The Macedonian Minority in Albania and Kosovo

[Uskana]

1. I use the Italics for the "Macedonians" in Albania only. Many of them identify as Bulgarian as well.

2. Blah blah.

3. To converse with my fellow countrymen. If we're sharing a country I think open dialogue is a good thing.

4. Macedonian is a Slavic language. What's wrong with that statement I made?

And thank you for cursing my mother. Very lady like. Tell me, are most Macedonian women this vulgar?

[Uskana]

Uskana, Unless you know more then Pustec Mayor Edmond Temelko then its over 200,000 but strangely the Albanian Government says that no more then 5000 Macedonians live in Albania.

So the president of some Macedonian organization says it's 200,000 and you believe him? Well some Albanians claim to make up to 40% of Macedonia, I guess that number is correct as well?

[Mastika]

There are not 200,000 or 40,000 of "Macedonians" in Albania. There numbers do not exceed a few thousand. These "Macedonians" (sometimes they claim to be Bulgarian as well, depending which embassy pays them) are used as a ploy from the Macedonian side to limit the rights of Albanians in Macedonia. These Muslim Macedonian are probably looked down upon most Orthodox Macedonians, if it were not for the Albanian issue in Macedonia, the majority of the Orthodox Macedonians would not give 2 sh*ts about them.

Yes there are around 40,000 Macedonians living in Albania. I did a village-by-village summary on here a while back and arrived at a figure close to that one. There is not 200,000 however a figure ranging from 30-50,000 is reasonable.

Prolet, Edmond Temelko is no expert demographer and bases his figures on what he wants the community to believe, not the truth. Please show me some evidence of 200,000 Macedonians living in Albania. It is comparable to the 700,000 Macedonians in Australia or the Million in Greece.

As for the groups you mentioned Prolet, many of them change their identity where the wind blows. Personally I know a few "Turks" in Prespa, Macedonia. They claim to be Turks, yet name their kids Arben and intermarry with the Albanians. They are remains of the Ottoman Time. The Torbesh are a group that swing where the wind blows, they claim to be Macedonian Muslim some days and Albanians other days. I don't care too much for their group.

True, many due change their identity. These people speak the Macedonian language, observe Macedonian customs and originate from Macedonia, What else can they seriously be?

But the Macedonians in Mavrovo aren't exactly "Macedonian" either. Many of the older folks still speak Albanian. The newer generation do not and those that live in Shkup today do not either. Even in Reka there is a small Albanian Orthodox community that has not assimilated and still marry with other Albanians. It makes me wonder what happened to the rest of the Albanian Orthodox in Macedonia.

It is clear that you have very little knowledge about the true demographics of Macedonia. The Mavrovo villages are largely empty, there is not even 600 inhabitants in the 20 villages you are refering to . These "Orthodox Albanians" included many Macedonians who were being Albanised, which is present in commentaries from 1900. The population was bilingual speaking both Macedonian and Albanian even in 1900. These people over the last 100 years have fully assimilated into Macedonian life and I am sure that they would consider themselves Macedonian and Macedonian only. It is offensive that you try to claim them as not being "exactly" Macedonian.

As for the rest of the Orthodox Albanians in Macedonia, well they had no other settlements. That is it. Maybe a few living in the cities, however they had no more settlements of their own. (Only a few in Aegean Macedonia)

Where is this Albanian Orthodox community in Reka? Which villages do they live in?

[Onur]

As for the groups you mentioned Prolet, many of them change their identity where the wind blows. Personally I know a few "Turks" in Prespa, Macedonia. They claim to be Turks, yet name their kids Arben and intermarry with the Albanians. They are remains of the Ottoman Time. The Torbesh are a group that swing where the wind blows, they claim to be Macedonian Muslim some days and Albanians other days. I don't care too much for their group.

Mate, no one with Turkish self consciousness names his/her kid with a name like "Arben"(is this Albanian name?). No offense, don't get me wrong but Turkish people gives high importance to the name of their kids and "Arben" has no meaning or any value at all for a Turk. Well maybe if a mother or father is Albanian, they might give double name for their kid, one Albanian, one Turkish name.

Also they probably marry whoever they like, regardless of their social identity because i know, majority of Turkish people doesn't give a damn about ethnicity or race. So, this might be a different mentality than the current norm in Balkans but thats the case with the Turks. This is mainly because, in the eyes of an ordinary Turk, there is no major difference between any social group in Balkans. For them, all have similar food, music, dance, appearance, mentality etc.

On the other hand, culture is another story for us. While we don't give a damn about ethnicity, culture is so important for the Turks and the name of their kid represents an important part of this culture.

The expulsion of 350.000 Turks from Bulgaria at 1989 is a good example to that. These people left their 550+ years homeland just because Bulgars tried to force them to chance their Turkish names and accept Bulgar identity.

[Uskana]

Yes there are around 40,000 Macedonians living in Albania. I did a village-by-village summary on here a while back and arrived at a figure close to that one. There is not 200,000 however a figure ranging from 30-50,000 is reasonable.

Ok, if you say so.

True, many due change their identity. These people speak the Macedonian language, observe Macedonian customs and originate from Macedonia, What else can they seriously be?

Many Torbesh have intermarried with Albanians. Near Kercova there is a village called Bacista. They speak Macedonians but claim to be Albanians. This group is looked down upon, like the other Torbesh by the Albanian community.

It is clear that you have very little knowledge about the true demographics of Macedonia. The Mavrovo villages are largely empty, there is not even 600 inhabitants in the 20 villages you are refering to . These "Orthodox Albanians" included many Macedonians who were being Albanised, which is present in commentaries from 1900. The population was bilingual speaking both Macedonian and Albanian even in 1900. These people over the last 100 years have fully assimilated into Macedonian life and I am sure that they would consider themselves Macedonian and Macedonian only. It is offensive that you try to claim them as not being "exactly" Macedonian.

I don't claim to be an expert, but from I known many of these villages are empty because many of them have moved to Shkup. I don't know much about these people since there numbers are small, but the common sentiment in the Albanian community is they were Albanian but today they claim to be Macedonian.

Where is this Albanian Orthodox community in Reka? Which villages do they live in?

I'm not exactly sure, but there numbers are small.

[Uskana]

Mate, no one with Turkish self consciousness names his/her kid with a name like "Arben"(is this Albanian name?). No offense, don't get me wrong but Turkish people gives high importance to the name of their kids and "Arben" has no meaning or any value at all for a Turk. Well maybe if a mother or father is Albanian, they might give double name for their kid, one Albanian, one Turkish.

That was my point more or less, the majority of Turks in Macedonia are most likely Albanian or Islamized Macedonians. Arben is an Albanian name and it makes no sense for a Turk to use that name. Many of these Turks in Macedonia are remains of the Ottoman period who probably had a high position or lived in the city where Turkish was spoken. My point is these "Turks" in Macedonia are Turkish speakers, not necessarily Turks.

Here are some videos of Turks in Macedonia:

YouTube - Rumeli Turkuleri-Gostivar

YouTube - MAMUŞA-KOSOVA-TÜRK-GOSTİVAR(ŞARKISI)

YouTube - Gelin evden gidiyorr.... Resne Makedonya 11-07-09

YouTube - KGSD-Kardeslik-Resne-Makedonya

YouTube - makedonya uskup

What are you thoughts on the videos?

Also they probably marry whoever they like, regardless of their social identity because i know, majority of Turkish people doesn't give a damn about ethnicity or race. So, this might be a different mentality than the current norm in Balkans but thats the case with the Turks. On the other hand, culture is another story for us. While we don't give a damn about ethnicity, culture is so important for the Turks and the name of their kid represents an important part of the culture.

I know this. The "Turks" in Western Turkey are a mix of people from the Balkans and Caucus region.

The expulsion of 350.000 Turks from Bulgaria at 1989 is a good example to that. These people left their 550+ years homeland just because Bulgars tried to force them to chance their Turkish names and accept Bulgar identity.

Many Albanians left for Turkey throughout the 20th century. In the 50's in Macedonia, many Albanians left for Turkey due to policies of Rankovic and other Yugoslav Authorities. It was attempt to depopulate Albanian areas. Those that left for Turkey were forced to sign papers claiming they were Turks and they would not return.

Kosovar Albanians also left for Turkey as well. But I believed they were expelled, unlike the Albanians in Macedonia that left due to pressure from the Yugoslav authorities

[Onur]

That was my point more or less, the majority of Turks in Macedonia are most likely Albanian or Islamized Macedonians. Arben is an Albanian name and it makes no sense for a Turk to use that name. Many of these Turks in Macedonia are remains of the Ottoman period who probably had a high position or lived in the city where Turkish was spoken. My point is these "Turks" in Macedonia are Turkish speakers, not necessarily Turks.

It`s well known and proven fact that numerous Turks migrated into Balkans(from Aegean Macedonia to Hungary) after 11th century `till 19th century. The ones who came before Ottoman reign converted into Christianity like Gagauz people and some of them has been assimilated but the ones after Ottoman reign mostly preserved their culture. So, if what you say is true, then where are these Turkish people now? They surely didn't vaporize, right?.

Also you have a mentality like "These Turkish speakers looks like Albanians. Turks are foreigners, therefore these people must be Albanians". While you claim that your Albanian people are indigenous in Macedonia, you consider Turkish people as foreigners even tough they are living there since 15th century or 16th, maybe even 13th, god knows since when. These people lived there for 500+ years mate. You calculate how many generation it was. So in that case, isn't it normal that these people looks like Albanians or Macedonians? OR maybe you Albanians look like and act like these Turks!? since these Turks are the ones who bring davul/tapan, zurna, tulum, boza, coffee, sarma to the Balkans, right? AND maybe you Albanians or Macedonians teach them to dance like in these videos, god knows again! I think you can understand what i meant. Not only you, most people in Balkans have your mentality and point of view vs Turkish speaking people. I don't know why.

I know this. The "Turks" in Western Turkey are a mix of people from the Balkans and Caucus region.

Do you think you are "that" different than us on this? Do you really think any nation in Balkans can claim to be homogeneous? If anyone says that, be sure that he is lying, like the modern Greeks does. I believe thats why Balkans is a mess in ethnic sense since Ottoman regime ended. Western European ethnic mentality never works here but politics forces everyone to implement it and now you claim that they are Albanians, others claim that they are Macedonians, Bulgars, Greeks, Bosnians, Turks blah blah...

On the other hand, our Turkishness doesn't come from blood, anyone with Turkish self consciousness who look like similar to us, is a Turk for us, even if he is mixed in ethnic sense, this doesn't concern anyone. Thats why we don't have any identity crisis in Turkey unlike some Balkan countries. We know who we are and we don't feel ashamed of ourselves. Racial mixing was never taboo for us and is not taboo now either. All the millets in Balkans are similar people for us. Neither of us are black African, Arabs or western Europeans anyway

Many Albanians left for Turkey throughout the 20th century. In the 50's in Macedonia, many Albanians left for Turkey due to policies of Rankovic and other Yugoslav Authorities. It was attempt to depopulate Albanian areas. Those that left for Turkey were forced to sign papers claiming they were Turks and they would not return.

Kosovar Albanians also left for Turkey as well. But I believed they were expelled, unlike the Albanians in Macedonia that left due to pressure from the Yugoslav authorities

Yes, there are over a million Albanians in Turkey. Already in a recently announced statistics, about 35 million people in Turkey have Balkanic roots. I read an article about the 1950-1960 Macedonian immigrants few weeks ago. The ones expelled by Tito regime. It seems that the only requirement to be able to come to Turkey was basic Turkish language knowledge and self declaratory of being Turk. In the article, it was noted like government officers didn't even questioned their ethnicity to not further humiliate them because they have been expelled and nowhere to go. After they came to Turkey, officials asked a question like "What was their mothertongue" instead. According to statistics, %47 of them said that their mothertongue is Turkish, about %19 reports as Albanian, %34 Macedonian. Also it was saying that many people tried to come turkey at that time, without any knowledge of Turkish language but these people has been denied by the officers if they cant prove that they are Turkish with birth certificates and family lineages.


Btw, it`s very well known in Turkey that the Albanians always tried to assimilate Turkish people in Macedonia and especially in Kosovo. They tried to exploit our easiness in ethnic and racial conception but i don't know how much they succeeded since i know that no one can easily assimilate a Turk. The proof is the Gagauz people. They are christians for 800+ years, Hapsburg Empire ruled them, then Stalin expelled them, forcibly changed their names to slavic ones, educated them in Russian only for 80+ years but they still speak Turkish today. I heard that Gagauzs are the target of stupid Bulgars now and they are trying to sell them Bulgar/EU passports if they declare that they are Bulgars, sigh

[Onur]

Racial mixing was never taboo for us and is not taboo now either. All the millets in Balkans are similar people for us. Neither of us are black African, Arabs or western Europeans anyway

I think i better clarify this. Ethnicity is not taboo for us but vast cultural difference can be a major issue. For example, i don't think more than %3-4 of Balkan immigrants marry with a Kurd or any other middle-easterner here because there are vast cultural differences between us. For example an Azerbaijani Turk is culturally closer to us than a Kurd. Eastern Anatolian Turks can get along with the Kurds and vice versa.

So, we have our own limits too but different limits and criteria then you guys have

[Risto the Great]

I don't understand that Slavic language. Please use Albanian or English with me next time.

Sorry Uskana.
I have a belief that all Macedonian nationals should understand Macedonian. Maybe you should come back here when you can. The Macedonians in Albania can speak Albanian. It seems appropriate, I am sure you won't agree.

[Uskana]

Yes, there are over a million Albanians in Turkey. Already in a recently announced statistics, about 35 million people in Turkey have Balkanic roots. I read an article about the 1950-1960 Macedonian immigrants few weeks ago. The ones expelled by Tito regime. It seems that the only requirement to be able to come to Turkey was basic Turkish language knowledge and self declaratory of being Turk. In the article, it was noted like government officers didn't even questioned their ethnicity to not further humiliate them because they have been expelled and nowhere to go. After they came to Turkey, officials asked a question like "What was their mothertongue" instead. According to statistics, %47 of them said that their mothertongue is Turkish, about %19 reports as Albanian, %34 Macedonian. Also it was saying that many people tried to come turkey at that time, without any knowledge of Turkish language but these people has been denied by the officers if they cant prove that they are Turkish with birth certificates and family lineages.

That's quite interesting. I'm assuming it's a Turkish source? Did the report explain why they were expelled?

PS:

The Albanian figure in Turkey could be as high as 5 million. I would argue that the Turkish state is more prone to assimilating others since you're whole country is based on assimilation.

[Uskana]

Sorry Uskana.
I have a belief that all Macedonian nationals should understand Macedonian. Maybe you should come back here when you can. The Macedonians in Albania can speak Albanian. It seems appropriate, I am sure you won't agree.

To be fair, I was born in Manastir, Macedonia but was raised in the US. I don't speak Macedonian since I never attended school in Macedonia. But looking around the forum, I don't think many of you can speak or read it either. Maybe you Australian Macedonians need to go back to your motherland more often?

[Onur]

That's quite interesting. I'm assuming it's a Turkish source? Did the report explain why they were expelled?

Yes ofc it`s a Turkish source since all the immigrants have been questioned before and after they came here.

Why they have been expelled? Maybe just because they were Turks or speak Turkish. You know Turks are generally not welcomed in whole Balkans for like 100+ years. As for the case in 1950 Tito regime; 7-8 Turkish people hanged, 70-80 have been imprisoned, mostly teachers. Turkish schools, newspapers, magazines banned then Tito asked Turkish government to accept them to Turkey.

PS: The Albanian figure in Turkey could be as high as 5 million. I would argue that the Turkish state is more prone to assimilating others since you're whole country is based on assimilation.

Yes maybe more than a million but 5 million sounds quite exaggerated number but dunno.

Mate, assimilation is usually done by force. Turkey doesn't assimilate anyone. There are people here still speaking Macedonian, Albanian etc. and still continue their own customs. They are the colors of our society and no one interferes with them. We love them who and how they are. Well ofc there are some of them willingly forgets his own culture but they are so few. Majority of them knows who they are. Plus, we didn't call neither of them. They usually escaped here from death or they have been expelled. We just welcomed them because we had a responsibility to all of them from the Ottoman era.

I can guess that this may sound weird or maybe even ugly to you but this is the way it is here for at least 600+ years and we are happy with it by staying away from western European sense of ethnicity and stupid identity crises. Thats why we are not an European country in the concept of European Union but we are not an Asian country either. It`s something like the current policy of the USA but ofc we have this common policy in our society centuries older than them.

To be fair, I was born in Manastir, Macedonia but was raised in the US. I don't speak Macedonian since I never attended school in Macedonia. But looking around the forum, I don't think many of you can speak or read it either. Maybe you Australian Macedonians need to go back to your motherland more often?

Got ya now . There are 20 year old people here who has born in Turkey and probably never saw their parents motherland, Macedonia but their grandparents teaches them Macedonian or they learn it at the associations or language courses. These 20 year olds can speak Macedonian and they know their own culture.

NOW, Which one assimilates??? USA or Turkey? Btw, how is your Albanian skills? Can you speak and write properly? If not, then you better question USA`s policy rather than questioning the 600+ year old Turkish policy.

[Uskana]

Yes ofc it`s a Turkish source since all the immigrants have been questioned before and after they came here.

Why they have been expelled? Maybe just because they were Turks or speak Turkish. You know Turks are generally not welcomed in whole Balkans for like 100+ years. As for the case in 1950 Tito regime; 7-8 Turkish people hanged, 70-80 have been imprisoned, mostly teachers. Turkish schools, newspapers, magazines banned then Tito asked Turkish government to accept them to Turkey.

I understand, but I will still contend the majority of these people were not "Turks" but were Albanian. Of course the source you mention contradicts this info. Like I mentioned, my mother's uncle barely knew any Turkish and he was allowed in Turkey. He had issues coming back though.

Did this policy of knowing Turkish apply to the Kosovar Albanians that were expelled to Turkey?

Yes maybe more than a million but 5 million sounds quite exaggerated number but dunno.

1 million were deported or moved to Turkey in the 20th century alone. I think there could be up to 5 million with some Albanian heritage. I believe some Turkish official made this claim when he visited Kosova a few years ago.

Mate, assimilation is usually done by force. Turkey doesn't assimilate anyone. There are people here still speaking Macedonian, Albanian etc. and still continue their own customs. They are the colors of our society and no one interferes with them. We love them who and how they are. Well ofc there are some of them willingly forgets his own culture but they are so few. Majority of them knows who they are.

I would argue the Turkish gov't does not provide these people with schools in their native language. I have heard there are schools in some areas in Turkey, but for a population that large, more could be done. In Prizen, Turkish is an official language and schools are provided for Turks. Turkish representation, Turkish tv channel, radio station, newspaper and so forth. And their numbers are much smaller compared to the Albanians in Turkey.

Got ya now . There are 20 year old people here who has born in Turkey and probably never saw their parents motherland, Macedonia but their grandparents teaches them Macedonian or they learn it at the associations or language courses. These 20 year olds can speak Macedonian and they know their own culture.

Ok whatever you say lol. I know many Albanians in Turkey that can't speak Albanian let alone write in it. They tend to be more Turkish then Albanian and their culture and mentality is different then the Albanians in the Balkans. Turkish society for ya and the brainwashing they have done to them.

The majority Albanians in Turkey that can still speak the language come from villages which tend to be majority Albanian.

PS:

Can you provide some links to the Macedonians in Turkey. Maybe some festivals, meetings, celebrations they hold, songs. I've seen the following for Albanians.

NOW, Which one assimilates??? USA or Turkey? Btw, how is your Albanian skills? Can you speak and write properly? If not, then you better question USA`s policy rather than questioning the 600+ year old Turkish policy.

I can speak it fluently (I would travel back to my homeland almost every year when I was younger) and I can write in it easily since Albanian is phonetic and it is written exactly the way it is spoken. I do have some issues when I speak with Albanians from different areas since the Albanian language is rich with different dialects. But with someone from my area, I understand 99% what they say and can converse with them easily.

[Onur]

I understand, but I will still contend the majority of these people were not "Turks" but were Albanian.

You sound like the modern Greeks now. Well, ok then, when a Greek speaks like that i usually respond like "Mickey mouse and Jesus Christ was Greek too, right?" I think same response can apply to you too now.

Did this policy of knowing Turkish apply to the Kosovar Albanians that were expelled to Turkey?

Most definitely yes. Whatta hell we would do with all the Albanians in Turkey without any Turkish knowledge, Turkish consciousness and family linage? We are already big fat 73 million populated country and you know every person who migrates here means more money had to be spent from the government. I hope you wont question my country now for accepting your poor expelled uncle without any money. Turkey gave them life and opportunity here. Plus i don't think that your uncle came here without any Turk in his family linage.

I know many Albanians in Turkey that can't speak Albanian let alone write in it. They tend to be more Turkish then Albanian and their culture and mentality is different then the Albanians in the Balkans. Turkish society for ya and the brainwashing they have done to them.

Then it`s their fault or desire, however you call it. No one stops them to learn Albanian here and they can leave Turkey for Albania whenever they like. Like i said, we already got 73 million population and even if there are 5 million Albanian here(which i don't believe), it`s nothing for us, still less than %7. So, if you are unhappy with this, then call them to USA and let the Americans "brainwash" your uncle. Btw, you said that the Albanians settled between Kurds!!, if thats the case, we would be extra happy if your uncle takes few Kurds with him if he goes.

PS: Can you provide some links to the Macedonians in Turkey. Maybe some festivals, meetings, celebrations they hold, songs. I've seen the following for Albanians.

There are 100s of videos in youtube and few of them posted in this forum too. Search for it with the tags "Macedonia, Turkey, Izmir, Bursa" and then you can find.

[Uskana]

You sound like the modern Greeks now. Well, ok then, when a Greek speaks like that i usually respond like "Mickey mouse and Jesus Christ was Greek too, right?" I think same response can apply to you too now.

That's a cheap ploy. Compare me to a Greek to win some sympathy on this board (believe me you don't need to compare me to a Greek to get support against me.)

Most definitely yes. Whatta hell we would do with all the Albanians in Turkey without any Turkish knowledge, Turkish consciousness and family linage? We are already big fat 73 million populated country and you know every person who migrates here means more money had to be spent from the government. I hope you wont question my country now for accepting your poor expelled uncle without any money. Turkey gave them life and opportunity here. Plus i don't think that your uncle came here without any Turk in his family linage.

The population of Turkey was barely 20 million in the 1950's. And here's a reason why you would take them in:

rkey wants to use them to increase the population of parts of Anatolia and around Kurdistan, especially Diyarbakir, Elazig, and Yozgat, which are worse for agriculture than the areas the deportees left. Some settle in Bursa, Istanbul, Tekirdag, Izmir, Kocaeli, and Ekisehir.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_40

Then it`s their fault or desire, however you call it. No one stops them to learn Albanian here and they can leave Turkey for Albania whenever they like. Like i said, we already got 73 million population and even if there are 5 million Albanian here(which i don't believe), it`s nothing for us, still less than %7. So, if you are unhappy with this, then call them to USA and let the Americans "brainwash" your uncle. Btw, you said that the Albanians settled between Kurds!!, if thats the case, we would be extra happy if your uncle takes few Kurds with him if he goes.

My uncle was European looking, definately no Turkish lineage. Like I said, today they're Turks. Brainwashed Turks. Ironic that many Albanians that emigrated to the West still return back to visit their motherland. Not the case with the Albanians from Turkey. What does this say about Turkey?

There are 100s of videos in youtube and few of them posted in this forum too. Search for it with the tags "Macedonia, Turkey, Izmir, Bursa" and then you can find.

I don't know Turkish to search for the correct key words, but all I found was some Macedonian playing the accordion in Izmir. I couldn't find any Macedonian assemblies or celebrations in Turkey, maybe with the Macedonian flag and maybe even some Macedonian speaking. But since you say they exist, I'll take your word for it.