1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Big Chukalo]

Greek is an indigenous language to the land so you would be right if we were teaching English. Its not our responsibility.

You're comparing paying for Pakistani night school for you're newest residents to what you did to the people that you found on the land in Macedonia a hundred years ago.

That explains alot about why we're in this mess today.

Wow.

[Bill77]

Just like we dont see Greek Muslims as Greeks. They were considered Turko-Alvani or more simply as Turks by both Greeks and Arvanites alike.

I love it when you trip, and its often.

So now its a religious thing is it? What happened to your belief "Language determines ethnicity"?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.

It is the job of any non-fascist government to provide assistance as required to ensure the human rights of all of their people. The preservation of culture is one of those rights.

Deluded perception ? We have to treat people the way we want to be treated SOM. Its a 2 way street.

You can treat an African as a Serb if that is their wish, but that doesn't mean their perception isn't deluded. Reality has to come into play at some point mate.

Not more than 15 to 20 percent.

According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians - that is almost 30 years after independence was achieved, which means 3 decades of state-sponsored 'Hellenic' propaganda that was generously being harnessed by your 'Philhellenic' friends in England, Germany and France. No doubt the number of Albanians was much higher. There is also the influence of the Patriarchate from the 18th century, which may have had different ideals to those propagating a Hellenic ideology - but still shared the same goal, namely, the creation of new Greek-speakers.

That is just the Albanians. Now consider the Macedonians and other Slavic-speaking peoples, the Vlachs and other Latin-speaking peoples, the Roma, etc. Alas, the uneducated peasantry had no chance against the clergy who dominated churches and schools or the local opportunists who were in government and singing the song of their 'Philhellenic' masters.

The modern Greek nation is a mirror copy of how the modern Turkish nation was born. The Lausanne Treaty pretty much solidified both countries as "homogenos" (and no this does not mean genetic purity).

It solidified Greece as a Christian state, with no regard for its myriad of cultures and languages. Thus, if your notion of ethnicity is primarily based on religion (like it has been in the past), then it cannot be compared with a conventional ethnicity (like Macedonian) where the people share a common ancestry, native language and culture.

And the people we suppress happen to be todays most fervent nationalists.

We have deluded Macedonians in Australia who were brought up in a grkoman environment, claim to be Greek, yet can't even speak Greek. They still speak Macedonian though. Funny, isn't it? You will find many such cases like that in the diaspora. Hopefully their children will be a little more honest with themselves.

The only forcefull assimilation practices were ones done in Macedonia and I will give you that. But the rest is a different story.

It is the same story. The only difference is that Macedonians were more vocal.

If we are so talented in brainwashing people they should send a group of Greek politicians to Afghanistan, maybe we can change those people into Greeks instead of Islamofascists.

Apples and oranges.

[Voltron]

It is the job of any non-fascist government to provide assistance as required to ensure the human rights of all of their people. The preservation of culture is one of those rights.

No, its not. Are you some isolated Amazon tribe that needs assistance from being wiped out ?

You can treat an African as a Serb if that is their wish, but that doesn't mean their perception isn't deluded. Reality has to come into play at some point mate.

Irrelevant, an African is not from the Balkans.

According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians - that is almost 30 years after independence was achieved, which means 3 decades of state-sponsored 'Hellenic' propaganda that was generously being harnessed by your 'Philhellenic' friends in England, Germany and France. No doubt the number of Albanians was much higher. There is also the influence of the Patriarchate from the 18th century, which may have had different ideals to those propagating a Hellenic ideology - but still shared the same goal, namely, the creation of new Greek-speakers.

Like I said, not more than 15 to 20%. That reference to 45% just to entertain that notion must apply then to the village where the Arvanites resided in. Other than that I cant think of any other way how that would make sense. That would mean 4 out of 10 Greeks are Arvanites. Hardly.

That is just the Albanians. Now consider the Macedonians and other Slavic-speaking peoples, the Vlachs and other Latin-speaking peoples, the Roma, etc. Alas, the uneducated peasantry had no chance against the clergy who dominated churches and schools or the local opportunists who were in government and singing the song of their 'Philhellenic' masters.

So why couldnt we do the same to the Pomaks in Thrace. What is it about them that they somehow escaped the Greek masterplan.

It solidified Greece as a Christian state, with no regard for its myriad of cultures and languages. Thus, if your notion of ethnicity is primarily based on religion (like it has been in the past), then it cannot be compared with a conventional ethnicity (like Macedonian) where the people share a common ancestry, native language and culture.

You have the same perception as Albanians do today. Both come from post communist countries with a new outlook on their identity. Along with Language and Location comes Culture. Part of culture or traditional common shared values is religion. If someone changes that they no longer share a common value therefore they dont fit into their ethnos. That is why Albanians and Macedonians have a flawed outlook into how they view their counterparts by saying even muslim ones fit the grade. The only way to justify this view is to then imply some type of genetic purity, but we all know that doesnt hold any weight.

We have deluded Macedonians in Australia who were brought up in a grkoman environment, claim to be Greek, yet can't even speak Greek. They still speak Macedonian though. Funny, isn't it? You will find many such cases like that in the diaspora. Hopefully their children will be a little more honest with themselves.

If Slavic is a linguistic term and not ethnos by your own view than they are considered Slavic speaking Greeks.

It is the same story. The only difference is that Macedonians were more vocal.

I was taking your and other posters word for it when I made that comment. Im sure there were some harsh policies put in place in Macedonia at times due to political events or as collateral damage from the Greco-Bulgarian fallout but thats about it.

Lastly I would like to point out that Bosnians created a new identity because of their religion. They are nothing more than Muslim Serbs.
Islam will override any type of ethnic ties at any given time. Their religion takes precedence so to try to include those people into your ethnos is impossible. Its just hopeless and will not work.

[Voltron]

I love it when you trip, and its often.

So now its a religious thing is it? What happened to your belief "Language determines ethnicity"?

It does when in conjuntion with Location and Culture.
Religion is a part of Culture. Where is the slippage Bill ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

No, its not. Are you some isolated Amazon tribe that needs assistance from being wiped out ?

Is that what you're waiting for, the Macedonian, Albanian and Vlach tongues to become near extinct before assistance will be provided?

Irrelevant, an African is not from the Balkans.

Go to Macedonia and see how quick you can become a Macedonian.

That reference to 45% just to entertain that notion must apply then to the village where the Arvanites resided in.

You're being nonsensical, it was in reference to Greece, not a village.

Other than that I cant think of any other way how that would make sense. That would mean 4 out of 10 Greeks are Arvanites. Hardly.

You find it hard to believe because you disregard other peoples that resided there, in addition to the actions of the Patriarchate, Philhellenes and Greek state. Once you stop deluding yourself, it might start making some sense.

So why couldnt we do the same to the Pomaks in Thrace. What is it about them that they somehow escaped the Greek masterplan.

They were Muslim. That should be obvious, pick up your game.

You have the same perception as Albanians do today. Both come from post communist countries with a new outlook on their identity.

No, we just base our ethnicity on common elements that are seemingly lacking among many of your so called 'Greeks'. It was the same before communism.

Along with Language and Location comes Culture.

If you making reference to Greece, it doesn't mean native cultures cease to be practiced.

Part of culture or traditional common shared values is religion. If someone changes that they no longer share a common value therefore they dont fit into their ethnos.

Part of culture is religion, but when basically all other aspects of culture are shared, including language, then their true ethno-linguistic heritage can hardly be denied, especially when they themselves identify as Macedonians.

That is why Albanians and Macedonians have a flawed outlook into how they view their counterparts by saying even muslim ones fit the grade. The only way to justify this view is to then imply some type of genetic purity, but we all know that doesnt hold any weight.

No need to justify it through genetic purity, because ancestry, culture and language demonstrate more than enough. Macedonian Muslims only accepted Islam around the 19th century.

If Slavic is a linguistic term and not ethnos by your own view than they are considered Slavic speaking Greeks.

That is like saying Slavic-speaking Hungarians instead of Slovaks from Hungary. It's stupid. Those people are descendants of Macedonians who emigrated from a part of Macedonian territory that was annexed by Greece.

I was taking your and other posters word for it when I made that comment. Im sure there were some harsh policies put in place in Macedonia at times due to political events or as collateral damage from the Greco-Bulgarian fallout but thats about it.

You don't need to take our word on it, the evidence is there and clear.

Islam will override any type of ethnic ties at any given time. Their religion takes precedence so to try to include those people into your ethnos is impossible. Its just hopeless and will not work.

Time will tell, but I see no need to deny them their Macedonian heritage if they choose to embrace it.

[Carlin]

and this is in 1916,,,,,,

Nice TM. Can I please make use of your stuff/research material? Thanks.

[momce]

Greece are the same as being confused. The "greek culture" is almost nonexistant and is just a forgery invented by Church officials, business circles and administrative classes.

[TrueMacedonian]

Nice TM. Can I please make use of your stuff/research material? Thanks.

Sure Carlin. Have at it.

[George S.]

Greeks are pretty low they can't admit who they are they are constantly changing.Whether it be a flag,symbol,or the name of a country.

[Carlin]

Sure Carlin. Have at it.

Thanks, appreciate it.

Btw, how do I attach entire screenshots 'inside' the page? Do you use/recommend anything?

[tchaiku]

They truly have a identity crisis no doubt about it. The modern Greeks hate the Albanians with a passion but they don't realize that they are only hating their own people.
Very sad that they can't accept and embrace there true identity the Albanian identity.

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