"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[Amphipolis]

Roughly half of the ΣΚΗΝΙΤΕΣ ΒΛΑΧΟΙ-Vlachs settled in Corinthia, 20% of them in Achaia, 10% in Argolida, etc.

Note that these ΣΚΗΝΙΤΕΣ ΒΛΑΧΟΙ were a particular and specific group of "Vlachs" (tent-dwellers). They were 'recent' arrivals, and different from others in the area. There were other "older Vlachs" in Corinthia (and all other areas of Morea), who were actually bilingual and spoke Greek (even at the time of their arrival to Morea).

Οι βλάχοι που εγκαταστάθηκαν στην Καρυά μιλούσαν ελληνικά και δεν ήταν σκηνίτες, σε αντίθεση με τους νεότερους βλάχους, που ήρθαν στην περιοχή της Ζήρειας κατά το 1800 και αργότερα στην Καρυά και στα ʼνω Τρίκαλα. Αυτοί μιλούσαν και κάποια Ρουμανική διάλεκτο και έφτιαχναν το κονάκι τους στην περιοχή που έβοσκαν τα κοπάδια τους.

The Vlachs settled in Karya spoke Greek and were not ΣΚΗΝΙΤΕΣ, as opposed to the younger Vlachs, who came to the Zireia region in 1800s and later to Karya and to Trikala. They also spoke some Romanian dialect...

URL:
http://www.korinthia.net/dim-xylokastrou--karya.htm

Actually, the link (which is... a tourist guide) clarifies that these older "Vlachs" were not ethnic-Vlachs but Greek colonists from Vlachia that were transferred to Peloponnesus after an emperor's decree in 746 AD.


===

[Carlin]

I would need to do more research.

As I mentioned in post #4 of this thread, author Zef Mirdita in his work "Vlasi, polinomichan narod" (on page 257) refers to Achaia as Lower Wallachia (Donja Vlashka).

Here is the exact quote from Zef Mirdita, page 257 (in Croatian):

Vec od XI. stoljeca bizantski autori i drugi povijesni izvori citavo ovo podrucje tretiraju kao vlasko. Tako se Tesalija (Helada) u pocetku XIII. stoljeca pocinje zvati Velika Vlahija, Etolija i Akarnanija Mala Vlahija itd. Osim tih etnogeografskih naziva postoje Gornja i Donja Vlahija, koje se odnose na Vlahe Pinda i Ahaje. Oni su zapravo posvjedoceni kako na Halkidiku, na planinama Rodopa, na azijskom dijelu Bospora, u Atici, Eubeji, na Peloponezu, tako i na Krfu i drugim Jonskim otocima.

English:

Already since the 11th century byzantine authors and other historical sources treat all these areas as Vlach. Thus, Thessaly (Helada) at the beginning of the 13th century began to be called Great Vlachia, Aetolia and Akarnania Little Vlachia, etc. Apart from these ethno-geographic terms there are Upper and Lower Vlachia, which refer to Vlachs of Pindus and Achaia. They are also found in Chalkidiki, on the mountains of Rhodope, in the Asian part of the Bosphorus, in Attica, in Euboea, in the Peloponnese, and in Corfu and other Ionian islands.

[Carlin]

Actually, the link (which is... a tourist guide) clarifies that these older "Vlachs" were not ethnic-Vlachs but Greek colonists from Vlachia that were transferred to Peloponnesus after an emperor's decree in 746 AD.


===

(Yes.) I can't say I'm terribly surprised that this article defines these bilingual Vlachs not as ethnic Vlachs, but as Greek colonists.

[Amphipolis]

(Yes.) I can't say I'm terribly surprised that this article defines these bilingual Vlachs not as ethnic Vlachs, but as Greek colonists.

First of all this is not an article (which suggests you shouldn't have used it the first place). Secondly, the Greek people from Vlachia are not presented as bilinguals; the bilinguals are the real Vlach "tent dwellers" nomads (you have translated it wrongly).

[Carlin]

First of all this is not an article (which suggests you shouldn't have used it the first place). Secondly, the Greek people from Vlachia are not presented as bilinguals; the bilinguals are the real Vlach "tent dwellers" nomads (you have translated it wrongly).

As you might have noticed, I am using the term 'article' loosely.

I am sure that this is the explanation, as provided in the tourist guide - and as you explained. My contention is that it's an incorrect interpretation.

[Carlin]

Kryoneri, Corinthia, before 1955: Matzani. The first name of the settlement was Mergeni. It is 42 km southwest of Corinth, built at 740 m height, in the slopes of Velisa mountain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryoneri,_Corinthia

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%81%CF%85%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B9_%CE%9A%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82

Μέχρι το 1912 οι άνδρες φορούσαν φουστανέλες και οι γυναίκες βλάχικα μισοφόρια, σεγκούνες, κεντητές ποδιές και μεταξωτά μαντήλια.

Until 1912, the men wore Fustanellas and women wore Vlach costumes, embroidered aprons, etc.

Regarding the term Matzani or Matsani:

The word Matsani denotes a village or pasture situated between two rivers, which fits into the geomorphology of our village. Most probably the name was given by the Franks who had conquered the western and northern Peloponnese (1204 - 1430). In 1405, Theodore (Θεόδωρος ο Α' ο Παλαιολόγος) allowed 10.000 Albanian Christians to enter the Peloponnese with their flocks. This was because the Peloponnese had a large population loss due to a black plague epidemic. That is why many toponyms of our village have Arvanite names. .... The Arvanite language, songs and customs were maintained until today.

From URL:

http://dim-kryon.kor.sch.gr/back_vil.html

Repost of #60

Σικυών εστιν η χώρα των Ελλαδικών Βλάχων

[Carlin]

Vlachs are Morias

An Italian writer of the fifteenth century calls the Roumanians (Wallachs) MORIAS.

URL's:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=B-7z6nbzSBkC&pg=PA195&dq=Wallachs+Morias&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Wallachs%20Morias&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=lqMNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=Wallachs+Morias&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs3eq28ZHUAhVoyoMKHTjGAw4Q6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=Wallachs%20Morias&f=false

'Morias' then appears to be just one of the countless names/terms of Romance/Vlach populations and tribes. Let's not forget, that in contemporary documents, the words Morea (Moria) and Romania are used interchangeably.

[Carlin]

Βλάχοι από το Βαλτέτσι - Vlachs from Valtetsi

Valtetsi (Greek: Βαλτέτσι) is a village in the municipal unit of Valtetsi, Arcadia, Greece. It is located in the Central Peloponessus in what is called Ορεινή Αρκαδία (Greek: Mountainous Arcadia) at a distance of 12 km west of Tripoli and an altitude of 1,050 m.

It was built around 1600 AD by "Ethnic Greeks" from Himara in Northern Epirus who escaping from the Turkish attacks, settled at first in the North Western parts of the Peloponessus to continue their final destination to the Arcadian hilltops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtetsi_(village)

http://arcadia.ceid.upatras.gr/arkadia/places/baltetsi.htm

Who were these Ethnic Greeks and what might be the origin of the 'term' Valtetsi?

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%BF+%CE%92%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9

https://books.google.ca/books?id=kmtoAAAAMAAJ&q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%BF+%CE%92%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9&dq=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%BF+%CE%92%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR5N2vtpvUAhXk6YMKHa5kA-4Q6AEIIjAA

https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=bks&q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%BF+%CE%92%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9&gws_rd=cr&ei=aWQvWbDIC4TojwS5h4hI#q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%BF+%CE%92%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9&tbm=bks&start=0

Using "Mesaiōnikes selides tēs Argolidos, Arkadias, Korinthias, Attikēs" above, we see that the inhabitants of Peloponnesian village Βλαχαιΐκα (Vlachaiika) affirm that they are Vlachs from Valtetsi (from Valea, which in Vlach means: valley) (Βάλεα, Βλαχ.: κοιλάδα).

The origin of 'Valtetsi' is then Aromanian/Vlach; it was established by Vlach-speakers, part of which later established (another) village Vlachaiika.

Quote:
Βλαχαιΐκα. Νεώτερο τοπωνύμιο, χωριό διάσπαρτο άνατολικά τοΰ θερμησίου. Οί κάτοικοι του βεβαιώνουν δτι είναι Βλάχοι από το Βαλτέτσι (Βάλεα, Βλαχ.: κοιλάδα).

[Carlin]

1) Mesaiōnikes selides tēs Argolidos, Arkadias, Korinthias, Attikēs, I.E. Peppas, 1990

Snippet view (as it's only a snippet view we only see the following) -

"Ολα τά παραπάνω τοπωνύμια υποδηλώνουν τήν ΰπαρξη Βλάχων στήν Αργολίδα από τής έποχής τής ... "

"All the above place names suggest the existence of Vlachs in Argolida since the epoch of ... "

URL:

https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD+%CE%91%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82

2) The screenshot below comes from Μελέται περί του βίου και της γλώσσης του ελληνικού λαού: Παραδόσεις - Μέρος Β΄, by Νικόλαος Πολίτης (Nikolaos Politis).



Page 738 -

"And Stackelberg (..) states that the Vlachs of Arcadia do not regard ancient Hellenes as their ancestors, but foreigners, ancestors of the Franks..."

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0tcQBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA738&dq=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82+Stackelberg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG_p2K3pzUAhXBy4MKHX9lBGcQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9%20%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82%20Stackelberg&f=false

[Carlin]

1) Σπαρτιά Αχαΐας - Spartia Achaia --> This village was most likely founded by Vlachs from Aspropotamos.

URL:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%AC_%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%90%CE%B1%CF%82

Spartia is a small village in Achaia. The old (original) name of the village was Grevena, Greveno (Γρεβενά, Γρεβενό). It was subsequently renamed to Spartia.

(From wikipedia) the village Greveno was founded by "Aspropotamites who descended to Achaia after the rebellion of the Vlachs of Kalambaka against the Turks in 1611".

2) Δάφνη Αχαΐας - Dafni Achaia --> old name Στρέζοβα / Strezova

URL:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AC%CF%86%CE%BD%CE%B7_%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%90%CE%B1%CF%82

Until 1928, the village was called Strezova, a name of Slavic origin, meaning "oak tree". However, there are also variants of Armanian (Vlach) origins of this name, but also an Italian origin of the name.

[tchaiku]

1) The following is a quote, from the link provided underneath:

"Modern Greece is by no means related either genetically or culturally to the ancient cosmos and the people who once occupied this land. The modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs) which in the process of time mingled with northern africans, armenians and other tribes of Anatolia, not to mention the francs and the venetians who were also dominantly present in this land."

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=480

Who are those northern Africans that you speak of? Do you have any information about them?

[Carlin]

This is significant because we see that Vlach was spoken in Vlachokerassia (until recently), as well as in some Kynourian villages (note that Kynouria is part of Tsakonia!).

[Carlin]

Στους Βλάχους των ολυμποχωρίων του Άργους της Πελοποννήσου αναφέρεται και ο Νικόλαος Κασομούλης στο έργο του Ενθυμήματα στρατιωτικά.

In his Memoirs Nikolaos Kasomoulis mentions the Vlachs of Argos area, in the Peloponnese.

[Amphipolis]

Carlin,

if one googles "Vlach villages of Peloponnese" in Greek just to check why he's never heard of any, there's only one! (1) google result, your thread. Your information is really a TOP SECRET here in Greece!

https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82+%CE%A0%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%85&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=3yE8WerXBsjO8geAtqC4CA#q=%22%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82+%CE%A0%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%85%22

These villages are real ones (Vlahokerasia for instance), they have websites, facebook pages, e-mails, dozens of you-tube videos and local cultural clubs. I recommend you contact them and ask them if they are, or ever were Vlachs, if they are anyhow related to Vlachs, if Vlach was until recently really spoken there, if they have ever heard who the Vlachs are etc.


==

[tchaiku]

Carlin,

if one googles "Vlach villages of Peloponnese" in Greek just to check why he's never heard of any, there's only one! (1) google result, your thread. Your information is really a TOP SECRET here in Greece!

https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82+%CE%A0%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%85&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=3yE8WerXBsjO8geAtqC4CA#q=%22%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82+%CE%A0%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%85%22

These villages are real ones (Vlahokerasia for instance), they have websites, facebook pages, e-mails, dozens of you-tube videos and local cultural clubs. I recommend you contact them and ask them if they are, or ever were Vlachs, if they are anyhow related to Vlachs, if Vlach was until recently really spoken there, if they have ever heard who the Vlachs are etc.


==

I believe Albanian element is the most dominant in modern Peloponnesians in my opinion

-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.

I will add more about Vlach grecophones in Southern Albania.