Greek policeman arrested over immigrant muggings

[EricTheRed]

You have a really funny perception of reality. First of all, I've been reading that the official Greek-Cyprus Republic is about to drill for gas, together with Israel, using a US company. I've also read about the Noble Dina exercise, between US, Israel and Greece, against a supposed Turkish attack on Cypriot installations. But in your fantasy realm, Turkey already owns Cyprus!

About the Imia crisis, care to explain why the US didnt just give Turkey all the Aegean at that point? What reason do they have to threaten the far weaker Greece? Or is the opposite totally unthinkable? Let me tell you my version-the Turks would have probably won that conflict. But the US simply stopped them immediately, preserving the status quo. Compare the 2 versions and honestly consider which is the one closest to reality, keeping in mind Turkey's increasing ties with the Muslim world and aggression towards Israel.

Btw, what evidence do you have that NATO is planning to dismantle Greece? As I recall, at the latest Chicago summit even the US dropped the entire ''Macedonia joins NATO'' issue, despite the Hague decision(many thx to Macedonia's goverment for going to court to give even more credibility to Greece's diplomatic masterpiece, the Interim Accord). Greece's standing in NATO is actually better now in 2008, since no1 is pressuring us except Turkey(we're used to that though), while Macedonia can not even count on US pressure at this point.

I have to add that while in Greece's case only big countries like US, Germany etc are able to dismantle it, in Macedonia's case, Albania and Bulgaria can do the same job. Macedonia and Greece are on a totally different level, even now. ROM should manage to fend off the Albanians (second weakest country in balkans, after Macedonia) first, and then maybe have a wet dream about touching Greece.

Why did the US offer Greece 400+ M1 MBTs for free, if they wanted to give the entire country to Turkey? Maybe they wanted to provide the Turks with a bigger challenge?

I repeat again: lets live peacefully. Just forget about reclaiming Aegean Macedonia for the time being, cause it's surely going to backfire and bring misery to everyone, especially the Macedonians. Maintaining the current status quo is the best Macedonia can do at his point.

[momce]

You have a really funny perception of reality. First of all, I've been reading that the official Greek-Cyprus Republic is about to drill for gas, together with Israel, using a US company. I've also read about the Noble Dina exercise, between US, Israel and Greece, against a supposed Turkish attack on Cypriot installations. But in your fantasy realm, Turkey already owns Cyprus!

About the Imia crisis, care to explain why the US didnt just give Turkey all the Aegean at that point? What reason do they have to threaten the far weaker Greece? Or is the opposite totally unthinkable? Let me tell you my version-the Turks would have probably won that conflict. But the US simply stopped them immediately, preserving the status quo. Compare the 2 versions and honestly consider which is the one closest to reality, keeping in mind Turkey's increasing ties with the Muslim world and aggression towards Israel.

Btw, what evidence do you have that NATO is planning to dismantle Greece? As I recall, at the latest Chicago summit even the US dropped the entire ''Macedonia joins NATO'' issue, despite the Hague decision(many thx to Macedonia's goverment for going to court to give even more credibility to Greece's diplomatic masterpiece, the Interim Accord). Greece's standing in NATO is actually better now in 2008, since no1 is pressuring us except Turkey(we're used to that though), while Macedonia can not even count on US pressure at this point.

I have to add that while in Greece's case only big countries like US, Germany etc are able to dismantle it, in Macedonia's case, Albania and Bulgaria can do the same job. Macedonia and Greece are on a totally different level, even now. ROM should manage to fend off the Albanians (second weakest country in balkans, after Macedonia) first, and then maybe have a wet dream about touching Greece.

Why did the US offer Greece 400+ M1 MBTs for free, if they wanted to give the entire country to Turkey? Maybe they wanted to provide the Turks with a bigger challenge?

I repeat again: lets live peacefully. Just forget about reclaiming Aegean Macedonia for the time being, cause it's surely going to backfire and bring misery to everyone, especially the Macedonians. Maintaining the current status quo is the best Macedonia can do at his point.

Yes, Turkey can capture the rest of Cyprus in a few hours. It has superiority over greece in the aegean and thrace on all fronts actually. Bulgaria and Albania cant do anything as they dont run their own affairs. Same for greece. Unless they all go rogue which they are too weak to do and they will get bitch slapped. I wouldnt take the Israeli thing too seriously as they tend play games with almost everyone. I never said war is an option just to loosen strangleholds. Now we have political party in greece and cultural events etc so things can take off from there hopefully for our rights and territories(not just us but also chams and thracian turks, pomaks etc). Honestly, greece isnt even on anyones radar screen in these organisations because everything is so low quality. They are more like a pain in the ass. Dont think breaking up the country isnt an option if they resist the TROIKA either.

[momce]

US will sell anything to anyone for money. Doesnt mean they are your friend. Those MBTs are all used tanks from Iraq etc whos quality is probably dubious. Plus the US will always side with Turkey. Tell me why did greece build a huge wall and ditch on its border with turkey? Probably because they know their position is hopeless there. Turkey has plans to build naval facilities in Albania also. Right now greece is being raped by globalisation cannot really defend herself. Apparently they cant even feed their soldier and fill their stuff with gas(most of which was stolen by their politician crooks) etc. So no greece in bad shape, really bad shape

i would add "greece" was divided in two for a while during WWI almost had a civil war(see the Macedonian Front) and if not for cold war contingencies would have probably lost Eiprus, Macedonia and Thrace after WWII(because no one wanted greek administration except for the grecophones and anatolians--see the Vlachs had their own state in Pindus during WWII, also the Macedonian Liberation War was going on)...and thats all because greece is a fake country

[momce]

[QUOTE=momce;137393]US will sell anything to anyone for money. Doesnt mean they are your friend. Those MBTs are all used tanks from Iraq etc whos quality is probably dubious. Plus the US will always side with Turkey. Tell me why did greece build a huge wall and ditch on its border with turkey? Probably because they know their position is hopeless there. Turkey has plans to build naval facilities in Albania also. Right now greece is being raped by globalisation cannot really defend herself. Apparently they cant even feed their soldier and fill their stuff with gas(most of which was stolen by their politician crooks) etc. So no greece in bad shape, really bad shape...if a few KLAs were to pop up in greece greece doesnt have the resources or training to deal with that

i would add "greece" was divided in two for a while during WWI almost had a civil war(see the Macedonian Front) and if not for cold war contingencies would have probably lost Eiprus, Macedonia and Thrace after WWII(because no one wanted greek administration except for the grecophones and anatolians--see the Vlachs had their own state in Pindus during WWII, also the Macedonian Liberation War was going on)...and thats all because greece is a fake country

[EricTheRed]

First of all, the border fence was planned in order to tackle illegal immigration, since almost 90% of illegal immigrants towards European countries pass through our borders with Turkey(and ofc the latter does everything possible to keep them coming). It was never intended for defense vs Turkey, its not the 19th century any more, a ditch cant stop an invading army, thats primary school material...

Who told you that they cant feed their soldiers? I have 3 good friends doing their service right now, and there is no problem with food. The oil used by high value military assets comes from the few refineries in Greece(and probably OKTA, since its a greek refinery after all), it's not imported, so Greek jets still fly alright(buddy currently serving in air force told me). Real life evidence vs rumors=reality wins.

Greece was divided between 2 Greek governments, same happened with lots of other countries at some point(e.g. US, Spain, Germany). However, the greek state was never demolished since 1830. Okey, the Macedonia Liberation Front existed during WW2, I wont deny that. However, the Vlachs did certainly not have a state of their own. They were already well incorporated into the greek population. About the muslim albanians in Epirus, they did try to grab it collaborating with the Italians., but, before Germany's attack, the Greek army in Albania defeated the Italians, and took care of the seperatist muslims...

As far as I know, except for the destruction in Cyprus(the greek junta was the initial aggressor, most greeks recognize that), the Americans havent handed any Greek lands to Turkey. There were and still are opportunities for them to destroy Greece(and almost every other minor country in the world, mind you), but I assure you that, in the unlikely event that they do, Macedonia wont get any spoils.

Besides fantasizing, think, the US didnt even break up Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Both of them were Muslim dictatorships, and even then they feared public opinion and global reactions. I really cant find any logical explanation for what makes you believe they will destroy Greece specifically... What saved Macedonia from Greece in the first place, will save Greece from Turkey. (Btw the US did support Greece directly in the attempt to annex Smyrna etc, vs Turkey. So much for''the US will always side with Turkey.)

I have to agree that Greece is currently in a very bad shape, but be realistic... Greece has seen worse times at the past, but the country went through these far worse storms territorially unscathed(excluding the loss of Eastern Thrace in 1922, both northern Cyprus and Asia minor lands were not officially greek territory). I dont see any evidence that Turkey is willing to move against the Republic of Cyprus, an EU member. Dont underestimate the public reaction a war on EU members will produce.

Anyways, I see this discussion is getting us nowhere. We agree that we disagree. Lets just see what will happen in the future.

[Stojacanec]

how can you possibly think we will support a peaceful solution....?


I personally hope for our peaceful times to continue. Lets all just prosper again and solve everything peacefully.

Right etr, you want everyone to prosper however you admit that grease created the dillusional name dispute in the hope to weaken Macedonia.

then you admit that grease doesn't want a solution because it is a more powerful state.

you admit the avg grk doesn't want a solution

then you contradict yourself by saying you want a peaceful solution.

Well, as for the latter you can't be a true modern grk.

as for for former, no wander your collective country is all over the place with the highest debt to gdp ratio in the world!

[momce]

Independant Macedonia would be better for everyone even greekos LOL

[momce]

the greece is a discredited country...no one believes anything it says or its positions...remember Bush was very displeased with greece veto on Macedonia and various of its policies, energies etc, aegean...considering the state it in now greece should be rolling up in a ball in the corner of the room lol...so slowly things will change on various fronts...up to now greece had won the propaganda war but slowly people are realising huge areas of greece do not belong to it...

[EricTheRed]

Right etr, you want everyone to prosper however you admit that grease created the dillusional name dispute in the hope to weaken Macedonia.

then you admit that grease doesn't want a solution because it is a more powerful state.

you admit the avg grk doesn't want a solution

Ofc the average greek wouldnt want the ''solution'' many here seek, which is actually the destruction of Greece. That's not a solution, its a rather evil wet dream.

then you contradict yourself by saying you want a peaceful solution.

No contradiction there, I want a solution, not the destruction of my country. Ofc I wont be peaceful if any attempts are made to break up my country, as many of you hope.

Well, as for the latter you can't be a true modern grk.

This statement is so vague I dont know where to begin from...
1. What is a ''true'' modern greek?
2. How can you discern one without knowing him/her IRL?
3. As I understand, most here claim that there are no greeks left nowadays. Modern=today. So, how can one be a ''true'' modern greek, if he/she isnt greek in the first place?
4. How do you know what I am? I only said I am greek, period.

as for for former, no wander your collective country is all over the place with the highest debt to gdp ratio in the world!

Actually, avoid using bold without researching whatever you want to emphasize on. You see, Japan is the country with the highest debt to gdp ration in the world. And if we consider foreign owned debt, check these links out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._external_debt , http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959/The_...Debtor_Nations

While Greece's ratio is indeed one of the worst, it is not the worst. And btw, Greece is still considered a rather large economy compared to her size:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29

Even after losing more than 25% of it's GDP. Greece's economic output is now close to countries like Denmark and UAE. While Macedonia can me compared with Mali and New Caledonia.

Keeping that in mind, Greece's 3 Macedonia regions alone(Central, Western, Eastern) have a combined GDP of $64,406 billion(2009 statistics, should be reduced to something like 50 billion.
Per capita, even in this maelstrom of crisis, these regions' most hard hit cities still exceed RoM's average income, even with a small margin
(Pella-the most hard hit city, has an average per capita income of 12.419 dollars, and the average stands at around 14.000 dollars).

Lets compare these statistics to the Republic: Macedonia currently has a total GDP of $10.198 billion, and a per capita income of $4,935(nominal, as the data I found on Greece are nominal as well).

As you see, greek Macedonia(bored of typing regions etc) has 5 times more total GDP and per capita than the Republic of Macedonia, even after 4 years of recession(in 2009, total GDP was $64,406 billion as I wrote before, and per capita was $25,075).

Just for the sake of comparison, a country that has 5 times the GDP of Greece is Russia. Do you see Greece annexing Russia any time soon???
THATS how big the difference between Macedonia and greek Macedonia territories is.
Btw, I have read many things about how Turkey can ''buy'' Greece and how completely it dominates the latter economically. Turkey's economy is actually 2,5 times the economy of greece.Consider however that this ''all over the place country''(i have to agree....) has an economy 16 times larger than Macedonia's. Its like comparing the greek economy to Germany(11 times the greek economy actually, not 16).

You will ask, why compare? If Greece could never ever touch Turkey, who has an economy 2 times larger, how can Macedonia even dream of touching Greece, with a 16 times larger economy?How could Macedonia possibly annex a territory that even in times of crises has an economy 5 times larger? The Macedonians living in Greece have a far better standard of living than Macedonians in RoM even now. There would be a total mess. Without mentioning the 2-2,5 million of Greeks currently living in these regions(I think there are currently 250.000-300.000 max Macedonians remaining in Greece[very optimistic calculation]).

The whole point is: Instead of bashing Greece, check out RoM's economy and make it comparable to greek Macedonia at least. If you check this table:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29
you will realize that Greece has a rather large economy in the global scale, a country that you will hear in the news about(unfortunately its bad publicity right now...). Cant say the same for Macedonia though, whose name is only heard in the context of the naming dispute. You should realize that if countries like Libya and Syria(Muslim, Africa/MidEast, Civil war, much smaller economies) didnt break up, then Greece(EU, NATO, OSCE, Eurozone, far larger economy, NO civil war, Christian) is politically secure.
As for me, while having said all this, I repeat that I sympathize with your cause to have the Macedonians in Greece protected and recognized. I also agree that Macedonia should be called Macedonia.
However, I noticed that many here really seem to underestimate Greece a lot, something which may deter a peaceful resolution if the same view is shared by Macedonian voters in the Republic. So, I had to clarify some things.

[makedonche]

EricTheRed
I too want a solution to these issues you mention and don't wish any harm to any people. I think the permanent solution would be easier to achieve if both countries were on a level playing field so they can both start from scratch and have new beginnings! To that end what I suggest is that both countries go to their creditors and pay their debts off so they can free themselves from the enforced financial enslavement that is currently restraining them. I estimate Republic of Macedonia to be able to achieve this in 3 years based on the figures you have provided, how long before Greece is in the same position ( based on the figures you have provided) ?

[EricTheRed]

To answer your question,in theory it would take many more years than Macedonia. But do you seriously think Macedonia can be free of debt in 3 years?? To my knowledge, not even China or Germany(major export economies) can ever be completely free of debt. How could Macedonia or Greece ever do that? Your point was that Greece has rly lots of debt, something I dont deny, since without it we wouldnt be in this place.

For a peaceful solution to be achieved, first of all the goals should be determined. I had made a seperate thread asking specifically about Aegean Macedonia, where I saw reasonable answers. But roaming the forum I took notice that those here who dream of annexations etc may as well be more than the reasonable fellows. Many are blinded by hatred and bad-will towards Greece. While it may be justifiable, it wont get us anywhere.

When I read posts about how easily a country can supposedly disappear, coming from people who really wish for it to happen, without seeing the broader picture, I have to post a reasonable answer to their wet dreams.

Remember: in this certain thread, it was Macedonians who wished for Greece to disappear, and NOT vice versa.

So I propose:the Macedonians should first of all decide whether they want Greece to be destroyed or reasoned with, and then the Greeks will reply accordingly. Thats the first basis of a solution in any dispute, understanding each side's target.

[momce]

oh so ridiculous...based on the premise greece has any right over Macedonia whatsoever

[momce]

no we want compensation for ethnocide, cultural genocide and decades of psychological abuse from greek authorities, church and we want greek administration off our land

[Peshoshnitsa Lerin]

couldn’t have said it better myself momce! makedonija za makedoncite!

[momce]

have to say the truth we dont want to have anything to do with greece