Historians on the Ancient Macedonians

[Stevce]

I agree with you tchaiku, and the little 'Greek' writing found in antique Macedonia is in the Macedonian language using that script. Which was known as the Phonecian script.
I just say Greek for simplistic terms.

According to Herodotus
The Phoenicians who came with Cadmus . . . introduced into Greece, after their settlement in the country, a number of accomplishments, of which the most important was writing, an art till then, I think, unknown to the Greeks. At first they used the same characters as all the other Phoenicians, but as time went on, and they changed their language, they also changed the shape of their letters. At that period most of the Greeks in the neighborhood were Ionians; they were taught these letters by the Phoenicians and adopted them, with a few alterations, for their own use, continuing to refer to them as the Phoenician characters—as was only right, as the Phoenicians had introduced them. No to far fetched too think that other nations did the something similar such at the Macedonians, Tharcians, Illyrians.

[Amphipolis]

In Macedonia, if you go to the ancient cities, burial tombs there is no Greek writing. The few fragments they have found is indecipherable in Greek and the rest is from Roman times.

I thought more than half of the inscriptions are from burial tombs and all of them are in the order of a four digit number (thay includes Latin ones). No indecipherable ones.

[tchaiku]

8. A Non-Greek people spreading everywhere Greek Language and Culture,

9. A Non-Greek people building Greek cities,

12. A Non-Greek peope using the same architecture as Greeks

From Macedonia

[Carlin]

The areas where were born:
1) The ancient MACEDONIAN nation between 1200 – 700 B.C. and,
2) The LATINOMACEDONIAN (VLACH) language in the first centuries of the Roman Republic (160 B.C. – 330 A.D.)



Source / Map by Sokratis Liakos.

[Carlin]

Lucius Ampelius is spreading nationalist propaganda from the 3rd century.

The Liber Memorialis is an ancient book in Latin featuring an extremely concise summary—a kind of index—of universal history from earliest times to the reign of Trajan. It was written by Lucius Ampelius, who was possibly a tutor or schoolmaster. Nothing is known of him or of the date at which he lived; the times of Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, the beginning of the 3rd century have all been suggested. However, in Chapter V De Orbe Terrarum (The World), he wrote:

Main nations of Asia: Indian, Seric, Persian, Median, Parthian, Arabian, Bithynian, Phrygian, Cappadocian, Cilician, Syrian, Lydian. Main nations of Europe: Scythian, Sarmatian, Germanic, Dacian, Moesian, Thracian, Macedonian, Dalmatian, Pannonian, Illyrian, Graecian, Italian, Gallic, Spanish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Memorialis

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Ampelius/Liber_Memorialis*.html

Leo might have to go back to the drawing board.

[Amphipolis]

The areas where were born:
1) The ancient MACEDONIAN nation between 1200 – 700 B.C. and,
2) The LATINOMACEDONIAN (VLACH) language in the first centuries of the Roman Republic (160 B.C. – 330 A.D.)

Why did you insert this map since it is inexplicable (even for someone who can read Greek) as NO areas are actually noted.

I couldn't confirm that Sokratis Liakos was a historian (not much is known about him), though nothing is impossible.

[Carlin]

http://amspisoderi.blogspot.ca/2015/09/blog-post_22.html

http://www.idref.fr/179916866

Bibliography - Sokratis Liakos

ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ ΛΙΑΚΟΣ
Βιβλιογραφία

· Λιάκος, Σωκράτης, Η Ιλλυρική καταγωγή των αρχαίων Μακεδόνων. Θεσσαλονίκη 1979

http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/13441647._

https://www.politeianet.gr/sygrafeas/liakos-n-sokratis-20090

· Λιάκος, Σωκράτης, Η καταγωγή των Αρμάνων τουπίκλην Βλάχων. Θεσσαλονίκη 1968

· Λιάκος, Σωκράτης, Μακεδονοαρμανικά. Θεσσαλονίκη 1976

· Λιάκος, Σωκράτης, Παραμυθένια Ιστορία. Εταιρία τεύχος 17-18. Φλώρινα 1994

· Λιάκος, Σωκράτης, Οι Κουτσόβλαχοι είναι τα ύστατα και μόνα γνήσια λείψανα του Μακεδονικού έθνους (The Koutsovlachs are the ultimate and only genuine relics of the Macedonian nation). Ιστορικαί έρευναι. Εφημερίδα Καθημερινή 30-11-1939.

Other works:

Sokratis Liakos' "What were in reality the Sklavenians (=Asseclae) settlers of the Thessaloniki Theme.

Sokratis Liakos' , "Interpretation of seventy Sklavenian toponyms in Arkadia using the Latin-Celtic-Arvanite-Armanian languages".

Sokratis Liakos' "What were Ethno-Fyletically the AvaroSklavenians-protomedieval settlers of Peloponnesos"

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/manuscripts/search/results_n.cfm?NID=429&RID=&Y1=&Y2=

[Amphipolis]

I already knew Liakos' bibliography (thanks to your posts), I just don't know anything else about him. It seems he published his novels and essays himself, he has never written in a scientific journal and according to Google Scholar there are ZERO citations to his work, which remains unknown or no one in the world is interested, or he is not taken seriously.

The link shows that his books are present in the library of the University of Glasgow, unfortunately in the details it says because they were donated by him.

[Carlin]

I already knew Liakos' bibliography (thanks to your posts), I just don't know anything else about him. It seems he published his novels and essays himself, he has never written in a scientific journal and according to Google Scholar there are ZERO citations to his work, which remains unknown or no one in the world is interested, or he is not taken seriously.

The link shows that his books are present in the library of the University of Glasgow, unfortunately in the details it says because they were donated by him.

The following cite Liakos -

https://books.google.ca/books?id=mGdiAAAAMAAJ&q=Sokratis+Liakos&dq=Sokratis+Liakos&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

https://books.google.ca/books?id=01JoAAAAMAAJ&q=Sokratis+Liakos&dq=Sokratis+Liakos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmPuG-YbTAhWG54MKHZ_SBRYQ6AEIHDAA

As you can see, even your favourite Vlach author Asterios I. Kukudēs, who is a gemmologist and pedagogue, cites Liakos:

"Also valuable were certain Vlach-related works written at a time when no-one was interested in investigating and writing about the Vlachs, such as the writings of Sokratis Liakos, now a very old man indeed."

[tchaiku]

1) Ἀλέξανδρος τάδε· “ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, παραθήκην ὑμῖν τὰ ἔπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, ἀπόρρητα ποιεύμενος πρὸς μηδένα λέγειν ὑμέας ἄλλον ἢ Παυσανίην, μή με καὶ διαφθείρητε· οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἔλεγον, εἰ μὴ μεγάλως ἐκηδόμην συναπάσης τῆς Ἑλλάδος. αὐτός τε γὰρ Ἕλλην γένος εἰμὶ τὠρχαῖον καὶ ἀντ’ ἐλευθέρης δεδουλωμένην οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοιμι ὁρᾶν τὴν Ἑλλάδα. λέγω δὲ ὦν ὅτι Μαρδονίῳ τε καὶ τῇ στρατιῇ τὰ σφάγια οὐ δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι· πάλαι γὰρ ἂν ἐμάχεσθε. νῦν δέ οἱ δέδοκται τὰ μὲν σφάγια ἐᾶν χαίρειν, ἅμ’ ἡμέρῃ δὲ διαφωσκούσῃ συμβολὴν ποιέεσθαι· καταρρώδηκε γὰρ μὴ πλεῦνες συλλεχθῆτε, ὡς ἐγὼ εἰκάζω. πρὸς ταῦτα ἑτοιμάζεσθε. ἢν δὲ ἄρα ὑπερβάληται τὴν συμβολὴν Μαρδόνιος καὶ μὴ ποιέηται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες· ὀλιγέων γάρ σφι ἡμερέων λείπεται σιτία. ἢν δὲ ὑμῖν ὁ πόλεμος ὅδε κατὰ νόον τελευτήσῃ, μνησθῆναί τινα χρὴ καὶ ἐμεῦ ἐλευθερώσιος πέρι, ὃς Ἑλλήνων εἵνεκα οὕτω ἔργον παράβολον ἔργασμαι ὑπὸ προθυμίης, ἐθέλων ὑμῖν δηλῶσαι τὴν διάνοιαν τὴν Μαρδονίου, ἵνα μὴ ἐπιπέσωσι ὑμῖν ἐξαίφνης οἱ βάρβαροι μὴ προσδεκομένοισί κω. εἰμὶ δὲ Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μακεδών.” ὁ μὲν ταῦτα εἴπας ἀπήλαυνε ὀπίσω ἐς τὸ στρατόπεδον καὶ τὴν ἑωυτοῦ τάξιν. (Ht, " H", 9.45,)

2) ὁ μέν νυν τῶν Περσέων τούτων θάνατος οὕτω καταλαμφθεὶς ἐσιγήθη. Ἕλληνας δὲ εἶναι τούτους τοὺς ἀπὸ Περδίκκεω γεγονότας, κατά περ αὐτοὶ λέγουσι, αὐτός τε οὕτω τυγχάνω ἐπιστάμενος καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐν τοῖσι ὄπισθε λόγοισι ἀποδέξω ὡς εἰσὶ Ἕλληνες, πρὸς δὲ καὶ οἱ τὸν ἐν Ὀλυμπίῃ διέποντες ἀγῶνα Ἑλληνοδίκαι οὕτω ἔγνωσαν εἶναι. (Ht, ''H'' 5.22.1)

3) ἀποπέμπει δὲ καὶ εἰς Ἀθήνας τριακοσίας πανοπλίας Περσικὰς ἀνάθημα εἶναι τῇ Ἀθηνᾷ ἐν πόλει: καὶ ἐπίγραμμα ἐπιγραφῆναι ἐκέλευσε τόδε: Ἀλέξανδρος Φιλίππου καὶ οἱ Ἕλληνες πλὴν Λακεδαιμονίων ἀπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων τῶν τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούντων. (Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", I, 16, 7.0)

[tchaiku]

1) Ἀλέξανδρος τάδε• “ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, παραθήκην ὑμῖν τὰ ἔπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, ἀπόρρητα ποιεύμενος πρὸς μηδένα λέγειν ὑμέας ἄλλον ἢ Παυσανίην, μή με καὶ διαφθείρητε• οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἔλεγον, εἰ μὴ μεγάλως ἐκηδόμην συναπάσης τῆς Ἑλλάδος. αὐτός τε γὰρ Ἕλλην γένος εἰμὶ τὠρχαῖον καὶ ἀντ’ ἐλευθέρης δεδουλωμένην οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοιμι ὁρᾶν τὴν Ἑλλάδα. λέγω δὲ ὦν ὅτι Μαρδονίῳ τε καὶ τῇ στρατιῇ τὰ σφάγια οὐ δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι• πάλαι γὰρ ἂν ἐμάχεσθε. νῦν δέ οἱ δέδοκται τὰ μὲν σφάγια ἐᾶν χαίρειν, ἅμ’ ἡμέρῃ δὲ διαφωσκούσῃ συμβολὴν ποιέεσθαι• καταρρώδηκε γὰρ μὴ πλεῦνες συλλεχθῆτε, ὡς ἐγὼ εἰκάζω. πρὸς ταῦτα ἑτοιμάζεσθε. ἢν δὲ ἄρα ὑπερβάληται τὴν συμβολὴν Μαρδόνιος καὶ μὴ ποιέηται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• ὀλιγέων γάρ σφι ἡμερέων λείπεται σιτία. ἢν δὲ ὑμῖν ὁ πόλεμος ὅδε κατὰ νόον τελευτήσῃ, μνησθῆναί τινα χρὴ καὶ ἐμεῦ ἐλευθερώσιος πέρι, ὃς Ἑλλήνων εἵνεκα οὕτω ἔργον παράβολον ἔργασμαι ὑπὸ προθυμίης, ἐθέλων ὑμῖν δηλῶσαι τὴν διάνοιαν τὴν Μαρδονίου, ἵνα μὴ ἐπιπέσωσι ὑμῖν ἐξαίφνης οἱ βάρβαροι μὴ προσδεκομένοισί κω. εἰμὶ δὲ Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μακεδών.” ὁ μὲν ταῦτα εἴπας ἀπήλαυνε ὀπίσω ἐς τὸ στρατόπεδον καὶ τὴν ἑωυτοῦ τάξιν. (Herodotus, " H", 9.45,)

Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian.


2) ὁ μέν νυν τῶν Περσέων τούτων θάνατος οὕτω καταλαμφθεὶς ἐσιγήθη. Ἕλληνας δὲ εἶναι τούτους τοὺς ἀπὸ Περδίκκεω γεγονότας, κατά περ αὐτοὶ λέγουσι, αὐτός τε οὕτω τυγχάνω ἐπιστάμενος καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐν τοῖσι ὄπισθε λόγοισι ἀποδέξω ὡς εἰσὶ Ἕλληνες, πρὸς δὲ καὶ οἱ τὸν ἐν Ὀλυμπίῃ διέποντες ἀγῶνα Ἑλληνοδίκαι οὕτω ἔγνωσαν εἶναι. (Herodotus, ''H'' 5.22.1)

Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.

3) ἀποπέμπει δὲ καὶ εἰς Ἀθήνας τριακοσίας πανοπλίας Περσικὰς ἀνάθημα εἶναι τῇ Ἀθηνᾷ ἐν πόλει: καὶ ἐπίγραμμα ἐπιγραφῆναι ἐκέλευσε τόδε: Ἀλέξανδρος Φιλίππου καὶ οἱ Ἕλληνες πλὴν Λακεδαιμονίων ἀπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων τῶν τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούντων.
(Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", I, 16, 7.0)

To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians", present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia".

4) ἀλλ᾽ εἰ διὰ μίαν ταύτην χρείαν Αἰτωλοῖς χάρις ὀφείλεται, τίνος καὶπηλίκης δεῖ τιμῆς ἀξιοῦσθαι Μακεδόνας, οἳ τὸν πλείω τοῦ βίου χρόνον οὐπαύονται διαγωνιζόμενοι πρὸς τοὺς βαρβάρους ὑπὲρ τῆς τῶν Ἑλλήνωνἀσφαλείας;

But if for this one service some gratitude is owing to the Aetolians; what high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? (Plb. 9.35.2)

[maco2envy]

This one is pretty new:

Allowing that there were living in ancient Macedonia throughout the Archaic, Classical, and Hellenistic periods people who were Greek, people who were akin to Greeks, and people who were not Greek, if one seeks historical truth about an ancient people who have left no definitive record, one may have to let go of the hope for a definitive answer. The ancient Greeks themselves differentiated between “Greeks” and “Macedonians,” and if the difference was not one of written language, then it ought to be constructive to consider what factors did differentiate the Macedonians—in the opinion of ancient Greeks. 45

C.J.King, Ancient Macedonia, Routledge (2018)

Therefore it is still accepted up to this date that the Greek's shifting the focus of the "name" dispute to 2000+ year old ancient history is obsolete, there is no definitive answer and there will never be in regards of the origin of the ancient Macedonians. This all remains a smoke screen of what actually matters, and that is unpunished Greek crimes in the 20th century against indigenous Macedonians.

[Carlin]

Who were the Mysomacedones (?)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=NnGvHLvUYEoC&pg=PA238&dq=Mysomacedones&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifwInD4rbcAhUh44MKHXpGCb8Q6AEIPTAE#v=onepage&q=Mysomacedones&f=false

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&ei=hplWW62oDuzKjwTrnYnwAg&q=Mysomacedones&oq=Mysomacedones&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3778.3877.0.4248.2.2.0.0.0.0.85.158.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.TIMLuLHzip4

[Carlin]

URL:

http://ireteslaw.ispan.waw.pl/bitstream/handle/123456789/570/Origin%20of%20the%20Slavs.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y