The Ancient Macedonian Language

[Risto the Great]

Just an odd thought ... if we are to assume Philip means "lover of horses", and I don't ... what are the chances of a translated name in Macedonian such as Milkon. As an example, someone quite dear to me was born and named as Slobodanka but modern oppressive societies in Greece ensured she was referred to as Eleftheria. Both meaning "Freedom" in Macedonian vs Greek.

[osiris]

good post napoleon we may never know exactly how the surviving ancient names were pronounced by their native speakers as all we have now are the greek versions. i remember seeing the persian version of darius and its very different enough to not be recognizable as darius. what always amuses me is when greeks borrow and in the greek case its half of their vocabularyit doesnt matter and it is meaningless, but if anyother nation borrows from the greeks its conclusive proof of greekness.

surely if greek was as influential as they mainatian it would naturally impact linguistically and culturally on other people just as egypt and phoenicia did on greece, but i dont see any egyptian or lebanese claiming anything as theirs, while modern wanabees claim everything and anything rgardless of its origins.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Just an odd thought ... if we are to assume Philip means "lover of horses", and I don't ... what are the chances of a translated name in Macedonian such as Milkon. As an example, someone quite dear to me was born and named as Slobodanka but modern oppressive societies in Greece ensured she was referred to as Eleftheria. Both meaning "Freedom" in Macedonian vs Greek.

Interesting suggestion RTG, I am not sure if it would have been applied in the ancient era, but then again, we can't know for certain either way.

The Thracian Pulpudeva produces some interesting information also, 'dava' and 'deva' are common suffixes of Thracian placenames, which are very similar to 'ovo', 'evo', 'ova' and 'eva' in Slavic.

Thacian toponyms found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

Pulpudeva, Zisnudeva, Cumudeva, Markodava, Pelendova, Giridava, Sucidava, Predava

Slavic toponyms, hydronyms, personal names and surnames found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

Kicevo, Brezovo, Tetovo, Trnava, Bratislava, Morava, Petreva, Mileva, Borislav, Voislava.


It seems that at some point the 'd' in 'deva' was dropped where now it is present as 'eva' and 'ava', and in other variants such as ovo, ova and evo.

In Slavic, the 'eva' suffix is reserved largely for female surnames, such as Petreva, Mileva, Gorgieva, etc. The 'ev' and 'ov' suffixes are common from Russia to Macedonia, this is a purely Slavic suffix.

There are no other linguistic groups that use such suffixes except the Slavic-speakers, who live exactly where the Thracians of the ancient period had existed. There can be no doubt that the Thracian language is related to the Balto-Slavic linguistic group, our language has ancient roots.

[I of Macedon]

Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought I read somewhere that the true form in macedonian in ancient times of Philips name specifically 'PH' is 'B'

[osiris]

its true in macedonian it was pronounced as billip not phillip.

[Demos]

Most of the following names do not appear to be used prior to the reign of the ancient Macedonians, although I haven't researched extensively, so if anybody can shed some more information please do.

• Phillip
• Parmenion
• Attalus
• Nicanor
• Philotas
• Bolon
• Antigonus
• Antioch
• Seleucus
• Cassander
• Lysimachus
• Amyntas
• Berenika
• Alexander (Apparently used alternatively with Paris by Homer)

All these names have Greek etymology. Some of these names are just two Greek words combined like Phillipos, Alexandros, Lysimachus, Antigonus. You cannot get more Greek than this.

The Romans which were clearly another nation and spoke Latin had Latin names and their names did not have Greek etymology or meaning in Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

All these names have Greek etymology. Some of these names are just two Greek words combined like Phillipos, Alexandros, Lysimachus, Antigonus. You cannot get more Greek than this.

The Romans which were clearly another nation and spoke Latin had Latin names and their names did not have Greek etymology or meaning in Greek.

Read the whole thread as your comments above are addressed earlier, there are some interesting discussions also that you need to address which are in relation to what you wrote above. We wont be repeating ourselves for you anymore.

[TrueMacedonian]

Most of the following names do not appear to be used prior to the reign of the ancient Macedonians, although I haven't researched extensively, so if anybody can shed some more information please do.

• Phillip
• Parmenion
• Attalus
• Nicanor
• Philotas
• Bolon
• Antigonus
• Antioch
• Seleucus
• Cassander
• Lysimachus
• Amyntas
• Berenika
• Alexander (Apparently used alternatively with Paris by Homer)

I think I have three more names to add;

Cleopatra
Monime
Stratonice

[Serdarot]

Tevda
Tevdo

or ancient version

TeUta
TeUto

btw, is anyone here aware that "Ante" in several versions is massive used in the Macedonian Antropological Onomastikon?


Ante
Anto
Anton
Andon
Andre
Sande
(ka)Sandre

etc, etc...

to laught on the ignorance of our southern neighbors - you can NOT get more Macedonian than that, couse Ant-E.

I realy feel sorry for those between you who don´t understand Macedonian VERY GOOD.

When you learn Makedonski, you will understand the meaning of "E".

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ante
Anto
Anton
Andon
Andre
Sande
(ka)Sandre

etc, etc...

Serdarot, most of the above names are also used by others.

[Homer MakeDonski]

I m sure if you dig deeper in Macedonian soil,you ll find some Goran, Zlatko and Stoiko ....

Oh those ancient Macedonians...were identical to you...

No need for soil digging.
Enough is if only we do correct letters deviation researches into the names itself
Ex.
Name of Antigon Gonata
Antigon reading from right to left
*nogitna
*Negotna
Negotino
- city in R.of Macedonia
Gonata reading from right to left
*Atanog
there is something called sibilarization, involving shift of ''k'', ''g'' and ''h'' into alveolar ''c'', ''z'' and ''s'' in front of ''e'' and ''i''
and Third (aka second sibilarization), involving shift of ''k'', ''g'', ''h'' into ''c'', ''z'', ''s'' ''after'' ''e'', ''i'' and ''a''.
Because case is that we have Gonata ->*Atanog
*Atanag
according to second sibilarization
g->z
*Atanag
*Atanaz
And here we are
Atanaz
ez. in todays Macedonian is reading in the word exit
exit or izlez
and the verb - to walk out -izleguvanje
izleZ
izleGuva


Atanaz
z-s
Atanas

So fare Antigon Gonata or Negotino Atanas
should be read as
Atanas of Negotino
parallel is
Aleksandar or Philip of Macedon as historical references telling us about .
Conclusion:
Instead of your os/us suffixed adds at Antigone Gonata presented his name as "Antigonus" and himself strait as Greek
(Good Lord,not even as Helen ),you have to face letters deviation trough millenniums
If you don't you are about to be accounted as Nobelist .

[Soldier of Macedon]

HM,

The name Athanasios comes from the Hellenic word 'athanatos' (immortal), which ultimately derives from 'thanatos' (death). This name became widespread as a result of Christianity, which is probably where later Macedonian versions appear as Atanas, Tanase, Nase, etc.

Although palatalization can assist in explaining some likely cognates, I think there is another characteristic that features as the main factor in examples such as 'negotino'. Over time, Macedonian seems to have developed a feature of 'letter re-arrangement'. For example, from Greek to Macedonian, there is Antigonea -> Negotino, and Megalo -> Golemo, within Macedonian dialects there is Kade -> Deka. The definitive article suffix may also result from this feature, if examples such as the following are accepted: To dete -> Deteto.

[Risto the Great]

Although palatalization can assist in explaining some likely cognates, I think there is another characteristic that features as the main factor in examples such as 'negotino'. Over time, Macedonian seems to have developed a feature of 'letter re-arrangement'. For example, from Greek to Macedonian, there is Antigonea -> Negotino, and Megalo -> Golemo, within Macedonian dialects there is Kade -> Deka. The definitive article suffix may also result from this feature, if examples such as the following are accepted: To dete -> Deteto.

These are very reasonable assumptions.
I hope you might be able to look into this a little more for us SoM.

[Pelister]

Isn't it interesting how a word spelt backwards can mean the same thing.

nogitna
*Negotna

I want to believe that this is how it happened. If Macedonians spelt their words right to left like other ancient people, and Greeks left to right perhaps it explains some things in the transliteration.

[Soldier of Macedon]

These are very reasonable assumptions.
I hope you might be able to look into this a little more for us SoM.

Risto, I intend to, there are also other examples that can be demonstrated which produce some revealing results.

One of the most significant distinctions between the Hellenic and Paleo-Balkan linguistic groups is the development of Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants bh, dh and gh. In Hellenic, they develop as unvoiced consonants:

bh -> ph (φ)
dh -> th (θ)
gh -> kh (χ)

However, Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, Paeonian and Phrygian, which are Paleo-Balkan languages, take a different path of development, where the aspirated consonant largely becomes a voiced stop. It is significant to point out that the Baltic and Slavic languages adopted the same sound change as the Paleo-Balkan languages:

bh -> b (β)
dh -> d (δ)
gh -> g (γ)

All of these differences generate changes in pronounciation, as indicated in the below comparison of cognates between the two opposing linguistic groups along with the modern Macedonian and Hellenic languages.

[Branch, rod] - γάρκαν, garkan (Anc. Maced.) -> granka (Mod. MK)
[Branch, rod] - χάραξ - kharax (Anc. Attic) -> (?) ravdos (Mod. GK)

[To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> βερε, bere (Anc. Maced.) -> bere (Mod. MK)
[To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> φερε, phere (Anc. Attic) -> fere (Mod. GK)

[To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Murderer] - δανῶν, danon (Anc. Maced.) -> [Drowned or Strangled] - udaven (Mod. MK)
[To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Dead] - θανών, thanon (Anc. Attic) -> [Death] - thanatos (Mod. GK)

Modern Hellenic generally displays the same characteristics as ancient Hellenic (ph/f, th, kh), however, modern Macedonian too displays the same characteristics as ancient Macedonian (b, d, g), at least where it concerns these words and consonants. This would therefore mean that the ancient Macedonians pronounced the name of their country as Μακεδονία with a hardened voiced stop d, just like in Macedonian today, and unlike either ancient or modern Hellenic sound laws which produce the th and dh consonants.