The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Carlin]

''Tzakones'' <=> Lakones

The term Tsakonas or Tzakonas first emerges in the writings of Byzantine chroniclers who derive the ethnonym from a corruption of Lakonas, a Laconian/Lacedaemonian (Spartan)—a reference to the Doric roots of the Tsakonian language[1] and the people's relatively late conversion to Christianity and practice of traditional Hellenic customs.

And do you agree with this, ''Tzakones'' <=> Lakones?

[Carlin]

Saccania sive Romania Minor (= Tzaconia OR Romania Minor)

[Carlin]

[tchaiku]

And do you agree with this, ''Tzakones'' <=> Lakones?

I am not entirely convinced, but how did Tsakonians learned to speak a Doric dialect according to your logic?

[Carlin]

I am not entirely convinced, but how did Tsakonians learned to speak a Doric dialect according to your logic?

Let's take a look at one of the links provided in my post #518, in this thread.

URL:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313280322_Leksiceskie_osobennosti_cakonskogo_dialekta_novogreceskogo_azyka_Predvaritelnye_nabludenia_i_perspektivy_issledovania_Lexical_peculiarities_of_the_Tsakonian_dialect_of_Modern_Greek_Preliminary_observa

In the Abstract, it states:

"The paper analyzes the vocabulary of the Tsakonian dialect of Modern Greek and refutes the hypothesis about its isolation from other Greek idioms. The material reveals some similarities with the Northern Greek dialectal vocabulary, which allows us to conclude that the aforementioned dialects have been circulating in a common geographic area. Tsakonian vocabulary demonstrates almost the same foreign borrowings as other Modern Greek dialects, whereas Ancient Greek roots and neologisms provide its lexical uniqueness. The Tsakonian dialect is incomprehensible for speakers of Standard Modern Greek due to its phonetics and morphology, but not its lexical peculiarities."

What can we conclude from this?

It seems that calling Tsakonian a Doric dialect is a leap of faith, as there was no isolation from other dialects and languages. The borrowings from Romance languages (Venetian-Vlach) and other languages easily refute the assumption Tsakonian was isolated - on the contrary, it was a multilingual environment. Overall, the Greek dialects were circulating in a common (and wider) geographic area. There was always a lot of language mixing in the Balkans.

Let's not even go into the (unexplored) area of phonetics and morphology, where there seem to be matches between Tsakonian and Vlach.

More importantly, and in general, the speakers of particular language (and/or dialects) do not tell us much about the racial or ethnic origins of the people in question (this holds true the world over). Languages can be learned, and 'lost'.

A very basic analogy or example is the Haitian Creole. The majority of Creole’s lexicon derives from French, and it even contains some archaic/old French words. The speakers of Haitian Creole though are obviously Africans.

In short, even if the Tsakonians learned to speak a form of Doric this tells us nothing if they do indeed descend from Laconians.

[tchaiku]

804 (year) Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.[105]

[Carlin]

Mention of the presence of non-Greek speakers in Athens, comes from the year 1180, from an archbishop of Athens Michael Choniates (or Acominatus) who indicates that "the Athenians who came from Attica and the villages speak a barbarian language."

I have found the above in the URL provided below, where M. Acominatus is called Mihal Akominato. I suspect it is Michael Choniates, who was indeed appointed archbishop of Athens around 1175 and maintained his post until 1204. I have never seen this quotation so far, in original form. Apparently, he was a versatile writer, and composed homilies, speeches and poems, which, with his correspondence, throw considerable light upon the miserable condition of Attica and Athens at the time. Around 1217 he moved to the monastery of Vodonitsa near the Thermopylae, where he died. See wikipedia link for full details.

URL The history of Albanians in Greece

https://www.scribd.com/document/105354466/The-history-of-Albanians-in-Greece

Michael Choniates (or Acominatus) (Greek: Μιχαήλ Χωνιάτης or Ἀκομινάτος) (c. 1140 – 1220)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Choniates

[tchaiku]

Good find Carlin.

Leaving aside the subject of dating the Albanian presence in Greece, I will refer to information relating to the size of Albanian population in Greece:
-The Arvanites are approximated to have been half of the Greek population beforethe exchange of Asia Minor Greeks in 1922, according to estimates by several amateur historians… (Magliveras, Simeon, Spyros, the ontology of difference: Nationalism, localism and ethnicity in a Greek Village, Durham University, 2009, p.22)

-According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). (1975: 6)

-An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290000 and could provide 30000 fighters.(Arvanitet dhe Shqiptaret ne Luften Clirimtare te Popullit Grek, 1985)

-N. L. G. Hammond, a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view, said thatby the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of thepeople of the Peloponnese were Albanian speaker. (N.L.G. Hammond, Greece Old and New, p. 44).

-George Finlay indicated that Peloponnesus still had a majority Albanian population during mid-nineteenth century. (George Findlay, A History of Greece: The Greek Revolution, pt.1, p. 29)

In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians.(Edmond About, Greece and Greeks of present day, MDCCCLY, p. 49)

-A more conservative number comes from J. G. Hahn who in in 1854 estimated that“ofa total of one million inhabitants of Greece, about 173,000 were Albanians”. (Vasiliiev, A. A., History of the Byzantine Empire, 1964, Vol. 2, p.615)

-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.

[tchaiku]

[Carlin]

We are told that Monemvasia was a town established by the Hellenes fleeing before the Slavs who invaded the Peloponnese and Greece. We are further told (and asked to believe) that this same town resisted many invaders over the course of history, and more importantly, that the Hellenic element lived on in this small town - not mixing with anyone else - and that the predominant ethnic group in this town were the Hellenes themselves. At times, I have heard various arguments how there were no other ethnic groups present in the town.

It appears, though, that there were many Albanians residing in the town itself (from the 15th century, if not earlier). The Albanians of Morea caused much carnage and destruction, and one of the towns they raided was apparently Monemvasia. As to the Fortress, the city of Monemvasia, Andre Castellan described the upper city in 1797 as a large heap of ruins.

[Carlin]

For many centuries, the mountain range Parnon used to be called Malevo by the locals. Does this imply that the Tzakonians too called their own mountain range by this "foreign"/non-Greek term?

[Carlin]

I am returning to this as I did not have time to provide a translation earlier.

It says that are many proverbs in which, instead of saint tsakonas, we meet or encounter a saint (or notable) vlach:
"A Tzaconian, even if he becomes a saint, will only have a crappy glory (sic)."

On page 69 of the same book by Caratzas we read a poem where a 'place name', Vlachokonaka is accompanied by Tsakonaka:

"Under the Tsakonaka and Vlachokonaka,
Two priest's wives sat, two small nuns....... etc"

[tchaiku]

''And yet some travellers declare that the bulk of population of the population of Modern Greece belong to the ancient stock! On contrary I should consider 200,000, or one-fifth of entire number, a very high estimate.''

Travels in Greece and Russia
By Bayard Taylor

[Carlin]

804 (year) Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.[105]

Slav revolt in Tzakonia




(How many ethnic groups were living in tiny Tzakonia?? Were these Slavs really Slavophones?)

[Carlin]

Βλαχοχώρια της Εύβοιας, τόσο στην κεντρική και στη βόρεια Εύβοια, όσο και στην περιοχή Αλιβερίου-Κύμης, αποβλαχισμένα στις αρχές του 19ου αιώνα.

Vlach settlements in Euboea, both in the central and northern Euboea and in Kymi-Aliveri*, lost the (Vlach) language in the early 19th century.

* - Kymi-Aliveri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kymi-Aliveri

1) Euboea is a 'mosaic' of inhabitants

https://www.medievalroutes.gr/en/digital-exhibits/franks-venetians-and-catalans-in-central-greece/

- In the cities of Euboea, and particularly Chalkis, the number of inhabitants from the West increased, especially with Venetians and Lombard traders, as well as adventurers, who lived in the own settlements. The period was rocked by constant feuds and claims within the ruling class.

- The city of Negroponte, as Chalkis was then known, was highly multicultural, as were, most likely, Karystos and Oreon, where the local Orthodox population, the Latins, Venetians, Lombards and Jews all co-existed.

2) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians..."