The Illyrians

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hi SOM



Its ironic that J.G von Hahn (Johann Georg von Hahn) was an Austrian diplomat at the time of making his proposition that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians. This is significant because at that time the Croatians and Slovenians were going through a period of national awakening which entailed demanding autonomy within the Austro-Hungarian empire. The movement was known as the Illyrian Movement.

The Austrian response was simple, while Austrian scholars were busy proposing that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians (which became official Austrian state policy) they also began propagating the theory that the Croatians and Slovenians were just merely nomadic 'Slavs', the product of a 6th century migration and therefore they didn't really 'own' the lands they came to settle anyway. The Austrian officials backed up this policy by making all reference to the word 'Illyria' or 'Illyrians' a death penalty offence in Slovenia and Croatia.

Hey Napoleon, that is a very important point that you have just highlighted. Had it not been for this Austrian writer, the modern Albanians would not be claiming an Illyrian origin, and the right to claim these people would have correctly remained with the Slavic-speakers of the west Balkans.

[Soldier of Macedon]

More from Wilkes:

Page 219:

In the matter of physical character skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m, female 1.53 m). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian ahtropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians.

Here is something from pages 221-222:

As an alternative to wine the Greeks learned of an excellent recipe for mead made from honey and water from the Taulantii near Dyrrachium, still consumed by the Pannonian Illyrians in the age of Attila the Hun.

That seems to be in relation to Mario Alinei's explanation of the Slavic word 'medu', meaning honey, used among the natives in the area north of the Danube, at a time when Attila had reigned over them.

http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

[makedonin]

What do you think about this one:

Another ancient Illyrian element is the plain local “opinga”, (kind of mocassina).

http://worldmusiccentral.org/article.php/20041228040955584

As far as I know, this opinga >mocassina's shoes are not restricted to the Albanians.

The Serbs have them and call them opinak and we have them and call them opinec. Of course there are slight differences in the model and design, but all in all, it is the same thing we are talking about.

How much does that make the Albos a descendants of the Illyrians.

I would like to hear the Albanian ethimology of the word.

As for the "Slavic" it is most likely related to опне > to draw tight, to stretch, to tighten up, as related to napne > to make an effort.

So the opinga separates to opin <> opni and ga> go > it. Something you tighten up or draw tight to your foot.

Only Logical to me.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you think about this one:



As far as I know, this opinga >mocassina's shoes are not restricted to the Albanians.

The Serbs have them and call them opinak and we have them and call them opinec. Of course there are slight differences in the model and design, but all in all, it is the same thing we are talking about.

How much does that make the Albos a descendants of the Illyrians.

I would like to hear the Albanian ethimology of the word.

As for the "Slavic" it is most likely related to опне > to draw tight, to stretch, to tighten up, as related to napne > to make an effort.

So the opinga separates to opin <> opni and ga> go > it. Something you tighten up or draw tight to your foot.

Only Logical to me.

Opinga - Opinca (Opinci, pl.)

I remember hearing my father say 'ne se opinai nogu' - meaning "don't advance (approach in an uncontrolled manner) too much", it makes more sense in Macedonian.

What is the Illyrian word for it?

[makedonin]

Opinga - Opinca (Opinci, pl.)

I remember hearing my father say 'ne se opinai nogu' - meaning "don't advance (approach in an uncontrolled manner) too much", it makes more sense in Macedonian.

What is the Illyrian word for it?

опне is the Macedonian word. It has many meanings. One of it is your example of usage.

As for the Illyrian word, I still could not trace it. If I do, than I will post it here.

But opinga is in no case Albanian word, that is for sure. Just like Besa

The "Illyrians" though.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanians and Greeks have many cultural elements - customs and linguistic, that are of Macedonian and other Slavic origins.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The following are some excerpts from Appian, a figure from antiquity that wrote about the Illyrians. Just another insight into their history......

[§1] The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps.

[§2] They say that the country received its name from Illyrius, the son of Polyphemus; for the cyclops Polyphemus and his wife, Galatea, had three sons, Celtus, Illyrius, and Galas, all of whom migrated from Sicily; and the nations called Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians took their origin from them.

Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived.

[§3] The Illyrian tribes are many, as is natural in so extensive a country; and celebrated even now are the names of the Scordisci and the Triballi, who inhabited a wide region and destroyed each other by wars to such a degree that the remnant of the Triballi took refuge with the Getae on the other side of the Danube…...

The Scordisci, having been reduced to extreme weakness in the same way, and having suffered much at a later period in war with the Romans, took refuge in the islands of the same river. In the course of time some of them returned and settled on the confines of Pannonia, and thus it happens that a tribe of the Scordisci still remains in Pannonia.

[§5] in conjunction with the Celts, certain Illyrian tribes, especially the Scordisci, the Maedi, and the Dardani again invaded Macedonia and Greece together…..

………Scipio, made war against the Illyrians, on account of this temple robbery, as the Romans now held sway over the Greeks and the Macedonians.

…………..Scipio, who destroyed the greater part of the Scordisci, the remainder fleeing to the Danube and settling in the islands of that river.

[§6] These peoples, and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguished from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of Illyria as embraced under a common designation.

…………..all the nations from the source of the Danube to the Euxine Sea under one head, and call it the Illyrian tax.

[§14] The Paeones are a great nation on the Danube, extending from the Iapydes to the Dardani. They are called Paeones by the Greeks, but Pannonians by the Romans. They are counted by the Romans as a part of Illyria, as I have previously said, for which reason it seems proper that I should include them in my Illyrian history. They have been renowned from the Macedonian period through the Agrianes, who rendered very important aid to Philip and Alexander and are Paeones of Lower Pannonia bordering on Illyria.

[§29] The remaining peoples, who are considered by the Romans to be parts of Illyria, are the Rhaetians and the Noricans, on this side of Pannonia, and the Mysians on the other side as far as the Euxine Sea.

[§30]........ I have found nothing further done by the Roman republic as to the Mysians. They were not subjected to tribute by Augustus, but by Tiberius, who succeeded him as Roman emperor.
………….since the Romans consider the Mysians a part of Illyria and this is my Illyrian history, in order that it may be complete it seems proper to premise that Lucullus invaded Mysia as a general of the republic and that Tiberius took it in the time of the empire.

[Sarafot]

Vlasi are tatooed to,in the midle of the head they have a cros.
Jugoslavija was maded after ilirian idea in 16 st.United Ilirian nation,later becomed united suth slavic nations.

more info in Matkovski book Heraldika na Makedonija,ask Jonovski for more info.The patron of Ilirians-Slavs was saint Erazmo and coat of iliria vas ''Mesec i dzvezda''

[Delodephius]

The Illyrians by John Wilkes

Does anyone know where I could download a PDF of the book The Illyrians by John Wilkes? The one on GoogleBooks is not downloadable.

[makedonin]

Edit:


sorry, I misread your post.

[Daskalot]

If someone would like to have a copy of the book PM me.

[TrueMacedonian]

Illyrian Neuri possible ancestors of the Slavs


page 123

[I of Macedon]

The following information may prove of further interest when considering the above, depending on how people view it.


From Igenea

Indigenous Peoples in Ukraine
Illyrian 10 %

Indigenous Peoples in Romania
Illyrian 12 %

Indigenous Peoples in Slovenia
Illyrian 20 %

Indigenous Peoples in Bosnia
Illyrian 40 %

Indigenous Peoples in Serbia & Montenegro
Illyrian 21 %

Indigenous Peoples in Macedonia
Illyrian 10 %

Indigenous Peoples in Greece
Illyrian 10 %

Indigenous Peoples in Turkey
Illyrian 4 %

From geneology procect

I2a. P37.2

The I2a subclade can be described by the presence of SNP P37.2 and is the most frequent haplogroup in the Balkan region, with a frequency peaking in Herzegovinia (60-70%). A high frequency is also found in Bosnia (40-50%) and Croatia (32%). The Croatian islands frequencies (Hvar = 66%, Korčula 52%, Brač =36% and Krk = 9.5%) show a decreasing trend in a northwestern direction. A similar drop off is seen moving to the northeast through Russia. In fact, the drop off in all directions creates a rather clear I2a peak in the Balkans that radiates outward over many Slavic populations to the east and south. The I2a subclade divergence is estimated near 11kya and it may have paralleled the spread of the R1a haplogroup in the Holocene period after the cold reversal and retreat of the glaciers from Europe.

J2b. M12

The J2b subclade has a similar European distribution to Y-chromosome subclade E-V13 and TMRCA estimate (~4.4kya), which is consistent with a common route of dispersal. It is most prominent in Balkans, Greece and Italy (North and Central regions), reaching frequencies around 5-10%. Present day countries with the highest frequencies include Albania, Hungary, Greece and Macedonia. This haplogroup population may have moved through the Balkans and north into Europe via rivers, such as the Danube. It is present in Crete and the Iberian Peninsula, which could also indicate a spread by sea-faring routes in the Mediterranean.

J2. M172.

Prominent European areas of J2 abundance include the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, the Balkans and Greece. An interesting general feature is that J2 frequencies drop off considerably in the Northward direction. From the Balkan Peninsula, there is a drop in abundance moving into and beyond the Carpathian Mountain countries of Ukraine, Romania, and Hungary.

E1b1b1a. M78

Note that M78 SNP is the second highest representative in the Balkans (~23%). There is a moderate geographic structure in that the frequency of E1b1b1a/M78 is higher in the South (Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia) than the North (Croatia, Bosnia).

[Sovius]

Many Neurians were regarded as having eventually settled along the banks of the Hypanis, which flowed through the lands of Sarmatia to the north, during the Ancient Period. In Southern Illyrian folklore, which remains intact under the contemporary glaze of Grecofication, the Nereides were regarded as sea nymphs. This may provide a better explanation as to how a mermaid (syrena>siren) came to don the crest of Warsaw than cultural adoption during a later period. The tamga of Armija Krajowa is also in the form of a mermaid, demonstrating a wider appreciation for these mythic figures among contemporary populations in this region.




MAIRA One of the Nereides. (Homer, Hyginus) More / sea

KETO The Nereid of "sea-monsters."(Apollodorus) kit still means ‘whale’ in Croatian

DOTO The Nereid of "giving" safe voyage or generous catch. (Hesiod, Homer, Apollodorus, Pausanias, Hyginus) dati / give

SPEIO The Nereid of the sea "caves." (Hesiod, Homer, Apollodorus, Hyginus, Virgil) szpilja / cave

PROTO The Nereis of the "first" voyage. (Hesiod, Homer, Apollodorus, Hyginus) ‘prvi’, kao ‘prvo’ - which word is more complex in terms of articulation? ‘Pro’ is ‘pre’ forced outwards, a mechanical relaxation

PLOTO The Nereid of "sailing." (Hesiod) ‘Plov’ , ‘ploviti’ Navigate, sailing, (plovo, plotho, ploto) plot a course? Notice the position in the mouth where the ‘L’ leaves the tongue in relation to where the ‘T’ sound begins when pronouncing ‘Ploto’. More energy is expended pronouncing a ‘V’ after producing a ‘L’ than a ‘T’.

THALEIA The Nereid of the "blooming" sea. (Homer, Hyginus, Virgil) talas / wave, waves are similar to a flower unfolding in the sunlight in many ways

THOE The Nereis of "swift" voyage or moving waves. (Hesiod, Homer, Hyginus) tok / flow, stream currents - modern word: tow

MELITE The Nereid of "calm" seas. (Hesiod, Homer, Apollodorus, Hyginus, Virgil) miran / calm (mir) Mir (pronounced correctly) and Mel are articulatory “cognates”, meaning they are pronounced very similar to one another due to their use of the alveolar ridge at the end their root segments.

http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Nereides.html

[George S.]

On the subject of blood types.I read somewhere where the greeks are descended from the subharan africa.They emigrated from africa a couple thousand years into the balkans.When they arrived there they just colonised everything & adopted the macedonian gods.They keep harping that macedonians were greek how come the macedonians were allready there 10 s of thousands years ago & the macedonians have a 7600 year old calendar.