.??

Andrew Rossos is a Macedonian born in Aegean Macedonia, which would explain his Greek name. He has a PhD from Stanford University. I have not read the whole book yet, but from I have read I would make the following comments:

1. He believes that ethnic Macedonians were the majority in Aegean Macedonia.
2. He believes Greece ethnically cleansed ethnic Macedonians in the Aegean.
3. He does not believe the ancient Macedonians were Greek, but in time the Macedonian elite became quite Hellenized (which is true).
4. He agrees with us that the Bulgarians, Serbians, and Greeks have denied Macedonian self-determination, even till this day.
5. He believes in the Slavic Migration theory, and that Slavic tribes colonized all of Macedonia. It appears that he also believes the original Macedonians were pretty much wiped out.
6. He is of the position that the ancient Illyrians migrated south into Albania to flee the Slavs.
7. Surprisingly, he states that Slavic tribes even reached Crete, which (if true) would explain the R1a (9%) of the Cretan population.

His position is similar to the mainstream position which is that the Slavic tribes in Greece were assimilated into the Hellenic language and culture. This is one aspect I have always found difficult to reconcile.

How is that the Slavic tribes, who by all accounts invaded the whole Balkans, including Greece and Crete, managed to establish their language virtually everywhere except Greece? What explains this? Was it because the Greek language and culture was so deeply established in the Mediterranean that the Slavs were assimilated and the languages of the Macedonians, Illyrians, Thracians were not?

How did Slavic, which by all accounts was a less developed language from a less developed culture take root over seemingly more advanced languages and cultures? Force?

[Constellation]

I would add another point. He seems to take the position that a Macedonian people/ethncity ceased to exist around the time of the Slavic migration and that a Macedonian ethnicity began to emerge or take shape in the 1800s or so.

This is a complete contradiction to the writings of Orbini who stated that at the time of writing (1603) there were Macedonians speaking Slavic.

This would have to mean there were people who identified as Macedonian ethnically. There is no record that Greeks or Greek tribes at this point in time of history who identified as Macedonian.

[George S.]

precisely the Macedonians did not cease to exist.The Macedonians continued to exist.The speaking of Slavic that there ever was a Slavic language or a country.The so called Slavic people in Macedonia were actually Macedonian.

[Constellation]

precisely the Macedonians did not cease to exist.The Macedonians continued to exist.The speaking of Slavic that there ever was a Slavic language or a country.The so called Slavic people in Macedonia were actually Macedonian.

George, I agree, but Macedonian is part of a language family, and it is part of the Slavic language family. Slavic is not a language or an ethnicity or a culture, but a family of languages. Thus, Macedonian is a language, but it is part of a family of languages known as Slavic.

Orbini was an early Pan Slavicist who believed in Slavicism. I don't know share this view. Macedonian should be called Macedonia.

[George S.]

Constellation hooray you are slowly getting it I may as well call you the resident expert on the slavs.You finally got it.Habip Hooray.

[Sweet Sixteen]

Risto Stefov: History of the Macedonian People From Ancient times to the Present

Risto Stefov: History of the Macedonian People From Ancient times to the Present (2005)

http://www.pollitecon.com/html/ebooks/risto-stefov/History-of-the-Macedonian-People.pdf

This is the 2nd book (actually an e-book) that can become your official historiography (it doesn’t matter that is an amateurish effort). I don't see many comments on Rossos (who is a more serious case than Stefov) or recommendations of other books. I'm not sure I can find a third one.

[Sweet Sixteen]

I read that stuff on Macedonia and the Macedonians ,he thinks he is some sort of an authority.He still mentions how were slavs and how we are called Fyrom.Also he mentions that the area we live in has historical significance but we have not much of a connect with the ancients.Well SS whats your reason for bringing it all up you don't need to remind us of the derogatory terminology used not only by the greeks but by the Bulgarians.They do deny our identity and our basic existence.Why is this Rossos not talking about basic human rights for all the Macedonians in the Aegean area.Not only this but how oppressed they are still in this age supposedly of reason the oppression and genocide of a nation of people still goes under the noses of the eu.Greece only cares for the name and not the problem it has in its borders.Your buddy rossos fails to admit or comprehend the real things of the situation.Why the fuck do you waste our time SS.??

Rossos is obviously NOT my buddy and you obviously did not read the book where your questions are answered (while other issues remain intentionally untouched).

[Sweet Sixteen]

How is that the Slavic tribes, who by all accounts invaded the whole Balkans, including Greece and Crete, managed to establish their language virtually everywhere except Greece? What explains this? Was it because the Greek language and culture was so deeply established in the Mediterranean that the Slavs were assimilated and the languages of the Macedonians, Illyrians, Thracians were not?

Actually, it was because they never dominated the whole area for the whole time. What they achieved, as it usually happens in History, was circumstantial. Leaving aside the controversy about antiquity, there's no historical reference that a separate Macedonian or Thracian language existed by the time Slavs arrived. I'm not sure what "Illyrian language" would refer to, either.

How did Slavic, which by all accounts was a less developed language from a less developed culture take root over seemingly more advanced languages and cultures? Force?

That was a long process. Usually-before vanishing- advanced civilisations have a period of decay and shrinking. So, it’s not exactly force.

[Vangelovski]

SS,

You obviously didn't get much thinking done during your week off. I asked you a question - give me your response or you're gone.

[Sweet Sixteen]

SS,

You obviously didn't get much thinking done during your week off. I asked you a question - give me your response or you're gone.

Can’t you wait a little? I’m blowing someone else right now.